Rogue Class Skills

Discussion in 'Game Mechanics Design' started by Grunwave, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Aesica

    Aesica undefined Veteran

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    Of course video games are art, but "art" does have some basic guidelines if you want to create something most people will apprecaite vs something they just disregard as crap.
     
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  2. Redeye

    Redeye Chronicles Creator Veteran

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    It's pretty common sense. If you can get away with merging two skills into one, then you probably should for the sake of player convenience. Nobody really likes to see cluttered screens. Although, this can be avoided if you plan on using a Skill Equip system, but you still have to make sure to make your skills actually interesting.
     
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  3. Grunwave

    Grunwave Veteran Veteran

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    Not sure if the Original Post is worded too vaguely, but I am asking for particular skill suggestions. Do you think it is too vague? That might explain why the topic is being derailed. Should I reword the Original Post?
     
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  4. Kupotepo

    Kupotepo Fantasy realist Veteran

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    @Grunwave, poison knife which gives enemy damage with poison state.
    poison bomb which all enemies poison state.
    Spinning Knife which delivers a heavy attack.
    A mug which is an attack with stealing an item.
    Gust Slash is an attack with hit two enemies.
    Throwing Dagger is a ranged attack which caused a fear state.
    Shadow Fang is a melee dark attack with all enemies.
    Leg Sweep is a skill which causes Stuns State.
    Fleet of Foot is a skill which increases speed for a user.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
    #24
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  5. Grunwave

    Grunwave Veteran Veteran

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    I created another discussion regarding your issues: https://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?threads/what-is-art.105976/

    If you have any other concerns regarding your sub-topic, please, either comment in this new topic or create another topic regarding the discourse you have attempted to impose here.


    -GEA
     
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  6. Wavelength

    Wavelength Pre-Merge Boot Veteran

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    No one is derailing your topic. I gave you several suggestions for types of skills that a Rogue might use; I just also thought it would be helpful to save you from a potential mistake, by pointing out that 25 usable skills in a single kit is usually too much, because not only does it bloat the player's choices to dizzying levels, but it also risks turning characters into too much of a "generalist".

    For example, let's say you took my suggestions and created 12 different skills around Entering Stealth, Preparations, and Conditional High-Damage Finishers. You could give the Rogue a 13th "Flash of Blades" skill that deals some damage to an enemy and increases the Rogue's DEF by 50% for a turn, and yeah, thematically that would make sense; you could theoretically envision a Rogue doing that. It's an idea. But it's not a good idea in the context of a careful, wait-for-the-perfect-moment playstyle. You could have a 14th skill "Dark Refuge" that heals all the Rogue's allies. Again, thematically it could make sense. But again, it would be a bad thing to add to the Rogue's kit. Your healer should be the one healing allies, and that healer shouldn't be able to dish out huge DPS bursts or go into Stealth.

    Long story short - in addition to the suggestions I was giving you, I was just warning you that 25 "unique skills" that sound cool on their own may end up making for a very muddy kit. Very few coherent JRPG kits have 25 unique skills. It would be like having a hand of 25 cards at every given time playing a CCG. Just be careful.

    And I don't care about "What is Art". I agree with you that video games are art (like movies, music, poems, and portraits are art). Movies have established practices for good camera work - cinematography. Music has established practices for composition - creating sounds that are pleasing to the ear. And video games have established practices for creating satisfying mechanics - kit design. A good designer can always break the rules as long as it's intentional and serves an important purpose, but if you don't have a good reason and you find yourself falling back on the excuse of "it's art, you can't critique it", then you should probably just take the critique to avoid creating something that people won't enjoy.
     
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  7. Grunwave

    Grunwave Veteran Veteran

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    What are you "critiquing?"

    This post is not asking for a critic. I am solely asking for recommendations for rogue skills.

    Move along, this is not the thread you are looking for you.
     
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  8. Wavelength

    Wavelength Pre-Merge Boot Veteran

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    Your ideas on kit design.

    Your rude tone is not appreciated.
     
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  9. Grunwave

    Grunwave Veteran Veteran

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    Getting back to topic would be much obliged.
     
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  10. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Grunwave Wavelength has not gone off topic. This entire section of the forum is about design, as the title of it makes clear. Design is more than just "here's an idea", "here's another one". Design needs to take into account a wide range of factors, including how an idea fits into an overall context.

