Question on Balance

[WNxTyr4el]

So I'm new to this whole thing.  I'm working on my first game with VX Ace and it's going well so far.  A few hiccups that I'll have to fix later but so far everything works.  One thing that's bothering me is the fact that the default Thunder spell is really OP.  It one hits any early enemy and I don't want the player to feel it's too easy.  Any suggestions on how to fix this?  I agree it should be strong, but I don't know if it should one shot everything lol.

 

[MyLordRobinson]

The power of the spell depends on the formula, which I believe should be like 150 + a.mat * 4 - b.mdf * 2. The quickest way to reduce the amount of damage is remove or lessen the first integer. 

 

[WNxTyr4el]

The power of the spell depends on the formula, which I believe should be like 150 + a.mat * 4 - b.mdf * 2. The quickest way to reduce the amount of damage is remove or lessen the first integer.

Would that be something you recommend that I do?

 

[Kes]

An alternative explanation is that you have made the enemies too weak.  You might want to check their stats before changing what I've always found to be a normal strength spell,

 

[WNxTyr4el]

An alternative explanation is that you have made the enemies too weak. You might want to check their stats before changing what I've always found to be a normal strength spell,

I haven't changed anything with the enemies. They're set to the default values. Would that be the issue? I don't know how to make sure they're balanced though

 

[Kes]

The default values are very low, so almost anything will one shot them.  Here is a link to a very good introduction to the basics of how to do this.  http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/5623-godlike-rodents-rule-of-thumb-for-balanced-encounters/?hl=%2Bgod-like+%2Brodents

Also have a look at http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/13538-starting-my-game-balancing-skillsactorshpattack-etc/?hl=%2Bgod-like+%2Brodents#entry138009 and this http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/7025-any-advice-on-balancing-stats/?hl=%2Bgod-like+%2Brodents#entry75376

Between them they will give a very good grounding.  Then use battle test in the data base for each and every enemy troop that you create.

 

[WNxTyr4el]

So do I edit just the enemy or do I edit my classes too? I think I started doing this wrong. I was editing the class values. I think I should just be editing the enemy values. How do you reset the class values to default?

 

[CWells]

So do I edit just the enemy or do I edit my classes too? I think I started doing this wrong. I was editing the class values. I think I should just be editing the enemy values. How do you reset the class values to default?

Let's take it one piece at a time:

Everything in the Skills, classes, enemies and actor tabs are linked when it comes to battles. They all depend on parameters and formulas in some way.

Your enemies and actors have the parameters: ATK MAT, etc, you know this.

But the formula will determine hiow the ATK, MAT etc is read. If the default formula is 150 + MAT * 4 - b, MDF * 2 then that just means:

If MAT=100 then 150 + MAT * 4 equals 550. (100 * 4, 400 + 150, 550)

Then there is the MDF. If MDF is 50 and the formula for MDF is * 2 for this skill, then the damage will be reduced by 100 because MDF 50 * 2 = 100

Once you can read the formulas and have a handle on a specific enemies parameters, as well as the actors parameters, you will be able to read through the numbers easier.

 

[WNxTyr4el]

Okay so to start I just messed with the classes stat curves. I just set everything to E because that is the lowest stat and I feel that's easiest to start with. Now I just don't know where to go from there. I assume just keep testing battles with enemies and changing their HP and ATK to see what feels balanced. But therein lies another problem/question. What determines if a battle is balanced? Is it balanced if you barely beat the troop? Is it balanced if they kill one of your party but you still win? I assume the easiest answer is that it's up to me but figured I'd ask anyway.

Thanks so much for the help. Balancing probably isn't a big deal right now as the game isn't nearly close to being finished but I'm weird like that and it bothers me a little

 

[Fafnir]

If it's a common battle, like a random encounter, killing one person is definitely over the top. Opinions differ, but I believe it should take about 2 to 5 turns with some resource expenditure (mp, potions, ...). Balance on bosses and other once-off enemies is a bit trickier. More turns, more resources, less room to recover from mistakes.

