[Programming] C+=

Discussion in 'General Lounge' started by Galenmereth, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. Tsukihime

    Tsukihime Veteran Veteran

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    I don't think "feminism" as a word today is as relevant as it was 30 years ago.


    Just like how some companies are replacing terms like "chairman" to "chairperson", what if they used a more gender neutral term?
     
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  2. PentagonBuddy

    PentagonBuddy Out To Lunch Veteran

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    You linked Wikipedia when discussing feminism. I encourage you to read the article, if you haven’t.


    Science is one of those complicated topics. There are a lot of ways in which scientific institutions and real, legitimate, widely accepted studies have been all kinds of nasty things, but for now I’ll say that something being “science” does give it a free pass from being harmful or supporting harmful ideologies. Science is very often political in nature, as many areas of life are. Even when it’d probably be more pleasant if they weren’t.


    The media you encounter is political in nature. Being 100% objective and unbiased is very close to impossible. There’s a very high chance you’ve encountered a lot of media that portrays feminists in a very negative light. Consider where your information about feminism is coming from.

    I’m not going to spend a lot of time talking about this. “Feminism” as a larger movement has quite a lot of answers about the question of sex and gender differences, biological and cultural… It’s a very large, messy argument and one I’m not interested in having right now. My personal views are very different from yours. For one, I believe in a separation of sex from gender and the existence of people who fall outside “man” or “woman”; we aren’t even using the same scale when it comes to discussing biological differences.


    This is why I’m not going to directly address your critique of Anita Sarkeesian right now. If you want to have a conversation about that, you can PM me or make a thread about her or something else. Tropes vs. Women and this micro-debate about whether or not women are predisposed to liking desserts is irrelevant to my griping about you, right here, in this thread. It goes back to discussing biological differences between men and women which just isn’t something I’m up in arms about right now.


    I am going to emphasize that science is not the definitive answer to quite a few questions, especially when you’re not even citing any studies. You’re just making claims and then saying they’re backed up by “science”. Whose science?

    Who is using this term so broadly? I gave a definition of feminism I’ve been using, specifically Bell Hooks, and there are plenty of definitions that narrow the range. This is a topic that gets very gnarled and confused very quickly; right now I feel like we’re talking past each other or talking about very different ideas about what feminism is.


    Again:

    You reference misinformation, but tell me what misinformation is being spread by feminists?


    Right now, I’m accusing your posts in this thread of spreading misinformation about feminism. Specifically, this entire project, which is not a representation of Arielle Schlesinger’s work, that again, you brought up. It is hyperbolic, inaccurate, and portrays anything to do with “feminism” as militant and man-hating, when I can demonstrate over and over how this is not true. You posted it, you and others were making fun of it, you were spreading minsinformation about feminism.


    Spreading this information leads to people demonizing the social movement and dismissing all of feminism as “irrelevant” or “nonsensical”, to use polite language. Spreading misinformation leads to harassment; I would be breaking this board’s TOS if I linked you to some of the comments I saw about Schlesinger when I went to doublecheck if the C+= code was even real.


    Harassment is a huge, thorny topic of its own, but this kind of mockery and spreading of false, inaccurate information is a huge factor that leads to people getting harassed. This harassment STARTS from “innocent” joking around. It begins when you make the ideas about feminism, or social change in general, something worthy of being mocked.

    The fact you agree with what the feminist movement is “really” about matters very little to me. You’re free to agree/disagree with whoever you want. Sure, thoughts and viewpoints are important, but actions are very important.


    Your actions have been misrepresenting someone else’s work and using satire to make fun of a movement you don’t like. You’re doing it in a public forum where feminists, even the angry ones who might dislike men, are free to respond, and where people who’ve never heard of feminism might run across this and think things like making fun of the fake C+= project are in any way relevant. No, I personally don’t care if you apologize or not, though others reading might. The issue isn’t really one of overgeneralization.

    To quote the wiki article Galenmereth linked:

    Yes, the primary focus of feminist movements is women. I’m willing to argue in favor of this not being a bad thing.

    No, feminist is not a gender neutral term. Again, I’m willing to argue this is a good thing, mainly because feminism is not gender-neutral.


