[Programming] C+=

Discussion in 'General Lounge' started by Galenmereth, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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  2. Shaz

    Shaz Veteran Veteran

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    Good grief! Words fail me.


    C+= would be C-plus-assignment.


    C plus equality would be C+==.


    If you're going to create a programming language, you'd better understand them first ;)
     
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  3. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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    Obviously not enought though has been put into the naming. Good thing there's been put a lot of thought in guidelines, like:

    • Programs are never to be "forked", as the word has clear misogynistic tendencies and is deeply problematic. Instead, programmers may never demand "forking", but ask for the program to voluntarily give permission. "Forking" will henceforth be called "consenting", and it is entirely up to the program to decide if the consent stands valid, even after the "birthing" of the program.
    and

    • All functions and procedures are now called lobbying, because actually doing things functionally and with clear-defined procedures is a Patriarchal construct and thus problematic.
    :D
     
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  4. Shaz

    Shaz Veteran Veteran

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    my brain just exploded!


    No more! PLEASE, no more!
     
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  5. djDarkX

    djDarkX Retro & Remastered Music Guru Veteran

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    I won't lie.  I lol'd.
     
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  6. Andar

    Andar Veteran Veteran

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    Do you know the worst part of that?

    You can't even tell if they're joking or really think in this way, especially because I've heard too often from people who really think that way...
     
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  7. Yato

    Yato (aka Racheal) Veteran

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    I'd like to think that they're joking because there is no way the language could even begin to function.
     
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  8. djDarkX

    djDarkX Retro & Remastered Music Guru Veteran

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    I think it's more an ideology of the language more than a new programming language.  That or you guys could be right and she's just messing with people.  The idea itself is interesting...but trying to break the already established norm of the C++ structure is near impossible.
     
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  9. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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    The article linked to in the OP (http://www.hastac.org/blogs/ari-schlesinger/2013/11/26/feminism-and-programming-languages) is actually real (at least the website checks out as serious), but C+= is just brilliant satire, managing to pinpoint exactly what's wrong with a lot of "feminist" movements. You see, those people don't want equality anymore; they misinterpret the meaning of the word willfully. They want feminism. The only reason I dare to say this as a man (not that I'm afraid, but because I fear I'm biased as I am not female) is that I have talked about this topic a ton with some really intelligent women, and they said I was allowed to have this opinion because they share it.
     
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  10. DiamondandPlatinum3

    DiamondandPlatinum3 Veteran Veteran

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    I think I'll stick with the C++ Master Race and continue to fork my OS, thank you very much.
     
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  11. Confederacy

    Confederacy Veteran Veteran

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    Oh thank goodness, for a second I thought this was real.
     
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  12. Engr. Adiktuzmiko

    Engr. Adiktuzmiko Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy' Veteran

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    I thought it was C-plus-equal
     
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  13. Zeriab

    Zeriab Huggins! Veteran

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    I had a good laugh, thank you ^^

    @Galenmereth:

    Come now... Feminists are pro female. It lies in the word. Gender equality arguments can be used as tool among the less sincere.

    If they truly believe in gender equality they are not feminists.
     
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  14. Tsukihime

    Tsukihime Veteran Veteran

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    It's not real? =/
     
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  15. Dr.Yami

    Dr.Yami 。◕‿◕。 Developer

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    I came to IGDA at my place once and met some game programmers who were female. I think gender does not matter there :3
     
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  16. mithcd

    mithcd Veteran Veteran

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    I thought this was just plain and simple "C Plus Plus"? 
     
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  17. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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    Yeah you're absolutely right :) The reason I said it was because people keep confusing feminism with the fight for equality, which it isn't, but it's become almost synonymous in a lot of media.

    No, it's clever satire in response to this article (which is real): http://www.hastac.org/blogs/ari-schlesinger/2013/11/26/feminism-and-programming-languages

    You're right; it shouldn't. Sadly, society and paradigms seem to keep getting in the way, which is a real shame; as a male programmer I feel that our "field" (broadly speaking) is in dire need of more women, because having worked together with women on bigger design related projects, I know for a fact that women often look at things differently from men - inherently - which lead to even better solutions. No matter how you look at it, women are different than men biologically; we should embrace that. It doesn't mean we should force every kind of workplace to have 50/50 splits (it doesn't make sense either way), but we shouldn't have cultures that scare women away from jobs either...

    Paradoxically, this is what I feel is the absolute worst part of a lot of feminist movements: these movements try to make it so that women and men are completely the same, as if there are no biological differences between the sexes. But that is ridiculous, and wrong, and it causes more societal problems as it continues to misinform. Women and men are different; equality can only be achieved when we acknowledge this, but give women the exact same rights (including equal paychecks), and respect, as men in any field. And it also means that there should be much more flexibility when it comes to things like the mother role. Personally I feel that being a full time home staying mom - for women that want that, and some do - should receive a lot more support from society. The kids are our future; to cause them undue psychological harm just because we want to pidgeonhole people into roles is madness. And if men want to take on this role (you know, after the child no longer needs to be breast fed obviously...) should also be supported. I know several men who would love to stay home, where their wives want to continue working. Instead they're forced to work both of them, and the child must be watched by a nanny.