 

[WNxTyr4el]

Now that's a good starting point. Setting the curves to their lowest setting allows me to mess with the enemy stats to make it balanced enough in that window (2-5 turns). One last question for now. Is it really just personal preference on how many enemies to a troop? For harder battles I've been adding one more to make it 3 and for normal encounters I've left it at 2.

 

[CWells]

Now that's a good starting point. Setting the curves to their lowest setting allows me to mess with the enemy stats to make it balanced enough in that window (2-5 turns). One last question for now. Is it really just personal preference on how many enemies to a troop? For harder battles I've been adding one more to make it 3 and for normal encounters I've left it at 2.

If you're concerned about balance, maybe you should start with some base formulas.

For your troops, it can be personal preference but even with preference, you're still tied to whatever strengths you have made your enemies. You may prefer to have 5 bats in one troop but if their stats are all really high, you mustn't neglect that each of those stats are going to play a part in the damage done per bat to the characters. So if you are relying on troop count to determine difficulty, you might find yourself greatly reducing stats on enemies meant for larger troops, if only so that the encounter isn't impossible in the long run.

Start out with some base formulas for your skills. What I mean is, make up some rules for yourself. It definitely helps.

Here is one example I have. I will also explain why this matters, even if you decide to break your own rules for certain skills:

The guide formula for my normal physical attacks is: a.ATK * 4 - b.DEF * 3.2.

The guide formula for my normal magic attacks is: a.MAT * 5.2 -b.MDF *  4.0.

With this, I can predict for most skills what the output and input will be coming from enemies and actors while they level up. This little guideline helps me determine where I want things to fall as I fill in the parameters for my enemies and actors. In turn, this helps me figure out how many of a certain enemy I should have in my TROOPS. With this I can get a feel for what the difficulty would be for a player at level 10, fighting against a troop of 5 versus a group of 2 based on the normal attack skills.

Try to set up rules for yourself.

 

[WNxTyr4el]

That's a really good rule. I'll try that for myself. I've already messed with the stat curves for classes so will that affect anything? One thing I also don't understand are the parameters and the ex-parameters. Is there a resource I could use to understand more of what those do? I have a link from one of the mods but I'm not on my computer right now so I can't look at it. Even a simple explanation would help.

 

[CWells]

That's a really good rule. I'll try that for myself. I've already messed with the stat curves for classes so will that affect anything? One thing I also don't understand are the parameters and the ex-parameters. Is there a resource I could use to understand more of what those do? I have a link from one of the mods but I'm not on my computer right now so I can't look at it. Even a simple explanation would help.

I made some notes on parameters when I was starting out:

FOR  ELEMENT RATES: ANYTHING OVER 100% IS A WEAKNESS. ANYTHING

UNDER 100% IS A DEFENSE. THIS IS ALSO TRUE FOR SP-PARAMETERS PHYSICAL DAMAGE RATE(pdr)

AND MAGICAL DAMAGE RATE(mdr)

THE STATE RATE REFERS TO HOW LIKELY IT IS THAT

YOUR STATUS AILMENTS WILL WORK ON OPPONENT.

ANYTHING OVER 100% MEANS YOU HAVE A GREATER CHANCE OF SUCCEEDING.

ANYTHING UNDER 100% IS RESISTANCE TO AILMENT.

so basically if you were to give an enemy 25% resist to something, if you were to hit an enemy that weakens hits resistance to  certain ailment, then it would something like this:

Goblin is 25% resistant to paralysis (STATE RATE: 75%. Remember, under 100% is a resistance)

So you hit it with a water spell that adds a special effect:

Goblin is SOAKED

SOAKED makes the enemy weaker to paralysis and electricity so:

STATE RATE: paralysis 150% (so enemy is 50% more vulnerable to paralysis)

ELEMENT RATE: Electric 200% (electric strikes will do 100% more damage)

I've already messed with the stat curves for classes so will that affect anything?

