Recovery Items

Beamlight

Degibeta Team
Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
31
Reaction score
14
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
Hi makerfriends - just enjoying a later night snack and playing around with RPGMaker, and I had a question pop into my mind: How do you guys feel about balancing recovery items in your titles?

Should the average potion restore a higher amount, upwards of 50%, or lower, 30% or even lower? Do you prefer using a static number? Thoughts?
 

Engr. Adiktuzmiko

Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy'
Veteran
Joined
May 15, 2012
Messages
14,682
Reaction score
3,003
First Language
Tagalog
Primarily Uses
RMVXA
Depends really on the game... Earlier value based recovery items can get easily useless if the HP growth of your characters are huge... Percentage based on the other hand needs a huge HP growth in order for each potion tier to make sense, as you need to make sure the percentage difference of healing between tiers is worth it. 

It's like it's easy to make early items useless when using value based recovery, and it's easy to make new items useless when it comes to percent healing...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Warpmind

Twisted Genius
Veteran
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
936
Reaction score
578
First Language
Norwegian
Primarily Uses
Depends a lot on the "feel" of the game, really - the percentage-based potions can be the simplest to manage, and you won't even have to have more than one size potion - say 40% plus/minus variance - and you can keep a decent stock throughout the game without ending up with a half-ton of potions whose usefulness is marginal and mostly outside combat after you reach a certain level.
Static value-based potions... ehh, by themselves, they can become obsolete awfully quick, BUT! if you add a few abilities that manipulate the potions (one character who multiplies the potion effect, or makes a single potion target the entire party, for example), or perhaps a few subquests giving you extra options and benefits if you have a few of the smallest potions to spare (like a church offering its blessings in exchange for restoratives mild enough to not overwhelm a poor peasant's less vigorous physique), they can offer more than percentage-based potions.

Really, it depends a lot on the narrative and setting.
 

Eschaton

Hack Fraud
Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Messages
2,029
Reaction score
532
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
N/A
Whatever you do, please consider the following:

1.  The player isn't supposed to hoard healing items

2.  Healing items aren't supposed to obsolesce

Balance accordingly.

Also, healing items will always compete with inns and healing skills.  There have to be trade-offs.  There has to be a reason to use healing items over healing skills and vice-versa.  Healing items have to have a drawback and/or a boon compared to healing skils and vice-versa.
 

bgillisp

Global Moderators
Global Mod
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
13,522
Reaction score
14,255
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMVXA
I went static in my game, just because I've always felt it weird when a game uses % based and hoards the high level ones to late in the game. After all, a 500 HP potion might be available early game, which is 100% of your HP then, but most games that use % based systems would never dream of giving you even 1 100% HP recover potion.

However, I did add in an option to upgrade your earlier healing potions to the next level with an alchemy system (thanks to a crafting script). It's a 2:1 ratio, so 2 lower level healing potions can become 1 medium potion, once you know the recipe (which is 2 lesser potions + some ingredients). This way they are not totally useless at least.
 

Beamlight

Degibeta Team
Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
31
Reaction score
14
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
Whatever you do, please consider the following:

1.  The player isn't supposed to hoard healing items

2.  Healing items aren't supposed to obsolesce

Balance accordingly.

Also, healing items will always compete with inns and healing skills.  There have to be trade-offs.  There has to be a reason to use healing items over healing skills and vice-versa.  Healing items have to have a drawback and/or a boon compared to healing skils and vice-versa.
I had to rewrite my entire post after realizing I read #1 wrong, heheh; I do agree that healing items should be used, not hoarded. I'm As for the competitive nature with inns and healing skills, that is something I hugely agree with. They have to be balanced right; the problem with percentage is that they will adapt so much, but their price will remain the same.

I think, naturally, like everyone said everything will depend on the game that is being developed; I think back to Persona where healing items seemed to compete with everything else I invested in, and the weaker items seemed to depreciate fast.

Good discussion so far! :D
 

Warpmind

Twisted Genius
Veteran
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
936
Reaction score
578
First Language
Norwegian
Primarily Uses
Well, the thing you can do with healing items, of course, is to reduce the available stock. If you find healing items are a bit too competitive with a room in the inn, toss potions out of the regular shops and make them something you have to barter with the local alchemist for; perhaps a quick sidequest for the slime droplets he needs, for example. If the cash value tells the player that using six healing potions on the party is a better deal than using the inn, set up the local availability (loot in chests, etc.) so that the player can only recover four new potions.

Also, to incentivize inn use over out-of-combat potion use, perhaps have the inns provide their own benefits - a temporary stat buff, perhaps, and maybe a beneficial random event that might pop up, such as a previous guest forgot a small pouch of coin, a party member has a particularly invigorating dream, two party members spend the better part of the night sitting on the inn's roof, moongazing and building a stronger relationship... The possibilities are almost endless.
 

Beamlight

Degibeta Team
Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
31
Reaction score
14
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
Well, the thing you can do with healing items, of course, is to reduce the available stock. If you find healing items are a bit too competitive with a room in the inn, toss potions out of the regular shops and make them something you have to barter with the local alchemist for; perhaps a quick sidequest for the slime droplets he needs, for example. If the cash value tells the player that using six healing potions on the party is a better deal than using the inn, set up the local availability (loot in chests, etc.) so that the player can only recover four new potions.