    And from one of the earlier articles I linked:

    Embracing wider ideas of non-specific “equality” is reductive. While it would be lovely if most places and institutions in the world operated on equal terms without discrimination, this isn’t true. There’s bias inherent in so many aspects of life, and removing the “women” out of the gender equality equation makes it seem like the playing field between women and men is equal, or that even the discussions about gender equality are from equal levels of power. It’s not. I am quite willing to back this up. The reason I'm not dumping mountains of info about it right this section is because these posts get long enough, and I'm giving others a chance to respond.
     
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  3. Engr. Adiktuzmiko

    Engr. Adiktuzmiko Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy' Veteran

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    Hmm... C+= ==> C+ so : C+= == C++-
     
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  4. Tsukihime

    Tsukihime Veteran Veteran

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    I pronounce C+= as "parse error"
     
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  5. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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    Sorry, but satire is humor, and humor shouldn't be restricted in fear of "offending" someone. This is a core element of freedom of speech.
     
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  6. PentagonBuddy

    PentagonBuddy Out To Lunch Veteran

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    Hurt feelings or "offense" is really not the issue.


    Freedom of speech is not the issue. Nowhere have I said you should be prevented from doing anything. I’m saying you shouldn’t make fun of social movements. This is very different from “you shouldn’t be allowed to make fun of social movements”. Do you get the difference? I’m saying that just because you CAN do something does not mean you SHOULD.


    Humor doesn’t prevent something from being harmful. “It was a joke” is not some kind of magical shield. You think I didn’t understand it was satire? I’m saying the C+= business is shitty satire, and it’s shitty of you to use it as a platform to bash feminism.

    Seriously. Not an issue of “offense”. If you want to go over how this leads to harassment or compliance with harassment, I don’t know, let me bust out some pictures or something. I’ve been writing an awful lot of words.
     
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  7. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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    Yeah, ok, silk gloves coming off. I'm not sure you actually read the OP?
     

    Inspired by. My post is a direct copy of the introduction from the project's readme, but even so, I admit: I am making fun of Arielle Schlesinger's work. And I don't feel bad about that, because I personally find that entire post of hers ridiculous. For example:

    You wot mate? Code using a feminist ideology? That makes no sense. Programming languages have nothing to do with gender. That's what the whole project I linked makes fun of; it makes no sense!

    She can't even answer her own question. What does imperative, functional, object-oriented, and logic have to do with genders? Nothing. Again, that's the whole point of the project; to make fun of this kind of ridiculous nonsense that makes feminists look bad. Yes, that's right; that kind of article means less and less people take a serious, important movement seriously. And this project, while good satire, is actually a good example of what this kind of illogical behavior has led to: People have a hard time taking feminists seriously because of articles like that.

    Am I spreading misinformation about feminism because I make fun of her article? No. The project doesn't spread false, inaccurate information; it's satire. Have you read The Onion?

    Like I mentioned earlier, I am guilty of over-generalising when I talked about what I consider the "bad" kind of feminists, and I made a point to explain my views on this. I'm not sure what you're after here, but it seems to me that you are not here for a discussion, but for a one-sided attack of some sort. But your shifting of the goalpost gets us nowhere; yes, humor can be hurtful. Yes, satire can be harassment. I do not have control over what people write in the comments of the project I linked – I did not make it. But Ariel Schlesinger decided to post her theory on the internet, for all to see. This is a rebuttal to what I and others consider a laughable article from her, but the project doesn't attack her person, only her article. That is not harassment.
     
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  8. Kaelan

    Kaelan Veteran Veteran

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    This nonsense about "if you criticize me (because my ideas are ridiculous), you're harassing me!" is another problem with modern feminism, and why I usually stay away from it. It happens almost every time someone with bad ideas gets called out on it.
     
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  9. Tsukihime

    Tsukihime Veteran Veteran

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    The problem with satire is that there are people that don't understand it, and then there are those that intentionally misinterpret it.


    So yes, the project can spread false, inaccurate information, just like how every other piece of satire is vulnerable to spreading false, inaccurate information.
     
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  10. GrandmaDeb

    GrandmaDeb Modern Exteriors Posted! Veteran

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    Hmmmm. Two different topics here. Or maybe three.


