Random drop rates great/worst idea ever

[Ramiro]

Hello there, looking at the status update os Eschaton, I decided to expand it talking a bit about how random drops are the worst and the best idea ever created as a game, and to make a disccusion what other thinks of them.

Random drop rates, are usually something to give to the player, to make them feel good, sometimes there are problems when those items are crucial for the game.

I come here to talk why the mechanic is there, and why it should be sometimes avoided, but sometimes is a bad idea.

First of all, let's consider why random drop rates for normal loot may be added to your game:

• To hide something or give surprises from time to time.
• To add padding for 100% completition.
• Because sometimes it makes sense than sometimes an enemy may carry something.

They where not invented because 'some people like them', people 'doesn't like random things' by inertia, they like what gives those random things to the player. So yes, people actually love random drops because the reward it gives not the action of having a random number dictate their fate.

The next part is all about opinion why random drop is a good idea, and a bad idea

Why they are the best idea?

Random drops allow the player to feel proud of what they acheive. After killing a boss and having a sword wich had a 1% of appearing makes you feel good, even more when that meant you tried to kill that boss many times, or you were looking for the object for a long time. This concept is a way to add you a sensation of accomplishing something, even when you really didn't do anything but stay at the mercy of a random number generator. Just remember, if they are too low this will lead to frustration, and you can make them worst if you mix them with other mechanics, like time between respawns.

They often makes sense, like when you defeat some bandits sometimes they may drop some loot.

They may also be here to help the character, you know like if you are in de dessert with snakes, finding antidotes as random loot for them may come in handy.

Sometimes, there is a sidequest or an extremely powerful weapon for this, wich makes the reward usually worth the effort, however, this sometimes isn't really applied well.

Why they are the worst idea?

while random drops makes you feel good, they make you feel terrible too.

This happens when random drops are required to progress the story. This is a standard on many modern MMORPG's...

The typical case of 'give me ten wolf tooth' and you get not only 1 per wolf, but sometimes wolves doesn't have any, bonus point if they use an skill called 'bite' on you, and then doesn't drop any teeth... Or you used 'steal' and they gave one... after that you killed them and gave another one...

When used like plot devices like that, random drops are extremely awfull and tends to make the player lead to make the chore because they don't have any other option. Because it's a quest like 'kill X times this mob' with a twist, this time is

kill 'x + n' times the mob where x is the number of items you need and n is the amout extra you need to kill because you had bad luck.

You know how mundane is the idea of killing 100000 monsters just to get a key to advance to the next floor when you have to reppeat the process?

While doing this may be a good way to change what you were doing (using luck as resource).

This aspects are things people don't like, if you are asking 'why they still keep using them?' it's easy:

It makes your game longer without effort, and 'everyone is using them'.

How games came with solution of them

 To avoid the mmorpg syndrome some games, decided to use the good parts of random drops, but at the same time using them to fuel your sense of reward, lot's of games now tend to give a lot of items.

While this may sound silly, mobs today have many random loot, like 4-5 items each monster. This is done with the idea than on average you will get at least one of them.

Games like ragnarok online where not only drops are extremely low, but at the same time the moster appears one in every 30 minutes are not made today because games became more mainstream, and this is considered a frustration feature.

Still, using the idea of low drop rates for extremely valuable items (wich are not required) are something you may implement anyway, just because while they may lead to frustration at the start, they give a feel of achivement at the end.

TL;DR they are a very double-edge weapon.

Why are you planning to implement them? Are your reasons only because 'I like them'? You want to give the player some sense of 'acheivment'? Did you really think why you are using them?

Remember, when you implement something, always check why it's there first, even for some 'standard' features, like random drops, your players will be happier if you plan ahead how to use them wisely.

