Randomised elements - Yay/Nay?

Milennin

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Not talking about randomisation as a main feature of a game, but the smaller things that don't directly have much of an impact on the story or the gameplay. Things like randomised weather, randomised NPC gender, randomised treasure placement etc. What do people thing of it? Does it get appreciated, or is it a waste of development time?
 

Andar

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It depends on the game.

If you're targeting replayability, then some form of randomization is very nice to prevent players from automatically knowing everything from earlier play-throughs.

If you have a single-story-game that will never be played again after the story is finished, then random effects will have less of an advantage and might even put off people who want to use walk-throughs to save time.
 

Lantiz

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I think the more replay value a game has, the better.
+1 for randomization. :thumbsup-left:
 

bgillisp

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I was considering doing something like this for a murder mystery game. Would randomize who did it, and who had what clues and such. That way you'd not know who was the killer the second time around, as it would still be a mystery.
 

Wavelength

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It depends on the feature, and it depends on how likely you think it is that randomizing it will actually improve how much the player enjoys the feature.

For example, randomized treasure locations - if your dungeon is handmade and the treasure locations are randomly determined at the start of the game (and gone once opened), the randomization will be unappreciated at best and break immersion by being in weird spots at worst. On the other hand, if the dungeons are randomized each time you walk into them, it definitely enhances gameplay to randomize the treasure locations rather than put them in the same general places time after time - this encourages your player to explore if they want to find treasure, and they never know what's around the next corner.

As another example, randomized weather is good for a Harvest Moon-like game to add variation to the locations you are visiting time and time again, but riskier (although still feasible) in a game like Final Fantasy where you only visit each place once or twice and the weather is an important part of each location's aesthetic.

In my own game (which has a lot of action sequences and puzzles which you are allowed to fail without blocking your progression, and is about two hours long - designed for replayability) I add quite a bit of randomization to things like which obstacles spawn and where in the action sequences, and I randomize the initial setup for each puzzle (using a few tricks to ensure it is always winnable). I also allow for slight influence of random factors in battle (such as when bosses will use their special moves).

But outside of this, I don't randomize anything else. I don't randomize what NPCs look like or say; I don't randomize what appears in shops; I don't randomize the maps or map order. Even in my short, highly-replayable game, I don't believe that this would contribute positively to the player's experience - because I can create a much tighter, more clear and more enjoyable experience for the player by choosing what I think is the best thing for NPCs to say or the most sensible items to put in any given shop.

The best question to ask yourself is not "what can randomization add to the player's experience?", but "what will randomization take away from the player's experience?". If you're still happy with the concept after you answer that question thoughtfully and honestly, then go for it.
 

kaukusaki

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I design for replayability so I randomize everything (to a degree). I have tiers of things that can be found / bought dependant on player level so you won't end up with +9 Awesome Sword at level 1. One game I have the hero is a random gender/class when you start. (lots of flags & variables to run lol) But that's just me (I plan my games in advance. A full 8 hour game takes up a standard comp book lol).
 

Alexander Amnell

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I positively hate randomization for the sake of randomization. As a core principle of the overall product, such as is the case with XCOM or with @bgillisp idea of basically turning clue into a video game (which sounds like a pretty neat idea tbh) I can tolerate it but even in those cases I find that games of a similar vein with more of a static feel to them hold more replayability to me than games that randomize a bunch of features for the sake of replayability, though that very well could just be me.

I positively hate the idea of randomizing npcs, if that's the route you want to go then you might as well let me customize them myself, they're already soulless shells of what are all to often already soulless shells of a caricature at that point so if that's your idea of replayability I'd posit you consider customization as an alternative to randomization, though I'd rather have well-written characters that actually seem like they belong in the narrative any day.
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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As with most things, I don't think it's a case of a right or wrong answer, but rather the best answer for your intended game.

With my current project, I do use a certain degree of randomization. For example I am planing on having an "NPC variable" that will be set at a random number within a range, probably 1 thru 5. So that "filler" NPCs will say different things dependent upon the variable. With other dialogue pieces being worked into the potential dialogue options because of switches tied to things like quest switches. Mainly I am looking to implement this, for the sake of making the NPCs feel more "alive" within the game world.

I also use a random weather system in concert with a day & night system to make the world feel more alive.
 

Frogboy

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My game is focused strongly towards exploration so I have a good amount of randomization going on. It likely wouldn't be good idea if my game was more linear, though.
 

MushroomCake28

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As long as it doesn't heavily affect the gameplay I don't mind randomized stuffs. I just really don't like it when some game mechanics depend on rng. If it's like random npc gender or weather, totally fine.
 