    1. Is Feminism a reasonable ideology and represented by persons who demonstrate a reasonable understanding of its most valuable points?


    and


    2. Are there ways in which current expectations in education and industry follow typical masculine thinking and could afford some rethinking with women's points of view in mind?


    and


    3. Are basic tenets of programming, such as Structured Programming, Top Down and Bottom Up design, Object Oriented design and other common features so entrenched in a limited, perhaps masculine way of thinking as to have missed possible alternative ways of approaching programming?


    I guess I would say that 1.) Not every person of faith represents their faith well, so why should I expect every feminist to represent Feminism well? And thank God I can own property, vote, inherit land and keep my children after the end of a marriage. I mean really, "Well, done, sister suffragettes!"


    2.) Um, yeah. How to make the change is another question, but, yeah.


    3.) Well, this question could stand a really good look at the sheer volume of crazy programming languages out there. Like, has anyone under 45 ever used LISP? (I feel a migraine coming on remembering those projects...) I think a wise person would want to examine that question first - but hey, if you want to propose new and exciting features, we live in an era of new and exciting features. More power to you.
     
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  11. AstoXx

    AstoXx Subconscious Punmaster Member

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    I just figure I'd point out here, C+= is not a satire of feminism, even though it is inspired by that post about feminist coding languages. It is a satire of tumblr SJW's and their frequently ridiculous logic. This is coming from a browser of the thread on /g/ itself. Most of the people involved don't hate on "feminism", they hate when it is MISUSED by the SJW's who claim that anything akin to disagreeing with them is "harassment" and like to throw the word privilege around a lot.
     
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  12. PentagonBuddy

    PentagonBuddy Out To Lunch Veteran

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    Here’s the short version: Women are often harassed online for being feminists, or perceived feminists. Don't do things that encourage that. C+= is satire that reinforces the same stereotypes that lead to harassment.

    I’ll take some time to clarify, then. So, why I’m still needling you about this:
    I came into this thread expecting discussion about programming, a little confused about the title and why it was in the general lounge. Unimpressed by some comments, but nothing I haven’t seen before. I thought about it and realized how often I see this brand of “satire” go unchallenged when it’s really not that funny and contributes to attitudes and behaviors I’d like to see less of. I don’t usually pipe up much about it on most occasions/places because it’s exhausting. But, given the nature of forums it’s not exactly like there’s a timer to respond or anything. I figure I can take my time.


    So I’m saying something about it, because some people never think of things like making fun of feminism as a problem and maybe have never stopped to think about it. I think it is a problem, so I’m explaining why. I’m addressing mostly Galenmereth because you’re the one who made the thread.


    You made statements about feminism like it “causes more societal problems as it continues to misinform “ or “feminism is not a solution to these problems, and might just make it worse”, and then when I ask you about what you think feminism is going to make worse and the misinformation it’s spreading, you’ve yet to answer. Again, even if I narrow it to “what is ‘bad’ feminism making worse and misinforming people about?”, you’ve yet to answer.


    And now it’s a one-sided attack? I’m addressing things you’ve said and explaining why I have problems with some of those things. I’ve also made my own points like:


    “the bee in my bonnet comes from the fact you're using a very ill-informed idea of "feminism", coupled with juvenile satire to make some kind of point about how feminism is spreading misinformation and harming society.”


    “ I’m accusing your posts in this thread of spreading misinformation about feminism.


    Spreading this information leads to people demonizing the social movement and dismissing all of feminism as “irrelevant” or “nonsensical”, to use polite language. Spreading misinformation leads to harassment.


    This harassment STARTS from “innocent” joking around. It begins when you make the ideas about feminism, or social change in general, something worthy of being mocked.”


    “I’m saying you shouldn’t make fun of social movements.”


    I haven’t shifted any “goalpost” (do you think I’m trying to earn ‘points’ for some mysterious purpose by doing this?); this is the heart of what I’m saying. I’ve been saying it since the first post I made. That hasn’t changed. The text bloat comes from directly addressing things you’ve been saying.


    It’s so many words to explain because you’re not sure why I’m here, despite me saying why I’m here from post one. So I’m being thorough and crystal clear in hope you’ won’t be unsure about anything I’m saying. This post is already super long and I haven’t even addressed the points you’re finally starting to make now that the “silk gloves” are off.