Also, to incentivize inn use over out-of-combat potion use, perhaps have the inns provide their own benefits - a temporary stat buff, perhaps, and maybe a beneficial random event that might pop up, such as a previous guest forgot a small pouch of coin, a party member has a particularly invigorating dream, two party members spend the better part of the night sitting on the inn's roof, moongazing and building a stronger relationship... The possibilities are almost endless.
Interesting ideas, Warpmind! The "Invigorating Dream" reminds me of some of Square-Enix's cutscenes - the Shadow dream sequences from Final Fantasy VI, the Super Mario RPG "Ghost Flags" where the three ghosts give you a quest in the town of Monstroso.

The temporary stat buffs are also great suggestions as well, and something I may look into using! Bravo!

In terms of skills, what has come to mind possibly for me in the past hour or so is possibly gating the use of potions in combat - cooldowns, etc. - to encourage skill use and a dedicated healer over items. Thoughts?
 

Warpmind

Twisted Genius
Veteran
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
936
Reaction score
578
First Language
Norwegian
Primarily Uses
Well, using a dedicated healer - that can be tweaked; say the party healer is the only one with a hefty bonus to item use - if I recall correctly, the mechanics needed are described under the Custom Formulas threads - http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/1143-how-to-make-the-most-of-custom-formulae-part-1/?hl=%20custom%20%20damage or http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/1716-how-to-make-the-most-of-custom-formulae-part-2/

Then it suddenly becomes a question of "Does the Healer use magical healing this turn, or a potion?" :)
 

Wavelength

MSD Strong
Global Mod
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
5,624
Reaction score
5,104
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMVXA
There's no correct answer to this, and it's not even really right to hold a preference without any context surrounding the question.  Final Fantasy 3, Final Fantasy 12, Star Ocean, Diablo, and Dark Cloud are all going to lend themselves to different types of healing potions and different appropriate values for healing.

Among several of the factors you need to think about are I mentioned in this discussion about Making Restorative Items More Useful:

Healing items - particularly how powerful they should be, how plentiful they should be, and how much they should cost - are situational in a ton of different ways.  I rarely see indie or professional games get this right.

First, consider buying five 200 HP Potions versus one 1000 HP Hi-Potion.  The developer should consider such factors such as:

  • Battle difficulty vs. Dungeon difficulty: Will you need that 1000 HP in one shot (rather than spending five turns to heal it) because enemies are that powerful, or is each individual troop a cakewalk, making it feasible to use your potions after the battle for sustain in a long dungeon that can grind you down?  Are characters fully healed after battle (making the use of Potions for "sustain" irrelevant)?
  • Concept of turns and time: Some RPGs don't use turns at all, which changes everything.  In some ABS's (e.g. Dark Cloud), you can just go to the pause menu while a monster is wailing on you on chow down as many restorative items as you want, meaning 5 Potions are every bit as useful as 1 Hi-Potion.  In others (e.g. the Tales series), you have to wait a certain amount of "cooldown" time before you can use a second item, or items take time to use.
  • Inventory limits: How many of a given item can you hold?  Additionally, is there a cap to the total number of items you can hold at a time? (e.g. Super Mario RPG, Azure Dreams, World of Warcraft)
  • Character HP curves: The full 1000 heal could be a waste for a character that only has 600 HP.  The designer should consider the potential difference in HP between characters due to class or level, and the overall HP level of characters due to how far in the game players might be.
There are a lot of different levers the designer can play with to come up with a good balance, so that both items are potentially useful and the decision between Potions or Hi-Potions is an interesting one.  Some of the more obvious ones include:

  • Price: The most obvious differentiator.  High battle difficulty and strict inventory limits, for example, would mean the Hi-Potion should be more than five times the cost.of the Potion.  If these items are both very cheap compared to the amount of money your player has, you have deprived them of an interesting decision.
  • Rarity: Perhaps the Hi-Potion isn't available in stores at all, and can only be found while adventuring.  Or maybe it's only available after the halfway point in the game, or is only available in limited supply at shops.
  • Satiation: If healing items can be used outside of battle, can they be used repeatedly, or is there a limit?  (This is popular with "Food"-type healing items, such as in Tales of Symphonia, where you can only eat one meal after each battle.)
  • Incomparables: Giving one item or the other a bonus or malus besides the base restoration makes the decision more interesting than "do arithmatic" and would be a useful tool for the designer in games where the 5 regular potions would normally be a cheaper way to get the same effect.
  • Adjusting any of the factors above: Smart adjustments to battle difficulty, after-battle healing, character HP curves, or especially inventory limits can take a broken system and make it live again.
Next, consider buying a Potion (heals 200 HP) versus an Ether (heals 200 MP).  So many games get this balance wrong, because the designer needs to consider:

  • Cost and power of healing spells: This is the most important one.  If your healer can heal 200 HP for 5 MP, the Ether is much more useful outside of battle, and possibly in battle as well.  The basic out-of-battle formula is ((Ether power * Healing Spell healing) / (Healing Spell cost * Ether price)) vs. (Potion power / Potion price).  The higher number represents the better item.
  • Cost and power of offensive spells: Let's say you take an average of 50 damage per turn in battle, and using a 100 MP Fireball shortens the average battle by one turn.  Using 200 MP has saved you only half of the HP that a Potion could have restored.
  • Characters' Max MP and MP Regen: In some games, you don't really need the Ether at all.  And in some games, you restore all of your MP (but not your HP) after each battle, making the use of Ether a solely battle-focused decision.
  • Battle difficulty vs. Dungeon difficulty: It shows up here, too, because it determines whether you have the time to use the Ether then a healing spell within a battle while monsters are wailing on you.
In addition to Price, Rarity, Incomparables, Inventory Limits, etc., the designer has a few additional levers to work with:

  • Spell use restrictions: The most common one is to forbid spell use outside of battle, meaning you need to use a turn in battle to heal characters.  This isn't a very good one, because it's very easy to abuse by waiting to kill the final, weakest monster in a troop until your party is all healed up.  Other restrictions, however, such as only being able to heal low-HP allies with magic, could get the job done (but require elegant design so as to not annoy the player).
  • Item vs. Spell incomparables: Perhaps most healing spells are more focused on buffs or curing statuses, as opposed to direct healing.  Now your MP-restoring items have a slightly different use than your HP-restoring ones.
  • No healing spells!: This requires excellent battle balancing skills, but it does make battles much more exciting (especially if Healing items are limited as well), and as a bonus, it also takes away the easiest direct comparison between Potion and Ether, and forces you to think about how much damage you might be able to avoid by singing your enemies with an extra Fireball.
Finally, like you mentioned, Hime, there's also the question of whether your Potion should heal 200 HP or 20% of your Max HP.  The 200 HP is much easier for most players to understand and calculate, so if all other things were equal, it would be the better way to go.  However, there are several factors that are important:

  • Character HP curves: Gentle HP curves mean that your fixed-HP items can stay useful for a longer time.  In one of my games, despite other stats growing, Max HP stays flat at 100 for the entire game!  Steep HP curves mean your fixed-HP items will quickly become outdated.  Additionally, if Warriors have three times the HP of Mages, then your percentage-healing item is three times as useful when used on them.
  • Spell calculations: Do your healing spells restore a number of HP (much more common for spells), or a percentage of the ally's Max HP (rare for spells)?  You might want to match it with items, or you might want to intentionally pick the other one for items to create an incomparable.
  • Granularity: In a game where the three main types of Potion heal 20 HP, 500 HP, and 9999 HP, especially where Inventory Limits or Satiation are at play, the player will find themselves at some weird, uncomfortable decisions ("what do I use to restore 3600 missing HP?") at certain points throughout the game.  This is much less likely when your three options are 20% Max, 50% Max, and 100% Max.
  • Game economy: The single most important factor, and perhaps the one that designers most often botch.  If the amount of money you earn increases exponentially throughout the game (e.g. you're earning 10 gold from early monsters, 2500 gold from midgame monsters, and 60000 gold from endgame monsters), it's actually very important that your items (and equipment!) do not stay relevant through the entire game.  If they do, the player will be able to buy everything they want as well as everything they don't really want, and the whole system becomes very uninteresting.  You might as well not have money in the first place.  This is one of the strongest arguments against %-based Restorative Items.
I don't think there are too many levers you can play with for this one, so as a designer you really have to nail it when it comes to the above factors (like character HP curves and game economy), and then make a smart decision about flat vs. percentage healing items.

These are just a few of the things a good designer will consider when they create restorative items in their RPG!  They're also a few of the things that a poor designer will overlook as they go for the traditional Potion - Hi Potion - Max Potion setup without considering how it will play with the dozens of other mechanics in their game.  It's really kind of a trap for newbie RPG designers, who want to make an RPG with all the classic fixin's, and it actually dries the fun out of what might otherwise be much more interesting battles/dungeons.

It's for that reason that unless you can point to a strategic depth that the existence of Items can add to your game (and a reasonable minority of games do accomplish this), it's better to just get rid of consumable items altogether, and pay close attention to battle balance.  This will often make for quicker, headier, more thrilling, and ultimately more fun games than the standard Item setup will.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Latest Threads

Latest Posts

Latest Profile Posts

Couple hours of work. Might use in my game as a secret find or something. Not sure. Fancy though no? :D
Holy stink, where have I been? Well, I started my temporary job this week. So less time to spend on game design... :(
Cartoonier cloud cover that better fits the art style, as well as (slightly) improved blending/fading... fading clouds when there are larger patterns is still somewhat abrupt for some reason.
Do you Find Tilesetting or Looking for Tilesets/Plugins more fun? Personally I like making my tileset for my Game (Cretaceous Park TM) xD
How many parameters is 'too many'??

Forum statistics

Threads
105,862
Messages
1,017,049
Members
137,570
Latest member
fgfhdfg
Top