 

[Milennin]

Just talking about your average RPG Maker game here:

Things to keep in mind when setting random drops:
-Always assume a worst case scenario for the player. So if the player is dependant on random drops from monsters to cure status ailments, players who are unlucky enough to not get any drops are now screwed. Probably should avoid this.
-Take in account the power gap between lucky and unlucky players. It's cool your boss has a 1% chance to drop a powerful weapon, so what happens to players who find it? Is the dropped weapon strong enough to make the next few areas super easy? Does it allow the player to hoard a bunch of extra money because they don't have to spend money on upgrading a weapon in the next shop? Are players who don't find the rare drop now screwed because they lack the extra power or have to spend all their money upgrading their weapon?

-Does it really feel good to get a 1% chance drop in a linear RPG? You only beat the boss once and get the drop, but does it feel rare at all? For all you know it had a 100% drop chance. Unless there is some kind of way to look up drop rates, or making the player beat the same enemy over again, they'll never know whether or not an item is truly rare to find.

-If your quest requires 5 randomly dropped items from monsters in the area, would it cause unlucky players to overlevel themselves because they keep on grinding encounters to find the required items. This could only be a problem if the randomly dropped items have too low of a chance to drop.

 

[bgillisp]

Currently, my drop rate is 100%, except if it is something like a potion that a bandit might or might not have.

 

[Ramiro]

Just talking about your average RPG Maker game here:

Things to keep in mind when setting random drops:

-Always assume a worst case scenario for the player. So if the player is dependant on random drops from monsters to cure status ailments, players who are unlucky enough to not get any drops are now screwed. Probably should avoid this.

You know, the shop may have more antidotes and you can have a mage with 'cure poison', you can just give even less chance to make your player feel bad.

-Take in account the power gap between lucky and unlucky players. It's cool your boss has a 1% chance to drop a powerful weapon, so what happens to players who find it? 

If the game is not online, there may not be a need to have to check the gap between, sometimes the item may be the sword you get on the next shop. Sometimes its not too different or a bit more powerful.

-Does it really feel good to get a 1% chance drop in a linear RPG?

Yes it does, random loot usually may be a good pvp weapon for two months on a mmorpg, but after that is still bragging rights.

Also, some players use some equipment because it looks nice. Wich are usually the case with this kind of drop.

While doesn't make you happy  on the long run, it makes you happy on that moment.

Probably your game is filled with that, so there are mutiple times you will be exited again.

You know, like completing the pokedex in pokemon, you know in 4 years you will have to collect 50+ new monsters... Even 50% of them are not even useful. Still many try to catch 'em all. And they are somehow a case of random drop mixed with random encounter...

 

[Milennin]

I think you completely missed the part where I said:

Just talking about your average RPG Maker game here:

 

[winningedge101]

I only like random drops when there is a monster you know will drop something eventually. If you grind it out some there's a chance you'll get a weapon or something, and I think this makes the character feel good. Random drops are also cool like the desert example you provided. If you have it implemented where you slowly die of dehydration and bam you find water on some bandits or something that would awesome, sort of a surprise for the player when they think they are on the brink of death. Random drops throughout the whole game? Yikes that makes me puke....I used to play Destiny a lot, and RNG is freaking terrible. Too much grind for uncertainty. Well that's my two cents.

 

[Crazetex]

If you have a 1% drop, do you have a way for the player to even know that it exists and which enemy has it? Why is it worth potentially killing 100+ of that monster? If it's something pointless, there's... no point. If it's something powerful, I'm sure you can find a better way to gate the acquisition of that item without a 1% drop rate.


You also have to remember that people probably are paying for your RM* game and that they have things to do with their time. Grinding a 1% drop doesn't sound like a great use of your player's time.

 

[stupid enough to like FF13]

I remember this one time I was playing this game, a little RPG by the name of Lufia: The Legend Returns. I'd just beaten an optional boss fight and gotten a 200-attack sword, compared to the wimpy 30-ish-attack weapons I'd had up until then. (There's no better series tradition than "beat up the bad guy when he's supposed to beat you up and take his sword".)

