Remove "First Language"

[HexMozart88]

There are very few people on here who are actually honest about their first language, and a lot of times, it may be because they don't speak enough English to understand what it means, which is fine. But a lot of people on support threads are getting frustrated because they're essentially being lied to. That's why you have people being rude to people who don't speak English well, because they weren't prepared for the language barrier. There's no way to really fix this issue, so that's why I suggest simply removing that option so no one's being lied to anymore. Either that, or just say "Do you speak English natively, yes or no?"

 

[Trihan]

I don't agree with this honestly. Sure some people put a language that isn't actually their native one and that can be frustrating, but I'd say that given how many multilingual members we have, it's still a valuable tool to allow for easier communication in the event that someone whose native language isn't English is struggling to say what they need to in it and we have someone who understands the language they *do* natively speak.

 

[SGHarlekin]

If someone uses a tool wrong, you don't ban the tool. Removing it wouldn't improve or solve anything. You can just as easily tell if someone doesn't speak english well by the way they write/talk. With or without the "first language".

In fact Whenever I converse with someone who didn't put english in their first language and their posts are kinda rough, I try to explain whatever needs explaining in more simple terms a non- native might have an easier time understanding. (Keeping in mind I'm not native either lol.)

But yeah. Only because someone's hitting his own finger with a hammer, you don't blame the hammer.

 

[Trihan]

To add to what I said, using the logic you've used here we might as well also get rid of the "Primarily Uses" because someone might not be honest about which version of RPG Maker they use and that can cause misunderstandings too.

 

[Iron_Brew]

If someone is clearly ESL and they've put "First Language: English" then when they don't speak particularly good English the problem there exists between their keyboard and their chair, imo.

Which is to say: I don't think you can blame the feature (which is useful) for people not using it properly

 

[RCXGaming]

I would not phrase it as overdramatically as "lied to", for one.

For second, if someone chooses to put English despite not speaking English natively, then that's their own problem. I think it's a bit silly to remove the feature just for something like that.

When it comes to people who actually use the First Language tab properly, it usually tells me something about them I otherwise wouldn't have known. (eg. how @SGHarlekin speaks german??)

 

[Sword_of_Dusk]

I have a sneaking suspicion at what topic "broke the camel's back" in regards to leading to this one being made, but I will say not to fall back on that one as any kind of proof that the mentioned feature needs to be removed.

 

[HOLYMOTHER]

Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Having worked as a translator of poetry, I speak a good number of languages -- many possessed of mechanics alien to English -- and so find ESL much more parsable. If, say, definite article is missing, I don't even notice. And if someone gets annoyed at an individual struggling to speak English, I would sooner blame them for being ignorant and provincial before the person actually trying.

Which isn't to say I agree with the premise of the OP. It's much more probable that, if someone speaks poor English while having English listed as their native tongue, they've only been failed by the pandemonic educational systems of the anglosphere or have otherwise been affected by the myriad causes of the world's plummeting average of intelligence.

And if it is true that some non-native English speaker has borne false witness and listed themself as otherwise, I can hardly blame them in a world where America and its many satrapies and "NGOs," to better foist their great imperial culture and hegemony on the world, see to it that every Montagnard in Kon Tum and Shroog of the marsh should speak English as a first language before the dying tongue their ancestors spoke for thousands of years.

 

[Htlaets]

If someone is rude to an ESL poster because they filled out a form wrong, that's on them.

Not to mention that they could be confusing an ESL poster with a child whose command of the language has yet to develop. Or, perhaps they have a disability.

All that really matters is that it's clear if they have trouble communicating, then what they have listed as their language is irrelevant. Just either try to work with them. Or don't. No need to be rude about it unless they're being rude about it.

 

[asuran20]

In my opinion, saying that they are being "lied to" is too dramatic. Of course, people shouldn't be lying about their native language but, it's not something so grave. It's more like a white lie that doesn't affect anyone.

Even some american natives can have trouble with their own language due to disability or lack of proper education.

As for the people getting frustated with this, the answer is pretty simple: if you don't have the patience to help someone who is struggling with english (with or without the first language) simply ignore the thread and go do something less stressful for you. You will be helping both sides by staying out of something that you don't have patience enough to handle.

 

[ATT_Turan]

Unlike @Sword_of_Dusk, I don't know which specific thread this is in reference to.

That being said, I can't say I've seen people being rude to others for their poor language.

a lot of times, it may be because they don't speak enough English to understand what it means, which is fine.

I mean, kind of fine? I would expect if your English skills are that poor, you would be using translation software to help you fill out the Web site information. I make every effort, and I see the same from others, to be civil when suggesting to someone who appears to not be a native speaker that they have the field filled out incorrectly.

That's why you have people being rude to people who don't speak English well, because they weren't prepared for the language barrier.

As I said, I haven't seen this. To me, the First Language is really designed to help the poster. If someone says they speak English, I'm going to interpret the words that they use, and just tell them if they're insufficiently clear.

If the poster says up front that they speak a different language, I usually take the additional effort to try to guess at other things they might mean if their exact words don't make sense as written.

I haven't seen anyone get upset that they're "lied to," and I haven't seen people be rude about language. I have pointed out to people when they use such poor language that they're hard to understand, and sometimes they choose to be offended by that, but if I said it civilly that's on them.