Yes but only on the characters growth when it levels. So long as you are aware of how your character is growing, you should be fine. Just make little notes for each class. Go to levels 90-99 and set up what you want the classes max stats to be. Then  do the same for levels 1-10 to get an idea of how you want the growth to move.

So long as your characters ATK is going up per level, then the damage will increase based on however many if increases per level.

Remember my sample formula for ATK: a.ATK * 4 - b.DEF 3.2

An ATK of 50 against no defense will do 200 damage. And if the growth is to 54. Then the attack will do 216 against an opponent with no defenses. Yes it is all connected.

 

[WNxTyr4el]

Thanks a lot. What's the difference between SP Param and regular Parameters? I understand that less than 100% is a res and over 100% is a weakness. That makes total sense. Where did you get your numbers for your base formula? Just curious. I'm still not home so I'll have to mess with it tonight some

 

[CWells]

Thanks a lot. What's the difference between SP Param and regular Parameters? I understand that less than 100% is a res and over 100% is a weakness. That makes total sense. Where did you get your numbers for your base formula? Just curious. I'm still not home so I'll have to mess with it tonight some

I just made up the numbers myself and just decided that those were the numbers that were going to be my base for my game project. I thought about the characters, the enemies, the world, how I want things to progress as I or others played through it, how I wanted everything to feel and the amount of control I wanted over it all. Then decided that those particular formulas were going to be my guide because those were the numbers and the ranges that made sense to me.

Ultimately, it is your choice how you weave it all together. Just keep in imind one thing. No matter what parameter you adjust, it always ends affecting other things. In a good game with a good system, you can feel the changes and you can keep a fairly good track of things.

The difference between SP-Parameters and parameters is:

Normal parameters are just the parameters. They are all based on % increases. HP increase, atk increase, etc. It's all just percent for all the parameters. Higher percentage means a bonus, lower percentage a decrease.

So MHP at 50% means the parameter has been reduced by 50%. You would want to do this in special negative states applied to either enemy or actor. A spell like: Life curse: Reduces max health of target by X%.

SP-Parameters deal with special effects such as Pharmacology which I've never played with, but I'm assuming that has to do with the effects of healing spells? Maybe even status ailments but don't trust me on this one.

And the damage rates. SP are just special parameters. And notice to that THEY ARE ALL RATES.

Amount of experience earned, the amount of damage blocked by guard(which by default is already very high), the cost of magic spells (MCR)

the TGR is the target rate. So an actor with a target rate of zero will be completely  ignored by the enemy in combat unless that actor is the only one in play.

EX-parameters are just the chances of certain lucky things happening like landing a critical strike or dodging an attack.

 

[WNxTyr4el]

So if you can give them a bonus in ATK, DEF, etc. then why not just make their base stats higher?  Lol, that just confuses me a little I guess but I'll get it.  The default Attack formula isn't too far from yours.  The only number that's different is the -b.def * x part of the formula.  Basically what I gather is that yours will do more damage than the default formula.  I may just leave it at default for now.  So since I have the formula, now I just need to mess with the other stats to get it right.  I'm close with my Bandit mob but I have Slimes and Bats too so far.  Gotta go back to them after I finish the Bandits.

Using the default formula a.ATK * 4 - b.DEF * 2:

The bandits HP is set to 135

ATK: 10

DEF: 8

Rest are Default

The main actor's stats are...let's see (only ATK and DEF really matter at this point in the game)

HP: 100 (I think)

ATK: 12

DEF: 11

I think that's right.  It seems a little more balanced than it did this morning.

 

[CWells]

So if you can give them a bonus in ATK, DEF, etc. then why not just make their base stats higher?  Lol, that just confuses me a little I guess but I'll get it.  The default Attack formula isn't too far from yours.  The only number that's different is the -b.def * x part of the formula.  Basically what I gather is that yours will do more damage than the default formula.  I may just leave it at default for now.  So since I have the formula, now I just need to mess with the other stats to get it right.  I'm close with my Bandit mob but I have Slimes and Bats too so far.  Gotta go back to them after I finish the Bandits.