    Equality between the sexes is still a large societal problem that we're far from tackling, because its problems are deeper than uneven pay; it's about our stigmas related to the gender roles. Feminism is not a solution to these problems, and might just make it worse.
     
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  18. PentagonBuddy

    PentagonBuddy Out To Lunch Veteran

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    The github file (deleted, but alive and well elsewhere) linked in the OP? Yeah, it's a parody. For any folks who might still be wondering.


    The author, Arielle Schlesinger, directly states "As a student of Technology and Social Change, I am currently exploring what a feminist programing language would look like for my thesis.". For any folks who might not know how thesis projects work. She's taking topics she's interested in and doing thorough work exploring them for some kind of degree. I thought I'd clarify for anyone who might still earnestly think this is to "smash the toxic patriarchy".


    But that's not really the issue here - Galenmereth has already said it's a parody.

    This mysterious "they" - the "feminists", who are they? What are these mysterious creatures? Their unknowable designs? This mysterious... feminist agenda?


    If you ask Schlesinger, whose work prompted this discussion, she says "It might help to talk about what feminism means to me, as feminism means different things to different people. bell hooks defines feminism in Feminism is for Everybody as “ a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression.” I want to live in a world where people are not marginalized based on their appearance, birth, beliefs, or spirituality."


    This is not stating that women are superior to men. Very rarely will you see women who identify as feminists and believe that women are superior. Here's a someone else talking about the "pro-female" aspect of feminism.


    If you think feminists as a general term are pro-female, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you believe this implies they are anti-male by definition. This is the belief I'm inferring from your posts. So here's someone discussing, very roughly, why people believe feminism hates men. I don't agree 100% with this article, but I'm willing to put it on the table; my problems with it aren't really topical at the moment.


    Here's a short, 40 second vid if you're not in the mood for walls of text. I do apologize for the length of this post. It might not seem like a topical vid, but I'm linking it because here's the creator responding to criticisms:

    I'll go on record saying, again, I don't agree entirely with Benson here, but it's not relevant to the point I'm making - this thread is making feminism out as some big, man-hating specter when that's so far from the truth it hurts.

    Scott Benson again, an excerpt from a larger bit clarifying the asterisk on feminists*
    If you want to go into deeper, Inception-levels about whether or not feminists hate men, here.

    But really, that's just a small slice. I'm sure you've either met or seen self-identified feminists (and I am NOT going to play the game of is this "real" feminism or not) who come across as incredibly toxic to men. For all I know, they were incredibly rude to you and it was very unpleasant. Not all feminists are like that, but the ones who are? Often have quite a great deal of reasons as to why. Reasons that might be good to consider sometime.


    Feminism is not pro-female. Feminism, as an entire movement, does not hate men. Individual feminists might, but the movement as a whole (and I will back this up with a mountain of historical examples, if need be) does not focus on hating or working to disenfranchise men. Even the ones who explicitly say "I hate men" usually have reasons that include "men spend a great deal of their time harassing me, insulting me, and generally treating me poorly", reasons that come from lived experience and literal years of dealing with men who are shitty to them. If you don't want to be considered one of "those" men? Don't act like them.


    Things that will very frequently cause a feminist to dislike you: portraying the feminist movement as unreasonable, militant, and ridiculous through "satire" like 4-chan's version what feminist programming would look like. And then gathering around to mock feminism and the very idea of something like a "feminist coding language".

    I know intelligent women, myself. Women who disagree! I assure you, as you are able to find women who agree with you, there will be women who agree with me, women who don't care about the topic, women who are terribly confused, women who are very certain about whatever view they might have, because women are not one, singular, monolithic group.


    It does not matter that you know women who agree with you. They do not represent the voices of all women. Nor does my voice, but I'm not stating that I'm the definitive voice on any topic. You're "allowed" to have whatever opinions you want. Other people are allowed to think those opinions are capital B Bad ones.

    Zeriab did hit on a good point: the language of gender equality, and in general the language of social justice (those terrifying words like "privilege" or "oppression" you might run into during your travels through the internet) can be put to some truly awful ends. There are a lot of very valid, very serious critiques you can make about mainstream, modern feminism. I'm not interested in having that discussion at this time and place, especially with folks who mock the movement in its entirety.


    Those critiques? They have more to do with feminist spaces often being ones where racism, homophobia, and all kinds of "fun" things that end in -phobia or -ism run rampant. As a real, living breathing person who deals with things in my life other than gender issues, yeah, I often feel unwelcome in feminist spaces. Feminism leaves me disappointed very often. If you think "your" spaces are going to be inherently better, especially if it's a space where mocking these types of social movements is seen as A-okay, chances are those spaces are gonna bring even more disappointment.