SamJones

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For example, randomized treasure locations - if your dungeon is handmade and the treasure locations are randomly determined at the start of the game (and gone once opened), the randomization will be unappreciated at best and break immersion by being in weird spots at worst.
You can counter a lot of that by using limited randomisation, by not making those locations completely random but instead randomly choosing from a pre-made list.
 

Wavelength

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You can counter a lot of that by using limited randomisation, by not making those locations completely random but instead randomly choosing from a pre-made list.
You can certainly do this, but I have to ask what you really gain by doing so, and whether it's worth your time to create as a dev. I think it would fall into the 'unappreciated' category.
 

Frogboy

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You can certainly do this, but I have to ask what you really gain by doing so, and whether it's worth your time to create as a dev. I think it would fall into the 'unappreciated' category.
You don't get wonky positioning and you can also play your own game without knowing exactly where everything will be.
 

kirbwarrior

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There are two forms of randomization that I think will never be a problem;
'Fluff': Where the appearance of something can be random, but doesn't affect game play. If love-struck "Sam" likes the librarian "Jesse" and this leads to a small sidequest, it doesn't hurt gameplay if Sam is picked from eight possible looks and Jesse from six.
'Invisible': Where the player might not even notice the randomness or unconsciously expects it. Encounters actually do this, where you don't know what monsters you will end up fighting but each individual fight doesn't matter. Damage variance where everything was calculated with you doing minimum damage and taking maximum damage.

Mind, those changes don't fundamentally change anything. Rogue-likes are built upon randomly generated content because that's what the genre is. There are certain forms of randomization that I've come across that never make things worse and often better:
In a short rpg I played, the bosses of the first three dungeons were randomly picked as to which you'd fight first. But since the game was built so you could travel to any dungeon in any order, it merely made it so you couldn't "choose" which boss you wanted to fight first. It merely stopped the player from making a meta choice.
Sky Tower Arena had randomized floors between fights (as far as I could tell, the fights were not). But the random was heavily controlled so you'd never get stupid-strong stuff early, weak stuff late, and were guaranteed to have access to everything at least 4 times.
The Devil Axe in Fire Emblem games was an optional weapon that made it clear it's a bad idea to use, but had a risk-reward system (far superior to every axe in it's tier and the next few up and multiplied weapon experience by 8, but 31-luck% chance to backfire and hit you instead). It was never required and was just a cute "Do I feel like gambling this life?"
Requiring luck to be on your side to win a game is bad design. It's why I never* use moves that have less than 100 accuracy in Pokemon. But a silly minigame? A single gimmick weapon or skill? Something that won't get in the player's way? These are fine. And they add to the experience. Oh, and I forgot one fantastic random factor;
The final boss in some rpg always creepily rotated its eyes around and seemed to be watching some invisible object, but then sometimes stared intently at one character. That character was chosen behind the scenes at the beginning of battle and would freak out the first time this happens. It's cute, it helps show how this character freaks out and thus more of who they are, and does nothing to get in the way of the player or randomly screw them.
 

Basileus

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Randomness of elements required to succeed = bad.
Randomness of elements tied to exploration = good.

You definitely do not want to ever have progress blocked by bad use of RNG. Actual progress in the plot should generally be tied to player knowledge and skill, however the rewards of said progress are fair game. In fact, randomness in reward may even be better. The psychology of risk and reward is a funny thing but overall people respond better to an inconsistent reward than a guaranteed one. A player can get desensitized to a simple and predictable reward. "Go down the hall, open the chest that has 4 Potions. Fight. Oh, 3 Bats, that'll take 2 turns and net 36 EXP. Yay." But inconsistency keeps a player more engaged since they can't know what the reward is going to be ahead of time, thus it keeps a certain level of excitement. Even if most of the rewards are the same generic junk they'd be getting anyway, knowing that there is a chance it could be something extremely powerful - no matter how small the chance - still keeps some level of excitement.

