"Revive kills zombies" Overdone?

[Ashton]

This is a mechanic I'm considering for my game as a sort of genius bonus - the first boss is a ghost, and your given 1 revival item before the battle --- but if you use it on the enemy instead, you get an instant-win!

Alternately, I've considered subverting it where the revive instead makes the enemy MORE POWERFUL...

In general, revival items are readily available in the game, BUT are very expensive, so I could see that as being somewhat balanced.

Thoughts?

 

[Paladin-Cleric of Awesome]

Lol. Like the phantom train in fial fantasy 6. Took me ages to work out if I used a Phoenix down it killed it. Lol.

I like it when you turn things like tht around. Go for it.

 

[Eschaton]

The trope has been done to death.  It's ubiquitous, exploitable, and it robs the player of any meaningful or climactic battles that happen to be against undead.

I'm personally avoiding that trope and instead going to include classic "Turn Undead" spells.

 

[Ralpf]

I don't mind healing spells hurting undead, but I'm not fond of reviving items being insta-kill, or do max damage (as in FFVIII if my memory serves). Turn undead is a good idea, also holy spells, though if you are going to have spells/skills specifically designed to fight undead, you'd want to make the undead strong enough that you would want to use them.

 

[Yuzuru Kuzuryu]

I think it would be fine to make unread enemies vulnerable to revival, especially if you make your ghost-boss extremely OP and the only way to defeat him is to use a revival item.

 

[Ashton]

Lol. Like the phantom train in fial fantasy 6. Took me ages to work out if I used a Phoenix down it killed it. Lol.

I like it when you turn things like tht around. Go for it.

That's where I first ran into the trope (not to mention the still-laughed-about Vanish+Death=enemy (Even bosses!) removed from battle

The trope has been done to death.  It's ubiquitous, exploitable, and it robs the player of any meaningful or climactic battles that happen to be against undead.

I'm personally avoiding that trope and instead going to include classic "Turn Undead" spells.

That's what I was thinking, I dont know exactly how many people still remembered the 'revive kills zombies' trope, so it was only a small pawfull I wanted it to be a Genius Bonus.

I don't mind healing spells hurting undead, but I'm not fond of reviving items being insta-kill, or do max damage (as in FFVIII if my memory serves). Turn undead is a good idea, also holy spells, though if you are going to have spells/skills specifically designed to fight undead, you'd want to make the undead strong enough that you would want to use them.

That's what going to happen later in the game. At this point though you have 1 fighter and 1 black mage, so... yeah...

I think it would be fine to make unread enemies vulnerable to revival, especially if you make your ghost-boss extremely OP and the only way to defeat him is to use a revival item.

I dont think I want to go _too_ OP - I want players who dont know about the trope to still be able to win (since how logical is it, game-mechanics-wise, that using a "bring this player back to life" item on a zombie would kill it? many would expect it to restore the monster's HP to max or something)

 

[Curia Chasea]

Back in the day when I played Septerra Core, the Undead enemies had a weakness to full-heal items being an insta-kill. The mechanic itself however was good since the undead had a few important abilities:

- A ton of HP
- They can summon lesser undead to battle

- They have high physical resistance

- their damage is high once they approach you

And the items that could instakill them were NOT CHEAP. 

That being said - If you are not planning to put too many undead enemies, I would suggest going for it. Especially since this is the first boss, so you can give the player some unfair advantage. Just try not to overdo the instakills or it will get old. 

As for "turn undead" spells. Those are basically the "Enemy weak to X - Player has X spell". Spell or Item, it is functionally the same thing. If anything, I suggest adding skills that have a hidden effect on them. For that example, imagine a skill called 'Skull Crusher". This delivers physical damage and has a chance to stun (or just stuns) enemies BUT when used on a Skeleton it will insta-kill it. Its a minor thing that grants the player an edge AND it fills in some player expectations. If the player connects the "Skull Crusher" name to "Wait - Skeletons have skulls. What will happen?" and will see it has greater effect - he will have a short moment of awe. 

