Random loot and you

Nirwanda

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I've been thinking of adding random loot to my dungeon crawling game. What are your thoughts on it? Do you enjoy it, hate it or are indifferent to it?

Do you save scum for it? What about using save points instead of a save anywhere mechanic? Would that reduce your chances to abuse saves?

EDIT : I should mention that in my case the idea is to use both random loot for generic chests and static loot (unique and powerful items) for important ones, like one found after solving a puzzle.
 
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mjshi

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I think a game should never completely block access to "save scumming". Players may feel cheated and/or have absolutely terrible luck. Also, people hate it when they die and have to restart from an older save then have to go through all the cutscenes, monster fights, etc. again.

A suggested alternative is to offer players a choice between normal mode and hard mode, and have hard mode not allow for saving except with checkpoints.
 
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Niten Ichi Ryu

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For me, random loot make sense with random dungeons, ennemy scaling or ennemy random levels.

For a story heavy game, I wouldn't like them. For a grindfest or roguelike, they make sense.
 

Kes

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I think that this is often very badly implemented.  No, I do not want my 15th wooden shield, especially when I've had to fight my way through a lot of enemies to get to this chest and maybe used up some precious healing items.  Reward should be proportionate to effort, otherwise it discourages exploration.  I sometimes feel that the developer is having a joke at my expense.
 

Nirwanda

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Well, for what's it worth, the idea was to implement it along with static loot in certain places, so a chest in a hard to reach location (like after a boss) would have a unique piece of gear along the random the loot.
 

Leitha

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My personal recommendation, as both a player and a developer, is to pay very close attention to how your game will feel to your audience. Make sure you have at least a passing familiarity with probability theory, then make sure your randomization is designed in a way that is more exciting than frustrating.

Some general thoughts:

- As a rule, players should feel excited and happy when they are lucky and content when they are unlucky, not frustrated and miserable when they are unlucky and content when they are lucky. If you are punishing players for something that isn't their fault, your game won't be very fun.

- Be aware of players who might be tempted to try to collect everything. The only options I'm aware of to address this are to either make collecting overtly impossible (such as with a very limited number of inventory slots), to be very careful with drop rates to make collecting reasonable (a firm grasp of probabilistic math is important here. If you don't have one, assume it's much harder to find items than you think), or to just accept that any players who enjoy collection will find your game frustrating, and make it clear that they aren't in the target audience.

- Consider implementing a crafting system, extra uses for money, or some other system to make vendor trash and duplicate equipment more engaging and useful.

- Consider including a few rare but plausible randomized loot combinations which are completely overpowered for the area they are lootable in, but without making them so good as to make the loot of later areas useless and/or uninteresting. For example, a super-low accuracy life-draining sword and a set of accuracy-boosting armour and accessories with poor defense. Each item is okay-ish on its own, but together they become insanely powerful, at least until the sword's attack power begins to lag behind newer options.

- Note that a really good random loot system means a lot of work for you. Players will be expecting a lot of interesting and flavourful gear and items which can be combined in creative ways.

Hope this helps, at least a little. Good luck.

Edit: Oh, another option to appease collectors is to make everything which could be looted purchaseable at a reasonable price later in the game. But this only works if the player knows about it, so make sure it's really hammered home before exposing them to any loot with a potentally problematic drop rate.

Edit II: Other people have mentioned it, but it's worth repeating: It's extremely easy to accidentally make your players feel like there's not enough loot, but it's far less common to hear anyone complain about too much. Especially with random systems, err on the side of generosity.
 
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EternalShadow

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If you're going to give random loot, give a lot of it. In Skyrim, I put a mod that boosted random loot drops by something like 5 or 10 times, and it felt so much more rewarding to go through the (very) long dungeons than it did before. Before, I could go through a dungeon and get like, one bad loot item for example.
 

Nirwanda

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I think a game should never completely block access to "save scumming". Players may feel cheated and/or have absolutely terrible luck. Also, people hate it when they die and have to restart from an older save then have to go through all the cutscenes, monster fights, etc. again.

A suggested alternative is to offer players a choice between normal mode and hard mode, and have hard mode not allow for saving except with checkpoints.
I see your point and I'll consider it, though my reasoning is that a save point system technically allows you to save scum, but you have to be more determined to take advantage of it. Besides I was thinking that maybe it would be cool to have save rooms, safe areas where you could save, replenish items, rest and talk to party members, making the whole save point thing more immersive. Thanks for your input. ;)

For me, random loot make sense with random dungeons, ennemy scaling or ennemy random levels.

For a story heavy game, I wouldn't like them. For a grindfest or roguelike, they make sense.
This is going to be more of a dungeon exploration centric linear adventure, not a roguelike. So I don't knoiw if it'll suit your tastes. :/

My personal recommendation, as both a player and a developer, is to pay very close attention to how your game will feel to your audience.
Wow! You've made a very well thought out response with some great points, let me address them:

- As a rule, players should feel excited and happy when they are lucky and content when they are unlucky, not frustrated and miserable when they are unlucky and content when they are lucky. If you are punishing players for something that isn't their fault, your game won't be very fun.
That's a very good way of looking at it. Loot tables should definitely be exciting.