    I’m also taking the time to zoom out a bit and try and explain that harassment commonly happens to women who are feminist (or even perceived) feminists. In case you weren’t aware of the extent these things happen in the wider seas of the internet.


    Look, I’m just pulling quotes from this one article. It’s far from definitive. This article has links to even more instances of women facing harassment, if one example quoting several woman isn’t enough. That article is one of several compilations/larger posts discussing the online response many women receive. Here’s a dude talking about this, if you’re sick of hearing about women. Do I expect you to read all of those? Not really. Quite frankly, I’d be surprised to hear you were reading my posts; it’s all very long and unpleasant and it was a pain to write so I’m sure it’s a pain to read. But I’m making sure to establish that harassment is a real issue and one that happens to “good” and “bad” feminists alike.


    Eleanor O’Hagen:


    “When you start writing, nobody warns you about the abuse you'll receive. For me, it began almost instantly: not outright nastiness, though I have had my fair share of that, too, but attempts to discredit me. The comments came mainly from men and they were always in line with existing gender stereotypes. Instead of engaging with my opinions, commenters would make me out to be a hysteric, a "silly little girl" or a whinger. I remember some commenters telling me to stop going on. It was like they saw me as a sort of nagging fishwife, not a political commentator.


    On the whole, I've managed to avoid the worst threats and misogyny that other women writers endure but I don't think that's luck or because my opinions are more well-argued. I think it's because, very early on, I became conscious of how my opinions would be received and began watering them down, or not expressing them at all. I noticed that making feminist arguments led to more abuse and, as a result, I rarely wrote about feminism at all. I was so nervous about the abuse I would receive when I wrote an article about cultural misogyny. It felt like I was exposing myself as a feminist.


    To me, misogynistic abuse is an attempt to silence women. Traditionally, men have been the ones who influence the direction of society: I think there is still a sense that it's not women's place to be involved in politics. That's why the abuse women writers experience is really pernicious and needs to stop. Women will never achieve equality so long as they're being intimidated out of the picture.”


    Dawn Foster:


    “Occasionally, I'd respond to emails casually, to show the sender hadn't affected me in any way. Their responses usually disintegrated into unhinged ranting, away from discussing how much they hated me and into their hatred of women in general. Blog posts sprang up about me, full of ad hominem attacks, and assumptions about my views. Speaking to friends who also blogged, but were men, I learned this type of abuse wasn't common, unless you were a woman.


    Someone who wished to remain anonymous:


    “We feel like our arguments have to be tight at all times and that we'd better not type out anything less than reasonable (in anger) because the punishment we receive is likely to be disproportionate to the intellectual crime.”


    Jane Fae:


    “So I am in the fairly unique position of having written under both genders -- and having sight of my email postbag as male and female. There IS a marked difference. In fact, when I first started to notice the difference, I was quite shocked.


    First off, even the nice comments seem, at some level, to be more personal. I won't say I never got strongly dissenting views before I transitioned: but there was usually, mostly, some appeal to the rational argument underlying. Not so much any more, as many of those critical of what I have to say seem far readier to reach for the personal attack: the implication that I only say what I say because I am a woman. Or, as one politely put it, "an ugly woman".


    Or a feminist, natch. I have lost count of the comments that use the phrase "typical feminist", before going on to accuse me of being an inadequate parent, mother, person and to call into question my parenting skills”


    I thought about putting this entire discussion about harassment women often receive while writing on the internet into a spoiler or something. It’s long, in a monolith of a post, and I’m not accusing you of directly harassing anyone. But it’s still relevant, because I’m saying that holding up the C+= project as “good satire” and Schlesinger as someone worth making a public forum thread to mock contributes to an atmosphere that encourages harassment or the dismissal of harassment.


    At the very least, it encourages dismissive attitudes about feminism as a whole. All of the women quoted above, and the others in the article? Unless you look at their work or what they have to say, you have no way of knowing if they’re one of the “good” feminists you’re okay with or the “bad” ones you feel the need to publicly mock. Yet they’ve all been harassed and they’re all regularly dismissed for being feminists, as a whole, regardless of what they have to say.


    Just so we’re clear: women are often harassed online, especially if they show signs of being “feminist”. This happens because of stereotypes and common misconceptions about feminism, among other factors.