The revive item also fell back on this idea, however veteran RPG players already know how it works. I would not look down on it though. Not every person who plays your game will be a veteran. Just try not to overdose on the undead and you will be fine with your idea. 

 

[Probotector 200X]

I like the whole "revive destroys undead" thing.

One way to balance it is to have revive items being really rare and/or expensive. That's kind of common in Dragon Quest, at least at first.

Or for a real surprise have revive items actually revive the enemy, returning them to their stronger, healthier alive form. Want to pick off that Zombie Dragon because you don't like it's putrid breath attack? Try to revive to insta-kill it, but instead it's revived as a full-powered, fully aware Elder Dragon with a destructive fire breath and a powerful arsenal of ancient magic!

 

[C-C-C-Cashmere (old)]

Nope, this is an example of good game design. Different spells should have wildly different strategies. It's boring if all the spells do the same thing.

You should also implement that if you use fire spells on fire enemies, it heals them. The more strategy required, the better.

 

[wildhalcyon]

I think using a revive item (or spell) as a guaranteed instant kill probably isn't the best solution, particularly for bosses. As others have mentioned, it's been done before, it's well-known in the genre, and it lets the player cheese through the enemy encounter. There are plenty of ways to change or subvert the trope that would be more interesting.

1. Revive does a significant amount of damage, but not max-damage.

2. Revive has a chance to instantly kill, but it's not a guarantee (good if the item is uncommon and there's no way to reload a save).

3. Revive makes the enemy more powerful or just heals them. Interesting subversion, but once someone figures it out they'll never do it again. Unless there's a reason to heal them or make them more powerful. Maybe you get quadruple exp or gold from killing the more powerful version, for instance. Good if players want an interesting risk/reward trade-off for using an uncommon and expensive item on an enemy.

4. Revive has some other non-damaging effect on the enemy. It slows them, blinds them, creates a weakness (maybe they're only weak to fire AFTER a revive, or maybe they're more weak to fire), it changes their attack AI, etc.

 

[C-C-C-Cashmere (old)]

OH I think I misunderstood the question... or just didn't read. I think that using "healing spells" on a zombie is a good way to damage them, but using potions or revive items on a zombie doesn't make sense. It should just heal/revive them.

My bad.

 

[omen613]

Depends on how you treat "undead" in your game.

Could have it that once you defeat an undead creature...they come back to life in X turns. but if you use a revive spell on them they don't come back.

Could make it so revive items/spells can always reduce an undead's HP in half

Could make it so revive items/spells cast a doom status effect that kills them after X turns have passed...instead of instant kill.

Undead could just be a status effect that prevents you from having HP restored...and using revive removes that status effect.

 

[Cutie Mark Keldeo]

It is an overused mechanic, but it's so iconic of RPGs that it doesn't feel like a problem.  Using healing spells to damage undead creatures goes all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons, and quite possibly before.  However I do feel that bosses should be immnune to the "instant death" aspect of it.  A revive spell or item shouldn't stop a boss in one hit, which could be justified by the enemy being so powerful it can resist things that its minions can't.  

Using the well-known example from FFVI, it existed more as a "reward" for a player who was clever enough to give it a try, or even realize that the Phantom Train was undead, since it doesn't exactly resemble a zombie.  The game, while a masterpiece was developed in a time before Internet culture was so widespread, and one could simply go to IGN or Gamefaqs for a detailed walkthrough.  It was a secret found within the pages of a printed guide, or perhaps Nintendo Power.  In any sense though, why waste your Revivify / Phoenix Down on the train when you can suplex it?  

 

[Matseb2611]

One of the things a revive item could do is something like a double-edged effect. So for example it might deliver a huge amount of damage to an undead boss or stun them for a turn, but at the same time it also makes them super aggravated for a turn or two. Or even better, in order to keep things unpredictable, a revive item could have an entirely different effect on different enemies. They are different enemies after all.

There are lots of things that could be done, but one important question you should ask with each of those is - would it make sense in your game's world/setting?

 

[Curia Chasea]

Depends on how you treat "undead" in your game.

Could have it that once you defeat an undead creature...they come back to life in X turns. but if you use a revive spell on them they don't come back.