- Be aware of players who might be tempted to try to collect everything. The only options I'm aware of to address this are to either make collecting overtly impossible (such as with a very limited number of inventory slots), to be very careful with drop rates to make collecting reasonable (a firm grasp of probabilistic math is important here. If you don't have one, assume it's much harder to find items than you think), or to just accept that any players who enjoy collection will find your game frustrating, and make it clear that they aren't in the target audience.
As a completionist I can empathize with such an idea, though I haven't given it much deep thought. The limited inventory seems like a bad idea on agame that emphasizes experimenting with items, but given the variety and amount of items it would be very unlikely the game would satisfy a completionist. But thinking about it, I think that being aware of this aspect I can make sure to give the player second chances even at rarer loot.

BTW,  I'm not a math savvy person. :p

- Consider implementing a crafting system, extra uses for money, or some other system to make vendor trash and duplicate equipment more engaging and useful.
That's definitely in the works, I'm also thinking of implementing an arena similar to Final Fantasy VI's. In it you could bet an item and if you won the fight you'll get a different item of equal or superior quality, which would be another way to make repeated items useful.

- Consider including a few rare but plausible randomized loot combinations which are completely overpowered for the area they are lootable in, but without making them so good as to make the loot of later areas useless and/or uninteresting. For example, a super-low accuracy life-draining sword and a set of accuracy-boosting armour and accessories with poor defense. Each item is okay-ish on its own, but together they become insanely powerful, at least until the sword's attack power begins to lag behind newer options.
That's a brilliant idea! I'll be sure to try to implement some clever combinations.

- Note that a really good random loot system means a lot of work for you. Players will be expecting a lot of interesting and flavourful gear and items which can be combined in creative ways.
For now it's been very fun to come up with items ideas, but I guess you're right. Still, rpg making is a lot of work in general, right? It's just a matter of enduring it.

Hope this helps, at least a little. Good luck.
Thanks a lot!

If you're going to give random loot, give a lot of it. In Skyrim, I put a mod that boosted random loot drops by something like 5 or 10 times, and it felt so much more rewarding to go through the (very) long dungeons than it did before. Before, I could go through a dungeon and get like, one bad loot item for example.
That's the idea, loot is more fun when it's plentiful.
 
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Leitha

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Seems to me like you have a reasonable handle on things and some useful experience to draw upon. At the very least, it'll be excellent practice. Again, best of luck to you, and enjoy yourself.
 

Wavelength

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Random loot seems appropriate for a dungeon crawler; it's a mechanic that usually feels rewarding within that context.  There's a cool slot-machine like feeling that comes with taking down an enemy or opening up a chest and having no idea whether you're about to get trash or treasure.

I certainly wouldn't abuse save scumming just to try and get a rare item (except maybe in the postgame, when I'm just trying to mess around and try out the last few interesting things the game has to offer).  I might abuse saves if the game were going to take away some really powerful item that I owned or something.

There are some valid nitpicks about random loot systems in this thread, but you can account for them by giving appropriately powerful items/equips in appropriate places (e.g. no Wooden Swords in a very high-level dungeon), and by giving items "lifelong" uses (e.g. healing items heal for a percentage of your health, and even obsolete trinkets can be traded in for something powerful).
 

Mysticphoenix

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Random loot is good. But don't random every single item in the game. 
 

Zoltor

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I think that this is often very badly implemented.  No, I do not want my 15th wooden shield, especially when I've had to fight my way through a lot of enemies to get to this chest and maybe used up some precious healing items.  Reward should be proportionate to effort, otherwise it discourages exploration.  I sometimes feel that the developer is having a joke at my expense.
I absolutely loath the lack of forsight developers have when making such mechanics that lead to that crap.  In deeper areas of dungeons, harder to reach chests or even if there are different rarity of chests, the overall quality of the potential loot pool, needs to be constantly raised, as you progress farther in the game, apposed to just "adding" higher lv loot to the pool.
 

Zoltor

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I think that this is often very badly implemented.  No, I do not want my 15th wooden shield, especially when I've had to fight my way through a lot of enemies to get to this chest and maybe used up some precious healing items.  Reward should be proportionate to effort, otherwise it discourages exploration.  I sometimes feel that the developer is having a joke at my expense.
Yea, It's frigging amazing how many developers poorly implement a feature, that really Isn't hard to implement properly(all it requires is knowledge about the damn game, you're actually developing, and very little added effort.

I mean damn, how hard is it to make different drop table tiers lol.

As you get to higher lv areas/deeper floors, the lower lv items shouldn't even be a possible drop anymore.
 

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