    So now I’m talking about Schlesinger.


    She's working on a thesis project. I agree in that I think it's not one I personally care about, but hey, she can do whatever. I've seen more niche topics done for a thesis. As to the "she can't even answer her own question", again, if you don't know how thesis projects work. Typically you don't approach a thesis project with a pre-formed answer. Research and experimentation are huge parts.


    As mentioned, there’s been a lot of backlash against Schlesinger. I’m more interested in the backlash, and why you think C+= is good satire.


    "Do you really think that feminist programmers could ever, in a million years, put this together themselves? The implementation for such languages will be written in assembler and C by old-school programmers like me. But I hope the feminist programmers can afford us; I charge extra when contracting for female bosses.


    "If you could impress feminist thinking onto a computer the resulting torrential flow of illogic would be most entertaining."


    "Wow. Just wow. This makes me so angry that I am like literally screaming at my computer screen, and I want to vomit because it is so disgusting. Because matriarchy. I don't need to listen to this womansplaining."


    [​IMG]


    There's political cartoons about this woman. For daring to write her thesis on some combination of feminist theory and computer science.


    There's this recurring trend: that the very idea of a feminist language is ridiculous, even weirdly enraging to some folks, and that the reason this is such a ridiculous idea is because feminism is a ridiculous idea. Not the “bad” feminists you’re perfectly fine making fun of, feminism as a whole. As if the very idea of “people tired of seeing women treated poorly” is ridiculous.


    Here’s the point of this: Arielle Schlesinger, in the wider internet space, has garnered the usual response women get when they write online, especially when they ID themselves as feminist in some way.


    The C+= project contributes to that response.


    I'm not saying you're spreading misinformation for making fun of Schlesinger's article. It’s the statements like:

    There’s a reason I spent time talking about common misconceptions about feminism in my first post. Because these ideas get paraded around so often and a lot of what you initially said were common stereotypes about feminism. So often these discussions happen without an “actual” feminist around, and just reinforce stereotypes.

    You then modify your earlier statements with this. I’m not impressed by the “I only think some feminists are bad” line of approach and like I said earlier, it’s not the overgeneralizing I take issue with. It’s why you think feminism is worth the mockery. In case it hasn’t been abundantly clear, I don’t care about your distinctions between “good” or “bad” feminists. What even is a good feminist? Someone who agrees with you and doesn’t use scary words like patriarchy? Dividing it into good/bad is useless.
    Here’s why I think the C+= project is shitty satire: Satire is supposed to challenge prevailing ideas, and the brand used in C+= does not. It doesn’t challenge prevailing feminist ideas, and feminism is something that’s still stigmatized. All it serves is to reinforce negative stereotypes about feminists. These stereotypes are applied to both “good” and “bad” feminists and used to discredit their ideas.

    You know what causes fewer people to take a serious, important movement seriously? People who feel the need to publicly mock feminists for being feminists. People who accept feminism as a target for jokes based on stereotypes. People who, when faced with words or information they’re unfamiliar with, choose to dismiss and ignore everything that person says rather than trying to understand them, or engage with their ideas.
    You claim to support the feminist movement, and I’m saying that threads like this, and publicly mocking feminist writers, does more to hurt that movement than help it. Good satire punches up the social food chain, not down it.


    Is Schlesinger some kind of major feminist voice? She’s already getting feminist critics who engage with her better than drafting a mockery of her thesis topic and spreading it around the net as satire. Her writing doesn't make people take feminism less seriously, it’s this response of mockery on such a large scale. And again, for what purpose? So what if she’s writing her thesis on some weirdly niche combination of topics? It’s not hurting anything. But these responses of public mockery and projects like C+= are harmful.

    I’m not accusing you of harassing anyone. I’m saying your rebuttal is a poor one – satire based on stereotypes that does harm to “good” and “bad” feminists alike – and that letting this kind of public mockery go unchallenged builds attitudes and beliefs that often lead to harassment.

    Let me repeat: I’m not accusing anyone in this thread of harassing Schlesinger. (or anyone else, I hope!) I’m saying that when you have these kinds of discussions where stereotypes about a group of folks are discussed and unchallenged, this leads to those stereotypes being upheld. And no good can come of that.