Could make it so revive items/spells can always reduce an undead's HP in half

Could make it so revive items/spells cast a doom status effect that kills them after X turns have passed...instead of instant kill.

Undead could just be a status effect that prevents you from having HP restored...and using revive removes that status effect.

All are great suggestions actually. I love the idea of Revive being the Undead version of casting Doom. 

There are lots of things that could be done, but one important question you should ask with each of those is - would it make sense in your game's world/setting?

Also - this. This is always a great approach to creating anything in your game. 

 

[Ashton]

Wow, looks like I kicked a hornets nest ^___^

I like the idea that 'revive has different effects on differents mobs' I may go with that, though I'll have to decide how ot handle it. (kinda like the Doom idea, though might give it a longer turn-counter (iirc FF used 3 turns, I might make it take 6 to kill the enemy) 

I'm toying with the boss having an alternate form that is only used if you hit him with the 'revive' which changes him from a zombie back into... a necromancer!  So... yeah, you just traded a low-attack tank for a glass-canon who can wipe you out in two turns if the virtual dice fall wrong and he uses his most powerful spells... (though wheaher to turn him bakc into a ghost or not when he's defeated...)

My biggest concern with this at the m though is I dont want this to become a "grind $$$ to max out revives then use them on every undead battle" --- by the time you get to a shop (about 4 or 5 areas into the game) you already have two party members (and possibly 2 temporary ones if you choose to recruit them) so you can buy Pheonix Ashes there (though at a high cost, likes 5000 each --- and the BOSS battles only net you like 200g) if players chose to grind for $$$ then it would throw off the balance radically since to get that much $$$ they'd also gain so much EXP that they've be one-hit-KO-ing all troops and the Boss battles would be a breeze...

 

[Eschaton]

I personally think having items that revive party members being purchaseable

a) makes the game too easy and,

2) doesn't lend death the respect, gravity, and permanence it deserves.

Rare reviving items make the undead more dangerous, that's for sure.  Final Fantasy set yet another bad precedent by taking declawing the undead.  Final Fantasy I?  I dreaded encounters with the undead because they could paralyze the entire party.  Even lower leveled corpses could lead to a TPK.  After FFII?  Naw, just cast Raise on all of them, they're not dangerous at all.

 

[wildhalcyon]

I personally think having items that revive party members being purchaseable

a) makes the game too easy and,

2) doesn't lend death the respect, gravity, and permanence it deserves.

Rare reviving items make the undead more dangerous, that's for sure. Final Fantasy set yet another bad precedent by taking declawing the undead. Final Fantasy I? I dreaded encounters with the undead because they could paralyze the entire party. Even lower leveled corpses could lead to a TPK. After FFII? Naw, just cast Raise on all of them, they're not dangerous at all.

That's just a symptom in general of later Final Fantasy games being very easy. In FF1 LIFE was a relatively powerful spell (level 5) - red mages don't even get it until they class change. Even then LIFE is a precious boon to the player, since there are now phoenix downs. If Phoenix downs were treated like Yggdrasil leaves in Dragon Quest it wouldn't be such a problem.

In FFVI there are almost no hard bosses, but the Phantom Train comes close, and the fact that he's crushed by a simple store-bought item is disappointing.

 

[Ashton]

I personally think having items that revive party members being purchaseable

I have a whole two-sided spiel on whether Revive items should be found or bought, I think that's another entire  thread...

In FFVI there are almost no hard bosses, but the Phantom Train comes close, and the fact that he's crushed by a simple store-bought item is disappointing.

The problem is that the internet's made that common knowledge, back when FF3/6 (dep on japanese/american numbering --- I actually played it as FF3) came out, there was no major internet, so if you were willing to risk it, then it was a genius bonus and I think a great idea (in fact I bet most of the original players discovered it by accident). However, today, it's too easy to find out so it becomes disappointing.

 

[Eschaton]

I think any stratagem tactic that could break the game in your favor is poor design, even if it is an Easter egg. 

Edit:  by "break the game" I don't mean simply winning, I mean winning by trivializing any difficulty.