If this is because of a specific incident in one thread, I don't think it makes sense to suggest site-wide policy changes over one thing.

Edit: I think I found the thread Sword was referencing. I don't believe that's an actual case of the language being wrong, but of an underlying issue with the OP. I also don't believe the response was very rude, but that's my moral guidelines, not yours. There's been enough history with that poster recently for some snark to be acceptable.

 

[Iron_Brew]

If what I said in that thread was construed as rude in any way I wholeheartedly apologise, I was just bein' a goof. Didn't mean to be rude!

 

[Trihan]

If what I said in that thread was construed as rude in any way I wholeheartedly apologise, I was just bein' a goof. Didn't mean to be rude!

Oh, of course this is your fault. What did you do this time?

 

[ShadowDragon]

I do speak english, but main language is dutch.

I can say I got some trouble with some difficult english words that I dont know,
or what it exactly means, so I need to search it to proper answer it.

I know most basic english, which is mostly good enough is most cases,
as long we can understand what they mean, it's all good, otherwise, they
could DM them with their language barrier to explain it better without a massive
wall we cannot understand at all.

being honest on your first language is better than not have it.
so I dont really agree to remove the option, it's more as language they
talk too

not everyone know perfectly english, so I would let them stay, but they need
to be honest at least to help them the best way we could.

 

[Arthran]

I don't really forsee any positive impact from removing the feature entirely. It won't somehow boost the English skills of non-native speakers, nor will it boost anybody's ability to recognize or interpret poorly written English. All it will do is impede the people who do use the feature properly.

And honestly, if there are people legitimately getting upset about this, I'd say that the issue is mostly on them. If a person is bad at communicating in Engish, it shouldn't really be that hard to infer that from the content of their post--regardless of what is listed as their first language.

And I mean, when these types of mistakes occur, is it really something worth getting upset about? Personally, if the worst thing that happens to me today is that I witness a stranger on the internet mistakenly list the wrong first language on an internet forum... I'll probably be thankful rather than upset.

 

[HexMozart88]

I should probably clarify a few things. I'm not angry that there are people who don't speak English well, and I'm not angry that they're not honest. But I've seen people who are. And yes, perhaps lied to was too strong of a word. Just couldn't think of anything else at the time. But I don't think saying "oh well they tried" would do anything. Perhaps instead of removing it, maybe add an explanation of what it is? So that they could translate it to their own language and have a better understanding.

 

[ATT_Turan]

Perhaps instead of removing it, maybe add an explanation of what it is? So that they could translate it to their own language and have a better understanding.

That's a fine idea. But (maybe some non-English users can chime in here) do the words "first language" run through a translator mean something else in a different language as is?

My feeling from the people I've seen respond to comments about it: most people who have it filled out incorrectly aren't using a translator, they're winging it off of their rudimentary English skills and guessing at those words.

So in that case, having an explanation next to it (which is still a perfectly good notion) wouldn't help, because someone not using a translator wouldn't understand the explanation, either.

I just don't think there's any way to make the system foolproof unless the Web site itself has localized translations.

 

[Mac15001900]

do the words "first language" run through a translator mean something else in a different language as is?

This is a very good point I haven't really thought about. "First language" is a bit of a phrase - in that it means a bit more that just its composite words. It usually specifically refers to someone's mother tongue, or I guess the language they learned first. This isn't really preserved when translating it literally, unless the target language also uses an equivalent phrase. I can see how this could be confusing - for all someone knows, that form could be asking about your first preference for which language do you want the website to be in. You don't even need a translator failure, just someone who knows what those words mean individually, but not what's generally referred to when they're used together.

EDIT: To actually answer your question a bit, using Google Translate:
- German translation is 'Muttersprache', which is correct (literally meaning Mother language)
- French is 'première langue', which is also fine (première being closer to 'primary' than 'first', so that should generally be clear)
- Polish is 'pierwszy język', which is a literal translation, and may not be very clear. In Polish you'd generally say 'język ojczysty' (literally meaning the language of your origin country). 'Pierwszy język' might still be understandable within the right context, but I can definitely see that one potentially being mistaken for something else.

 

[TheoAllen]

If someone didn't put Indonesian in their first language and we engaged in a DM, we probably wouldn't start "hey, let's talk in our language instead".

I guess the perk of being non-native is, I usually see the general idea instead of nitpicking. If Indonesian is translated into English word by word, it sounds like broken English. I learned that after I taught someone who wanted to learn our language.

I saw a rude response a few times a long time ago, it definitely happened. Personally, I just learned that I do not trust the user's first language when they:

1. Recently sign up.
2. Do not interact with us and become part of us (only came here for support).
3. Two-digit message counts.

Out of curiosity though, is the first language set to English, a default choice when you sign up? or is it assigned manually? I don't want to create a new account just to figure that out.

 

[AphoticAmaranth]

Out of curiosity though, is the first language set to English, a default choice when you sign up? or is it assigned manually? I don't want to create a new account just to figure that out.

It's a required field that must be manually filled in during sign up, so no choices involved.

On that note, perhaps rather than outright remove it, how about making it optional?