Random Map Generator+

[RetroBoy]

The ability to generate an over-world with a click of a button. The ability to generate cities or forests, or any map with click of a button and then modify to fit your custom need. A program exists called "Hexographer" it is ancient but the mechanical function could be easily modified and implemented into the dungeon generator to allow for fully versetile map creation with the click of a button (Link provided below).

Code for Implementation:
Unknown if it exists, but refer to Hexiographer for an ugly and primitive (but functional) example: http://www.hexographer.com/

Why is this feature good?
This will allow people to RNG maps. By simply applying values to each tile you are able to determine the likelihood of which tile will appear adjacent to it. This might seem "lazy" (and it is) but I think most people will approach a project with "I need a forest map" attitude, a basic concept and having the generator being able to do them a mock-up of them which can be later modified will dramatically speed up game creation and increase accessibility.

Possible issues with this feature?
It is entirely possible that some maps will end up looking terrible or require personal modification to work. Still, this is a minor inconvenience in my opinion. Mappers in the community will find demand for their services decline somewhat or will be forced to shift into para-mapping.

 

[RetroBoy]

Anyone mind explaining why they voted No?

Is it just because it will cost mappers in the community work if it exists?

 

[LTN Games]

I voted yes, but not important. I don't find it as important as some, maybe? I always enjoyed making maps from scratch and I never use any generator. It's most likely personal preference. Although the idea is pretty cool, I don't see me using it.

 

[RetroBoy]

We have the maze generator already which is the same kind of thing albeit in a more primitive capacity. I use it pretty regularly but end up making drastic changes. I just like having the ground work laid out for me, it makes getting started easier.

 

[bgillisp]

I think you're going to get a lot of NO's, just because there is a high fear that if this existed, many people will use it to make a game in a day and spam Steam with them. It already happens with the generator and sample maps.

 

[RetroBoy]

I think you're going to get a lot of NO's, just because there is a high fear that if this existed, many people will use it to make a game in a day and spam Steam with them. It already happens with the generator and sample maps.

It kind of sucks that people's fear of bad content being produced punishes the people who wouldnt use it like that.

 

[Andar]

It's not exactly fear of bad content but the consequences of it. At the moment the need to put work into maps keeps the number of finished games down, and if you do put that work into it people usually know that most of the finished games have some quality.
But no one wants to wade through hundreds of one-day-development-projects to find the two or three where people put work into it.

Just a few month ago there was someone who was of the opinion that he could make a large game with a hundred maps in a week or two, because he used the existing map generator to create those maps. And that had shown in the screenshots, that he made a dozen maps each day...

 

[bgillisp]

Plus, there is the fact that making a good map generator is HARD. Really hard. Right now there are other things that are of much higher priority than taking the months it would take to make a good map generator.

 

[RetroBoy]

If its so hard , how is it that the program I linked can run on Windows 95 and has been around over a decade?

That seems a bit disingenuous to me, especially given the fact that we already have the Maze Generator and it works off the exact same principles except without the variety. In fact, it would have to work almost exactly the same way but recognize fewer tiles otherwise we'd end up with maps that had blocked paths and we don't?

Its unlikely it will matter anyway, its clear that no one else really think its a good idea. Its a pity though because if MV doesn't pick up its going to be quickly replaced by competitors within the next few years.

It's not exactly fear of bad content but the consequences of it. At the moment the need to put work into maps keeps the number of finished games down, and if you do put that work into it people usually know that most of the finished games have some quality.
But no one wants to wade through hundreds of one-day-development-projects to find the two or three where people put work into it.

Just a few month ago there was someone who was of the opinion that he could make a large game with a hundred maps in a week or two, because he used the existing map generator to create those maps. And that had shown in the screenshots, that he made a dozen maps each day...

Yeah, that is why I never buy anything on Steam with RPG MAKER art assets. I know that makes me a dick but I figure if something doesn't have original art in it then I probably wouldn't enjoy the game and its probably junk.

A few years ago I used to help newbies by playing their games and giving them feedback so I am super burned out on crappy one day games too. But it still sucks if people are just voting against it because they don't want to deal with competition flooding the market.

It says to me they don't have a lot of faith in their product or creative abilities.

 

[Andar]

If its so hard , how is it that the program I linked can run on Windows 95 and has been around over a decade?

The difficulty of the programing increases with the number of tiles and a few other structures - and it increases exponentially, not linear.
I checked your link, and the hexographer has a very limited one-layer tileset compared to the multilayer RM tileset (and took a few other shortcuts that only work on hex-maps, not on a grid like RNs).
Sorry, no comparison in the required complexity - an RM map generator would require a hundred times the care and work compared to Hexographer.

 

[RetroBoy]

I think this very interesting, can you elaborate?

 

[Andar]

not here - search for the topics about it in game mechanics and if you still have questions, make a new topic there.

 

[feckyeslife]

My opinion is not linked to quality - though I tend to agree with the comments about pre-fab maps potentially further diluting RM game reputation. I voted No because there are other more universal improvements that are of greater priority for the dev team. This is more of a convenience tool for people making mass maps. I'd rather see more tools put out for game map development like the doodads or alternate grid sizing.