    Modifying it to “tumblr sjws” doesn’t change anything. Again, I mentioned in my first post there’s a lot wrong with both feminism and, in your specific gripe, the “tumblr sjw” culture. They’re not perfect movements. Criticism like the C+= project is not a good criticism of these movements, whether you take it as satire or not.
     
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  13. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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    Sorry, but satire usually offends. It offends those that take it seriously and then feel foolish when they realize it's a joke, and it can offend the subjects within its satire. I won't read the rest of your post if that's the short version, because I fundamentally disagree with you on this, and I'm not in the mood to read a wall of text explaining to me why making fun of a person's article on the internet is harassment; it's not. Not all ideas are good, and most ideas are bad. Her article was a particularly silly idea, in my opinion, and just as she is free to talk about it in her way with people that found it good, we are free to make fun of it. After all, we're making fun of her article, not her personal life.

    Edit: Oh what the hell, here we go:

    I don't see the issue in making distinctions between "good" and "silly"/"bad" feminists. I'm a pro-animal rights guy, and I usually get lumped in together with the crazy ones that do more harm than good by doing stupid stuff like throwing away all the meat in their parents' fridge, or the militant groups within PETA that cause more problems than they solve. But we're all animal rights proponents. So where does that put me? Do I have to agree with every single person who claims to be pro animal rights? No. I have to make a distinction, so I'm of the more liberal, take-your-time-and-inform-people animal rights proponent. I try to work by example but without preaching. I'm a vegetarian, I take in strays, I give to shelters. That kind of stuff. But I am pro animal rights, and yet I'm not for everything that movement as a whole does.

    That is the distinction I make when it comes to feminists; there are people who say they're feminists that "misinform" and "do damage" to the movement as a whole. Let me explain what I mean by this, by using Schlesinger's article as an example. All the people I've shared this with IRL – male and female ratio being 12 to 5, so 17 total so far – have found it hilarious and silly. These are intelligent people, I dare say. We've got a woman here who's 31 and an artist, another woman that is 29 and a system developer for military software. One of the men is 34 and works in the Pentagon, just to exemplify the spread in walks of life. We're all 100% on the same page when it comes to women's equality: We do not think there should be any difference in human rights between men and women, anywhere in the world. We do not think salaries for the same jobs should differ because of gender. We all agree that women are still sexualized more than men, but not exclusively. We think it's preposterous when countries and states don't let women decide over their own body (for example, abortion). We are pretty much feminists, unless the aforementioned Wikipedia definition is completely wrong.

    So what is it that is harmful about Schlesinger's article? Well, many people have a problem – over time – taking feminists seriously when people use it as a crutch to launch platforms of particularly silly and bad ideas, and then again use the term feminism as a shield against any and all ciriticism. When you repeat this over years and years, no matter how reflected a person is, it becomes hard to filter out the signal from the noise. Not all ideas are good, and most are bad. And feminism is being used a lot to immunitize ideas from public criticism.

    There's no question that there's a lot of ***holes out there who are being outright nasty towards women that try to cause good public discussion; people that comment on articles just to throw their verbal abuse at any and all woman who strive for more equality. But that's not what the project I linked to does. If you take it out of context, then sure, I can see how it can be perceived as more slander than funny. But satire is all about context and timing. Nowhere in this project did anyone attack the person behind the article to which it was a reaction to; nowhere. Commenters probably did, because as I mentioned, there's a ton of ***holes out there. People who, through their bull-headedness and abusive commentary that gets nobody nowhere, make everyone look bad, especially men.
     
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  14. PentagonBuddy

    PentagonBuddy Out To Lunch Veteran

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    Ideally, the wall of text isn’t going anywhere. Please, take your time. Do things when you’re in the mood. Thank you for admitting you’re not bothering to read my posts.


    The results of things like that?


    “I’m not accusing you of harassing anyone. I’m saying your rebuttal is a poor one – satire based on stereotypes that does harm to “good” and “bad” feminists alike – and that letting this kind of public mockery go unchallenged builds attitudes and beliefs that often lead to harassment.”


    Among all the other times I’ve tried to make it so very, very clear that I’m not saying this is literally, exactly, a 1:1 ratio of harassment.