    Furthermore, no thread in this section is anyone's particular 'property'. Threads here can, and often do, use a particular example as a jumping off point or to illustrate a particular point. However, discussion cannot be restricted to one specific person's requirements. If you judge that a particular response does not apply to your game, fine. Ignore it. But you have no right to tell anyone that they should not post here. Only Mods may do so. In addition you should keep the tone civil.
     
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  11. Grunwave

    Grunwave Veteran Veteran

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    Well, I am just a guy who likes Star Wars and wants to know if you have any Rogue Skills in mind that have not been listed.

    I am specifically disinterested in reading about arbitrary numbers. If anyone can provide anecdotal support or mathematical matrices regarding their number opinions, I would be interested to read same.

    Thank you in advance.

    GEA
     
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  12. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Grunwave You might be uninterested in reading about numbers, but as I have already said, this thread is not only for you. Many (most?) developers would take into account how many skills are involved. This is demonstrated by the number of times people are advised against having too many skills in threads in this section of the forum. Therefore mentioning this component of good design is justified.
     
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  13. Grunwave

    Grunwave Veteran Veteran

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    Oh, I like numbers.

    Jeez, I might even love numbers. I do not like ARBITRARY numbers that are not supported by evidence. As I just mentioned: "I am specifically disinterested in reading about arbitrary numbers. If anyone can provide anecdotal support or mathematical matrices regarding their number opinions, I would be interested to read same."

    Its like if I said 69 is the perfect number, but then I offered no support of same. How does me saying 69 is the best number ever help this conversation? The fact is, it does not. It is merely an arbitrary opinion supported by no evidence.
     
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  14. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Hence my confusion. "Disinterested" (which you have now used twice) means impartial. "Uninterested" means lacking in interest, which I think is what you actually mean.
    You are not obliged to respond to a point which is not applicable to you, so it might be as well to let it drop, as it is at risk of derailing the topic.
     
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  15. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    The thing is, any skills you pick need to have a place. When you put an arbitrary number and say I must have x skills, you are probably going to have a few filler skills that are there just to reach that number. And that is the concern being expressed here.

    For instance: In my game I broke up my skills into levels 1 - 8, then decided that classes had x number of skills per level, and it went 5/5/4/4/3/3/2/1 skills per level in the end. To avoid filler skills though what I did was give them a few skills that were other skills from other classes, but maybe a weaker version or a class specific version. So I have some overlap in my skills in the end, which I find acceptable as in my game you can only have 4 in battle and I have 11 characters in the end, so you might want someone with a weaker version of another's class skill.

    As for actual skills, here is what some of my thief class skills were. You'll have to name them yourself though.
    -One that drained HP and gave it to the thief.
    -One that drained MP and gave it to the thief.
    -One that had a high chance to inflict poison on the target.
    -One that cured poison from a character.
    -One that let the thief attack many times in quick succession that turn.
    -One that raised critical hit damage done by the thief for the rest of the battle. I got 3 of those, and they all stack, so if you use all three it really adds up (I think it is 6x normal critical damage if you use all 3).
    -A skill that does damage equal to the HP the thief has lost. Think of Minus Strike from Bravely Default if you've played that game.
     
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  16. Grunwave

    Grunwave Veteran Veteran

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    Yessir. that is why I turned to the community. I could only come up with 12 Rogue skills that I thought were worthwhile, so I asked for help finding the other 13.

    I have 11 classes in my current project and each has 25 skills. I had some difficulty finding 25 viable skills for warrior as well, but people were kind enough to help me last year. The other 9 classes are already complete.

    Yeah, again 25 is the perfect number for my piece of art. Not an arbitrary number. I decided it upon various mathematical calculations. If anyone wishes to discuss that function or its determination, I would love to expound in a separate thread where it will not dilute the purpose of the OP here.

    I will say generally, it is my opinion that leveling without the addition of skills is merely scaling. Scaling is a poor way to reflect character development. I believe that skill function allows players more ownership of their characters, which in turn creates optimal interactivity.

    Imagine if at level 1 you had 10 ATT, 10 DEF, 100 HP. You love killing imps. Then at level 10, you have 100 ATT, 100 DEF, 1,000 HP BUT huge plot twist, you now get to kill dragons.

    Merely changing the skin of your enemies is not compelling enough. Just as scaling character attributes over time is not enough.


    Thank you for listing out some skills. Definitely in my iteration Thief is a subset of Rogue. I kind of view Rogues in a D&D light. From a non-immersive perspective, it is tickling to think of a Rogue stealing HP/MP for himself.



    Which dictionary are you using?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
    #36

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