Persona 4 does this almost perfectly. On the surface it's a very simple Turn-Based JRPG battle system - hit enemy weaknesses for more damage. The catch is that hitting a weakness also knocks the monster down, and if all of the monsters on the field are all in the "Down" status at the same time you can perform an "All Out Attack" to nuke the field. This is a cool way to clear mob encounters, but if the "All Out Attack" also ends the battle then it triggers a wonderful little thing called "Shuffle Time". After the battle an event triggers and the player is dealt 3-5 cards. These cards are all part of the Tarot set used throughout the game and the effects of each card varies from giving you a new Persona to use in battle, to restoring some HP and SP to the party, to modifying the amount of money and EXP you receive (increasing or decreasing). Then there are the super powerful effects, like giving your active Persona a permanent stat boost, evolving one of your active Persona's skills to one of the next tier skills, or flat out giving your active Persona a full Level Up. Normally you can only pick 1 card and that bonus can be pretty sweet, but sometimes the cards will be marked 1 More or 2 More which let you pick up extra cards and if you manage to pick up all of the cards you trigger the Sweep Bonus which guarantees Shuffle Time after your next battle. This turns each battle into a challenge to not only win, but to win in a way that triggers Shuffle Time. The possibility of Skill Up, Stat Up, and Level Up cards is way more exciting than just grinding fights normally and it's done in a way that still gives money and EXP to keep progressing even if you don't get any cool rewards. It makes each battle matter as even an easy encounter while back-tracking might still grant you a Level Up card if you're very lucky. To a lesser extent there is also the randomized dungeons and treasure chests, with each treasure chest having a chance to be a sparkly golden chest that contains special loot but which needs a Chest Key item to unlock...items which are most easily acquired through Shuffle Time.

Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim does this more for exploration purposes. Outside of the main questlines, many of the side quests use the Radiant Quest system which has the quest select a dungeon that the player has not discovered yet. Depending on how thorough the player is when traveling it can actually be very easy to find dungeons you never knew were there previously this way. This also helps the huge map the feel less empty since every single one of the hundreds of caves and abandoned forts and ruins can be the location for a quest rather than just something that's out there in case the player feels like walking in that direction. This is also done with some of the quest rewards granting random gear. Presumably this is done to give the player a cool item that makes them consider changing up their play style periodically to make use of the powerful new item they got. In practice this does not work that well since Perk points are limited so builds are mostly planned out from the start and any gear not fitting the Perks you were going for is useless. This is probably why Bethesda included ways to respec Perks in the DLC.

Mobile games like Granblue Fantasy and Fate/Grand Order also use that addictive mechanic known as the Gatcha Roll (see also: Large Ship Construction in Kantai Collection). These games have hundreds of playable units with distinctive designs and sometimes personalities (particularly Fate due to the amount of characters fleshed out in other parts of the franchise already). Obviously there needs to be a good way for the player to collect them that also encourages them to play daily. The Gatcha Roll fulfills this need in spades by letting players accumulate resources by fighting and completing quests that can be saved up and later spent to acquire new characters by a random roll. This works somewhat like a loot table with a roll to determine tier (1-5 Stars in Fate) followed by another roll to determine the reward to dish out from that tier. This can pretty much be guaranteed to get the player some solid mid-tier characters to clear quests and event challenges with the ever-present possibility of scoring a rare high-tier character which are highly coveted due to great stats, good skills, and usually amazing artwork. This method relies on a degree of player attachment and personal preference, like Fate series fan favorites Artoria and EMIYA being 5 Star and 4 Star respectively, so players will keep playing for a lucky chance to pull Artoria while having a decent chance to pull EMIYA eventually. The game is perfectly playable without either but the fact that most series fans will want them means that a "dangling the carrot" strategy works pretty well. I suspect this can work pretty well in other formats, but you'll need to 1. inform players about what the highest tier rewards are, and 2. actually make them care about getting them.
 

kirbwarrior

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Randomness of elements tied to exploration = good.
I agree with this statement, but you nearly every type of randomness you pointed out makes me stop playing games. That is literally the worst thing about Gacha games (and don't get be started on how 'whaling' works). And while the idea of how Persona 4 does things sounds good, I've heard bad things about very similar systems. Skyrim's is very neat, especially since it doesn't force the player to get something they don't want.

Random treasures of similar power is fantastic, but varying power often turns people off instead of making them excited from my experience. If, for instance, a treasure chest drops a weapon randomly chosen from the next store after this dungeon can be cool because it will help the party, sometimes making the player want to change classes around to use it. This is equal to how weapons often show up in dungeons, but you can't plan ahead to exactly who will use it. And in the long run, it just saves you money, like how treasures would normally be.
 