    “Freedom of speech is not the issue. Nowhere have I said you should be prevented from doing anything. I’m saying you shouldn’t make fun of social movements. This is very different from “you shouldn’t be allowed to make fun of social movements”. Do you get the difference? I’m saying that just because you CAN do something does not mean you SHOULD.”


    Hurt feelings or "offense" is really not the issue. I’m not discussing whether or not the C+= project is “offensive” or might “hurt people’s feelings”.


    Hey, it’s great you’re pro animal rights. Good for you. Great you support feminism, again, good for you. Great you have friends who support feminism, I’m not going to argue with you about what you “really” believe. And again! Your friends are allowed to have opinions! Everyone is, seriously. Even folks who work for the Pentagon.


    Because the whole time my point hasn’t been about your beliefs, it’s yet again, the fact I take issue with the fact you made this thread to publicly mock a feminist writer using poorly-done satire. Nothing good really ever comes of that.

    Schlesinger hasn’t been using “feminism” as a shield for criticism. She’s been openly acknowledging critique of her work. Her thesis project isn’t hurting anyone. It’s not even a harmful idea. Say she wildly succeeds and shows the world some feminist programming language, whatever that ends up meaning. If you think this means anything resembling C+=, you’re already buying into so many of the misconceptions about feminism I was talking about earlier.


    Schlesinger’s stated purpose has been to come up with some kind of feminist programming language. Maybe something folks might end up using, maybe not, assuming she even succeeds. This does nothing to all the other existing languages out there.


    The fact she uses a lot of jargon doesn’t inherently make her ideas worthless. It makes them unclear and hard to understand. If you’re unwilling to look past the language and see her ideas, that’s unfortunate, but don’t claim you have any idea whether or not her ideas are harmful.

    I’m not saying it’s slander. I’m saying there’s really not much that’s funny about making fun of most social movements. You’re the one who specifically brought up Schlesinger; if you hadn’t done that then yeah, it’d just be a broader piece of “look how crazy feminists sound sometimes”. You provided the context of Schlesinger and her work, which is one of the main things that inspired the C+= project, despite the fact her “work” isn’t even started, really.


    The satire of C+= upholds harmful ideas about feminists. Every time folks speak out about that thing, they’re pretty much told to shut up and take the joke. It’s not a funny joke. I’m being such a humorless feminist about it because I’m real sick of seeing women get raked over the coals for expressing feminist ideas.
     
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  15. Kaelan

    Kaelan Veteran Veteran

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    Ridiculous ideas are, by definition, worthy of ridicule. It doesn't particularly matter what ideology the author subscribes to. Nobody gets to not have their bad ideas criticized, and satire is one way of doing that.
     
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  16. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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    @PentagonBuddy I don't even know what we're discussing any more. When it comes to ideas, and finding them ridiculous, there is an inherent subjectivity in play. I find Schlesinger's idea for her project – the words she wrote that I linked to, specifically – ridiculous. You do not. That is fine. But to make fun of something doesn't require everyone on the planet to agree that it is right to make fun of it. The C+= project I linked to doesn't target her specifically; it makes fun of her article, and the ideas and concepts she expressed, in a satirical manner. If you do not find it funny and take offense, so be it. But as I've tried explaining here – and failed at, apparently: One can simultaneously find that funny and be pro feminism. That is my point here; I find what Schlesinger wrote in the linked article / post ridiculous, and once you publish something publicly, that idea is not immune to ridicule just because you label it with a certain ism. The C+= "project" is a response to what many found to be ridiculous. You cannot stop people from finding your ideas silly, I'm afraid.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2013
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  17. PentagonBuddy

    PentagonBuddy Out To Lunch Veteran

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    It's been bolded and restated it a variety of ways to help your reading comprehension. I've asked you several direct questions you're dodging like a champ. Not once have I been claiming I can stop anyone from doing anything. You're free to peace out whenever you want and let this thread die a merciful death.
     
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  18. Galenmereth

    Galenmereth I thought what I'd do was Veteran

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    I think we'll let the thread live on for its intended purpose: the funnies.

    Now hosted on Gitorious, as GitHub, BitBucket, and Google all prove to be too misogynistic to support a feminist programming language.
     
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