Using the default formula a.ATK * 4 - b.DEF * 2:

The bandits HP is set to 135

ATK: 10

DEF: 8

Rest are Default

The main actor's stats are...let's see (only ATK and DEF really matter at this point in the game)

HP: 100 (I think)

ATK: 12

DEF: 11

I think that's right.  It seems a little more balanced than it did this morning.

Well I'll start piece by piece:

"So if you can give them a bonus in ATK, DEF, etc. then why not just make their base stats higher?"

Because those windows where you add all of these extra parameters, etc are meant to apply to gear equipped to an actor or a state. You can also use the features window to create a set of unique traits to specific enemies or actors. It is just another layer of control over how you want to increase a parameter.

You can create boots that give 20 to AGI and on top of that, you can add a 20% increase to the AGI in the features window. But of course, you would probably be more focused on adding other things to those boots then, like elemental resistance of some kind. But again adding 20 to AGI and increasing AGI by 20% are not the same thing.

"Basically what I gather is that yours will do more damage than the default formula."

Nnooooo. My formulas defense is increased by 3.2 times. The default increases defense by 2 times. So my formula, damage output is a bit less than the default.

Your formula now is looking alright in the default. But let's look at it all spread out:

Using the default formula a.ATK * 4 - b.DEF * 2:

The bandits HP is set to 135

ATK: 10

DEF: 8

Rest are Default

This translates to the bandit hitting 40 points - 22 (your main actors stats) = 18 damage per strike. If you have Variance in play then the damage output will swing from this a bit. I suggest you for the moment put variance at 0. We can discuss that some time tomorrow.

The main actor's stats are...let's see (only ATK and DEF really matter at this point in the game)

HP: 100 (I think)

ATK: 12

DEF: 11

So your Main actor will be hitting 48 - 16(the badits defense) = 32 per strike.

I want to make a note on HP but will do that some other time. For now, if you are comfortable with that, then play around with it and see how it holds up in the long run. Things might start to look different when you reach higher levels, stronger gear, stronger enemies. It's all up to you.

 

[WNxTyr4el]

Ohhh okay!  I sort of get the Parameters now!  It's exciting to know that you think my formula is starting to work with the numbers I have for the enemies.  I'll continue to work on it tomorrow and update you with what I have.  I'll try to go along with that 2-5 turn rule stated earlier in the thread.  See how far I get with that.

 

[CWells]

Ohhh okay!  I sort of get the Parameters now!  It's exciting to know that you think my formula is starting to work with the numbers I have for the enemies.  I'll continue to work on it tomorrow and update you with what I have.  I'll try to go along with that 2-5 turn rule stated earlier in the thread.  See how far I get with that.

Just keep in mind one thing:

If you are going to use the default formula and have your damage output be twice that of defense; ATK * 4 - DEF * 2

then while you grow your stats for both enemies and characters, you will need twice as much defense stat over attack stat if you were to nullify damage.

An ATK parameter of 100 means you or your enemy will need 200 DEF to reduce damage to 1 or 0.

This will affect how you create certain skills that increase or decrease defenses. When you start working with states, you'll notice some things.

Just feel everything out now. Go about and wander through the system playing with everything. Battle test constantly after you make changes to characters or enemies parameters.

And...one last thing about building your enemy library and skill library:

Finish skills first. Otherwise, what are you going to give the enemies?

I say, work on the enemy list, put some names down, set up graphics etc. Make a list for yourself so that you can see what you want things to be. Don't worry about their parameters just yet. In fact, your skills will dictate how you create the parameters of your enemies as well. Just get them down, throw them in the library in a certai order. Name them, get some pics for them. Abuse the note box and type out little tips for yourself on what you want a specific enemy to be. Then get to the skills list and work on creating them. Get your formulas out, get your magic and physical attacks flowing. Make your specials in there. Get some cool effects and states in place. After all that is done, then you can fill up your enemies with tangible data. Right now, just shell everything out and leave it hollow until you have what you need.