Afterwards, I was going along, with Wain slaughtering everything in sight—save for undead enemies like Zombies, which were immune to the Gades Blade. (Stupid jerks.) But then, on one of the last dungeons of the first (of four) continents, one of the Zombies dropped something. An "Alumina Sword". So I went to check it out.

480 attack.

480 attack.

480 ATTACK.

And I was like, "Kick-ass! =^_^=" and then went to chopping up monsters. (Surprisingly, said 480-attack sword didn't completely break the game. It's a nine-peep-party game.)

I feel the same way whenever Hydras drop the Might Sword in Lufia and the Fortress of Doom. (In fact, my current project has a shout-out to that particular rare drop!) So if I kill a monster and an Uber-Killstick spills out of its corpse, I'll take it. I'm not going to spend hours purposefully trying to get one—if the game essentially required me to do so, then I would probably stop caring about the game anyway.

So 1% random drops don't have to encourage hours of slaughter just for one item. It can amount to just a lucky bonus. (Heck, I have a 1/256 drop in my current project, but it does come from an enemy type that appears throughout the game. And even that drop's effect is chance-based! Hahahahah!)

 

[Chaos Avian]

With my drop rates I don't go below 25%, but with that said most enemies have more than one drop and it's the player's main way of building up currency. Slay a few monsters, sell their remains to the shop for money then use said money to buy stuff (items, weapons, etc). A bit basic, but I don't really have chances for awesome weapons or armour unless it makes sense. For example I wouldn't have a giant wolf drop a piece of cool scale amour.

If anything it would be a humanoid enemy that could drop that and the percentage chance is supposed to represent how badly that armour got damaged in the fight against him/her (might make more sense just to give it the 100% drop rate). 

 

[Chill Pingu]

Random droprates should never be used to give the player a key item.


In my game, they only give thing like healing items, status items, some gear and occasionally a "sell only" item.

 

[Wavelength]

In a single-player game, a player that receives a "1% drop" from a boss enemy probably won't even know that they usually don't get said drop.  The good feels might not ever come.  1% drops from ordinary monsters can be better because they are likely to not get it most of the time, but then randomly get the drop and be like "whoa, what is this item I've never seen before?".

I have no problem with the use of these "random drops" as a required item for a mandatory quest if the system adds a "bias" so that you have a progressively higher chance of getting the item next time each time it fails to drop, or if the drop requires some sort of player skill (the monster will only drop said item if you beat it within 3 turns, etc.).  If the drop is truly random, make it an optional quest or offer some other way to certainly procure the item besides a monster drop.

Something neat that WoW does on a lot of its quests is to make required drops from monsters automatic each time you slay one, and for things like "the head of a boss enemy", everyone who participated in killing the enemy gets to loot a head from the same corpse, which is hilarious and unrealistic but also extremely good game design.

 

[Eschaton]

There was a game in which the Ultimate Armor ® required that the player farm an item from an extremely rare enemy. This items drop rate from said enemy was 0.4%.

Don't do things like that. Don't do it. Hey! (Smacks your head). Don't do that stuff.

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

I kinda agree that if players have no idea that some monsters may have a rare drop for loot, it's pointless to make it a feature.

It may makes sense in MMO or objective/target based mission (like in Monster Hunter) games, but in a single player RPG, apart if you integrate it in the backstory (eg, a hunter guild or something, giving explanations and hints on drops), it will not be noticeable by the player.

In my games, I'm planning to bypass drops to have loot collected on enemy corpses, and nothing not making sense in terms of lootability (like a wolf will only yield fur, skin and teeth or bones, but certainly not a weapon or money, a human might have drinks or food, eventually 2 or 3 dollars.  

I have always been skeptic when a very large monster drops a one handed sword perfectly sized for the player...Why does he carry it? though with creativity, it could be a old relic, stuck under then carapace of the monster, but then hero would be expected to grab it during battle making it a plot tide turner.

a majestic weapon should not be dropped by a dragon, you should collect it from its hoard.