Basileus

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@kirbwarrior

It's more personal preference. Given the insane popularity and profitability of the "gatcha" type games (especially the 3 I mentioned) it seems hard to believe that those systems would make players not want to play. There will always be players that dislike RNG or that only like more controlled RNG, but the stats show that games (especially mobile games) with high RNG are a strong market. For more Western and Indie games like that just look at the Rogue-like genre: there is a TON of RNG factors, from completely random, procedurally-generated maps to completely random loot and power ups, to randomly placed enemies of arbitrary strength. My go-to example here is Rogue Legacy. It is a total blast with a castle that changes every time you enter it, even to the point that the first room might be impossible without certain specific power ups. The layout is random, the loot is random, the blessings and curses and possible healing points are random. Even the characters you get (after the first) are all saddled with randomized genetic defects that might be surprisingly useful (if you get the right random room setups) or can be a total death sentence. The key to the experience is fast iteration time and persistent upgrades. If you die, your character will be replaced by one of their 3 randomly-generated children in about a minute. While you lose your gold when you enter the castle, you can still spend your previous character's earnings on permanent upgrades and access to weapons, armor, and runes with special abilities is kept once it has been unlocked. Each generation passes on something to the next; it's almost like Dark Souls where if you never give up and keep bashing your head into that wall it will eventually fall to your insane persistence.

Our experience differ greatly it seems, as several games I play with a stronger RNG factor in loot and power ups have active and devoted communities. I know it's not the end-all-be-all or a surefire success, but it's also wrong to say that "players" dislike it and that it's bad. I find that if you are guaranteed a weapon from the next tier from what you have, but not the type of weapon, then it is both boring and unreliable. There is no variance in the value so no reason for players to get excited over it after maybe the first time on top of the possibility that the weapon type may not be useful to them. If each party member only uses 1 weapon type it gets even worse because it becomes a dice roll of which character gets an upgrade with the only possibility being something they are about to buy in the next town anyway. More variance means there is always the possibility of getting something extra powerful, which also tends to make players more willing the accept weaker loot (up to a point). Obviously you don't want the player to get Excalibur in the first chest of the first dungeon, but opening up those loot tables makes things more interesting and gives a reason for players to actually be excited when they see a treasure chest.

The systems I mentioned don't need to be used exactly, but their popularity and success means that they are worth learning from.
 

kirbwarrior

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Rogue-like genre
This genre is defined by RNG. People play it because that is what the game is. And that is fine, I do like those games, but that's a huge difference from trying to use Rogue-like mechanics in other games.
Gacha games are gambling. With real money. There's scant difference between going down to the slots and pulling than playing a gacha, and just like actual gambling, the house always wins. People are easily swayed into gambling.
I guess I'm too used to how often people get screwed by random systems versus how little they get something good from it. It's why I brought up Pokemon. If you use a move with 95% accuracy, you have a 5% chance of doing nothing. If a chest has a 5% chance of having awesome loot, it's because it has a 50% of not being worth opening.
I'd be far more okay with random elements if they were "positive only" elements. If a chest has a weapon that the game developers wanted to give you (say, the MC's sword upgrade), but it has a 10% chance to instead be 3 upgrades up, that's awesome.
 

Wavelength

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Gacha games are gambling. With real money. There's scant difference between going down to the slots and pulling than playing a gacha, and just like actual gambling, the house always wins. People are easily swayed into gambling
Gacha games aren't gambling unless there's a liquid market out there for selling the items you receive in exchange for real money. A few games do have markets like this but I think that's very rare. Besides that, you are just getting either one arbitrary piece of data or another - neither has any real-world value. It's no different than saying that buying a pack of jelly beans is "gambling" because you might get lots of delicious red cherry jelly beans in your package or might get more of the disgusting black licorice jelly beans.

As far as weapons and armor in treasure chests, there are times where it's cool to do, but there are also so many games where what you find in there isn't going to be as good as what you already have. A system where you upgrade your equipment throughout the game (and that's the source of your power, rather than constant stepping up through the gear treadmill) could be a better mechanic for a game with randomized treasure chests - you can include randomized upgrades (which are always welcome) inside these chests, or you can include full equipment in the chest and provide a way for players to "disenchant" equipment that they own so that they can take the upgrades from it and use them on something else.

Oh man, those black licorice jelly beans are so disgusting. Nasty!
 

kirbwarrior

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Gacha games aren't gambling unless there's a liquid market out there for selling the items you receive in exchange for real money.
1) That sounds like it's gambling but you can't win.
2) Just because you can't liquidate your assets doesn't mean you aren't winning something worth money. The recent Fire Emblem Heroes has people spending literally thousands to try and get a specific character named Hector, and realistically he might worth it. Also, most Gacha games are straddling Japanese gambling laws to see how much they can get out of players and a few are pretty shady about it. If gambling law comes up, I'm pretty sure it's gambling.
a way for players to "disenchant" equipment that they own
This works with the idea of 'positive' randomization. With it, you always get something good, but you could get the actual weapon you want instead of having to break it and put it on something else.
 

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