 

[RetroBoy]

My opinion is not linked to quality - though I tend to agree with the comments about pre-fab maps potentially further diluting RM game reputation. I voted No because there are other more universal improvements that are of greater priority for the dev team. This is more of a convenience tool for people making mass maps. I'd rather see more tools put out for game map development like the doodads or alternate grid sizing.

I recommended the doodad thing and the same system for a HUD/UI and it was down-voted as well.

 

[Piyan Glupak]

Continuing the theme of some of the arguments above....

My impression of a potential world generator has been influenced by the existing built-in maze generator. I see the maze generator as barely being useful to start a dungeon that might, after major editing going way beyond detailing and decoration, become a usable dungeon. I suspect that developers would sometimes be better not even being aware of maze generator.

The over-world map has even more potential issues. The developer has to do content to fill it (content usually involving maps of various locations). In my opinion, that it the wrong way to go about it. The story and locations specify the over-world map, not vice versa.

In MV, I also find issues in using some of the tiles with the standard-sized sprites. I firmly believe that an over-world map needs to be done by hand.

 

[bgillisp]

While at work yesterday I had a thought about this more, maybe @RetroBoy can clarify? Is what you want the ability to make a random map generator like we have now, but maybe have it populate it with some of the B/C tilesets items already? Or maybe have it use more than one autotile when generating? If so then I could see the use for this, though keep in mind the computer would really treat random as random (as in, you might get a B tile on a ceiling, or half a tree, as that is what random means). Could still be used though if you touched it up.

Or, is what you are thinking is make it a little less square like? Reason I inquire is you can already make a forest at random with the generator, as there is a forest autotile. Use that in the generator, and here's your forest. Cities and overlands, not so much especially as random would mean you'd probably get a lot of islands...or cities in the water. Definitely would stand out but could be fixed up to make it work, and if someone tried to use it for instant game making it would be too obvious too.

Still...with a little more thought I can see a way it might work. Changing to Yes.

 

[RetroBoy]

While at work yesterday I had a thought about this more, maybe @RetroBoy can clarify? Is what you want the ability to make a random map generator like we have now, but maybe have it populate it with some of the B/C tilesets items already? Or maybe have it use more than one autotile when generating? If so then I could see the use for this, though keep in mind the computer would really treat random as random (as in, you might get a B tile on a ceiling, or half a tree, as that is what random means). Could still be used though if you touched it up.

Or, is what you are thinking is make it a little less square like? Reason I inquire is you can already make a forest at random with the generator, as there is a forest autotile. Use that in the generator, and here's your forest. Cities and overlands, not so much especially as random would mean you'd probably get a lot of islands...or cities in the water. Definitely would stand out but could be fixed up to make it work, and if someone tried to use it for instant game making it would be too obvious too.

Still...with a little more thought I can see a way it might work. Changing to Yes.

Essentially, the way Hexiographer works is each side of a hex (or in this case a square) has a number you can set. So Desert tiles are more likely to spawn adjacent desert tiles, while water tiles are more likely to spawn water tiles. Then it RNGs it all in one big go (takes about a second) and you end up with a fully RNG world or island.

You can also set the frequency of things. For example, if you have Towns set to Frequent then you will end up with more towns randomly spawning per 10 tiles, etc.

I am no coder but I'd be willing to bet that if someone with the know how got into the Dungeon Generator and looked at it they would find it worked exactly the same way except only with "open space tiles" and "walls" as the variables.

Something is in place right now to make it so all the corridors are connected, so to me it seems like the function exists to a limited degree, it just is a matter of adding the "sides" thing that the Hexographer does. I suggest everyone download it (its free) and play around with it for half an hour and I think you will be surprised how simple it is really.

 

[Andar]

And that is exactly one of the shortcuts I mentioned above - single layer. You cannot automate the placement of upper layer tiles without having a list of where they may be placed, or you end up with a fence on water, a tree on lava or a searose on a desert.
And with the large tilesets allowed by RMs, that would have to be a long custom setting for every custom tileset.

Additionally, with hexagonal grid it doesn't really matter what is next tile, because the hexagons automatically fill a natural rounded world structure, especially on that scale - try the same with a 2D-grid like the RM maps, and it is not as easy to find the correct tile setting for the next tile.

It is doable - I never said it is impossible. But it will require a much more elaborate setup than the setup used by the hexographer.

 

[RetroBoy]

It is doable - I never said it is impossible. But it will require a much more elaborate setup than the setup used by the hexographer.

Rad. It probably is not even going to be implemented at all. But I have faith they could if they wanted to and I think it would increase accessibility. Failing an RNG map generator it might be nice if they routinely added maps that you could download from within the editor or something like that. So long as the maps were frequently added. I feel like they should be doing that with the generator too. In fact, I am going to make that its own topic.

 

[bgillisp]

Right. That is why I proposed a slightly different idea where instead we tell the generator to use a tileset, and randomly place the B - E (as in, use the autotile like it does now, then add B - E tiles at random from a tileset). Yes, you will get trees on water and other stuff, but then you would have to edit it and fix that. Still could be used for general idea, which is what I think @RetroBoy wants. Plus, if someone tried it for a quick cash grab it would show easily, just look for the trees on the water and other silliness!