    "The absolute worst" of a lot of feminist movements really isn't that feminism seeks to make men and women completely the same. The discussions about sex and gender and what even "most feminism" believes are really separate discussions.


    If you have the patience to read this link about one particular feminist take on the question, then read it.

    Especially topical.


    If you're going to immediately discredit, without reading, whatever else might be in the above link or any others, then I hope anyone else reading is a bit more open.


    I'm willing to talk about my personal views on sex and gender, as one of these these silly feminists, but right now the bee in my bonnet comes from the fact you're using a very ill-informed idea of "feminism", coupled with juvenile satire to make some kind of point about how feminism is spreading misinformation and harming society.

    Your words, in case anyone thinks I'm misrepresenting you. I am unironically interested in whatever societal ills you think feminism is furthering. What is this misinformation feminism is spreading?


    Maybe nothing I, or anyone else on this planet, could think to say might even begin to change your mind. That's fine. I'm primarily addressing Galenmereth (and in a larger sense, folks who think "feminism" as blanket movement makes for a fine punching bag - hey this includes you Zeriab, do feminists not deserve hugs?), but a huge reason I'm taking the time to write this isn't for your benefit.


    You've very clearly laid out your views, and I've said mine, and I doubt either of us will change our opinions. I'm writing this for anyone who clicks into this thread and has the patience to read the discussion, or might have no idea what these frightening words like "feminism" or "patriarchy" mean. A lot of young folks frequent here and I'd hate for their first experiences with "feminism" to be people mocking a poorly-constructed strawman of the movement.


    Yes, I've linked very selective articles. This post is very, very long and I'm wary of shoving literal centuries of information at people all in one huge chunk. However, I'm willing to back up any claims I've made.
     
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  19. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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    My mistake was using generalist words such as "most" and "they"; from my experience in Norway, most feminists I have personally met or listened to through media, are of the kind that do not think there should be any difference between men and women (not just in terms of rights or salary, but in terms of spread in jobs and other areas where the difference actually is relevant), dismissing science on the way. That is what I disagree with, but I am aware that it is anecdotal. There are biological differences between the sexes, but that shouldn't lead to differences in rights or in salary, or anything else.

    Things like this video http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/11/ms-male-character-tropes-vs-women/, where one point that is made is that women are not predisposed to wanting dessert – as an argument against the creator of Pacman who in an interview said he thinks women seem to like dessert, – is a very simple example of what annoys me with some feminists. Because PMS affects serotonin levels (lowering them) greatly in many (if not most? I'm afraid of generalizing now...) women, and dessert (due to sugars/carbohydrates) stimulate serotonin levels. Serotonin is thought to be connected to happiness, and is therefore a feel good chemical. So some women actually are more predisposed to wanting dessert than men, because PMS lowers serotonin levels, which means these women will have a larger craving for it than men. At least that's what scientists believe when it comes to serotonin; while there is still not absolute certainty, you can't dismiss this as it's a huge element of the human body.

    But that doesn't make women inferior to men in any way whatsoever. It's just this blatant disregard for reflecting on known facts that keep me from being able to take many (but far from all) feminists seriously. Anita Sarkeesian is a prime example of this; throughout the whole video she uses anecdotes as basis for almost everything she says, all the while not mentioning a ton of obvious and important information. I could go on in detail about this, but I'll skip it for now.

    When it comes to the term feminism, and what the movement is really about (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism), I am absolutely and 100% behind that. The problem is that the term feminism is being used so broadly it's difficult to not immediately think of those that are misinformed, and who keep misinforming others. Because these seem to me to be the vocal ones that get media attention, who feature prominently in discussions and who make themselves heard, all the while using feminism as an anchor for their opinions. Eventually it becomes hard to see the difference between the movement and this vocal (and possibly minority) group of people.

    I apologize for generalizing in my earlier posts. I am really against doing that, and I'm ashamed of being guilty of it here. To clarify, I am a proponent of feminism as a movement. I'm just not in agreement with some of the people who identify themselves as part of it.
     
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  20. Zeriab

    Zeriab Huggins! Veteran

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    I certainly does not believe in that logical fallacy. Defending the rights and increasing the rights of women does not prevent symbiotic relationship with men nor does it prevent the suppression of men. Maybe the strategy of improving male rights can end up improving female rights, maybe not. I don't know.  The primary focus is women.

    Feminism is a word loaded with the connotations of the "feminine" and the "female". Does "feminism" sound gender neutral?

    My primary bone with feminism is the attempt to overload the word with gender equality. I want it as a separate category. You can perfectly fine believe in both.

    Let's say we have a nice isolated case where the rights of women are clearly greater than the rights of men. According to gender equality, we want equal rights for both men and women. According to feminism, shrinking the rights of women is not an option. Increasing the male rights to match the female rights is a possibility. Now let's say we have another isolated case where the rights of men are clearly greater than the rights of the women. In this case, we also have the option of decreasing the male rights. We still have the option of increasing female rights to match the male rights.

    As for hugs... It's not a criteria I even consider =o

    *hugs*

     - Zeriab
     
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