RPG cliches your tired of.

[derge12]

What are some RPG cliches you are really tired of?

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

Cliches you like and don't like?

I was thinking about doing this topic and since I know ones that are specifically of "RPG(Maker) Cliches you don't like" existed for a bit so I decided to add some positivity by asking alongside it, which cliches you like as well? I am curious what cliches you all like and don't like.

forums.rpgmakerweb.com

Not sure if you saw this similar thread. Probably a lot of related responses there.

I don't think I pay enough attention to notice that many cliches.

 

[Eden019]

Your hometown/village is destroyed in the first 1-2 hours of the story. Surely it's also an easier major turning point in any RPG(s) at all.

 

[TheoAllen]

Party of teenagers doing an epic-scale quest such as saving the entire continent or the world.

 

[Finnuval]

If you're a boy, you're dad died
If you're a girl, mom died
If you're lucky, they both died

Regardless by the end of the game you have no family left anyway xD

 

[Iron_Brew]

Everyone is teens!

 

[Ami]

The Chosen One

 

[Kanori24]

War

 

[HexMozart88]

Everyone's a terrible person.

 

[Willibab]

Generic Dialogue. Rather have an empty town tbh.

It's fine if they give me hints to something or useful information but just ''It's a lovely day isn't it''? No-one cares random NPC nr 354!

 

[Ms Littlefish]

Ah yes, the forest, the one that looks like the strip of mature trees dividing the highway from an American sub division. Riveting.

 

[RCXGaming]

Why are starter monsters always cute or the same four templates every time? (Slime, goblin, bat, rat)

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

@RCXGaming Because Umberhulk, Tarrasque, Mindflayer, and Displacer Beasts were a wee bit too challenging.

 

[TheoAllen]

Ah yes, put dragons as your first encounter in your RPG then wolves and bats as the end-game encounters.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

It does seem a bit random when bees and rabbits are all, “Yeah…that guy? Screw that guy.” It’s one thing if the bee is literally like, a giga bee. But sometimes it’s just a legit bee.

 

[Sacrifyx]

Crystals? I've seen that complaint come up a few times. Gotta collect the crystals or destroy the crystals or protect the crystals or some such.

 

[BubblegumPatty]

uuh Bland and weak Princesses/Female healer characters.
oh oh, and Useless nobles in general. Why is it the random village kid's job to save the kingdom?

 

[kirbwarrior]

Well, by definition of a 'cliche' versus a 'trope', all of them

Cliches are when they are done badly

And to repeat my personal distastes;

To expand on my own thoughts;

• The worst cliches are the ones that are actively harmful by being continually repeated, which probably all fall under relationship cliches; Drop everything for love, you don't need dreams. You can 'fix' them, you don't need to look for someone who doesn't need to be 'fixed'. Attractiveness outweighs abusive behavior. You should keep your family in your life no matter what they do because family is inescapable forever. 'Boring' cliches will never be as bad as ones that actively make real people's lives worse by continually being fed to people as some weird, uncontrollable form of propaganda.
• The worst tropes I can think of are anything that is 'realism', especially at the cost of being interesting or enjoyable; Why have a world worth exploring when you could instead be throttled by realism? Why have characters be worth being around when instead you could have jaded, nihilistic 'realistic' characters? Who wants hope? These aren't just boring, they seem to actively try to be boring, or worse they want people to think reality can only even be terrible with no chance of change.

Note that there are certain types of tropes that are boring in specifically a way that will make me not want to play a game (instead of merely being a flaw); If the world is largely terrible people, then why do I want to save it? Fantasy racism, widespread religion, every single person being an ******* to everyone else including those they 'care' about. If I'm supposedly the hero and the conflict I'm going to solve to save the world isn't the conflict that's so widespread it's constantly shoved in my face, then I'm not the hero.

I really want to make that first one clear so I'm going to repeat it; The worst cliches are the ones that are actively harmful by being continually repeated. If the cliche being treated as a truth of the world would make someone's life worse, then that is a problem beyond 'bad writing'. No amount of bad or boring writing will ever outweigh people's lives being ruined.

It does seem a bit random when bees and rabbits are all, “Yeah…that guy? Screw that guy.” It’s one thing if the bee is literally like, a giga bee. But sometimes it’s just a legit bee.

In The 7th Saga, the very very first enemies are "random hobo" and "regular seagull". And the latter will kill you because this game hates the player. Or more charitably, its the game telling you that you should buy equipment and that you will be grinding.

Why are starter monsters always cute or the same four templates every time? (Slime, goblin, bat, rat)

Okay, so this isn't a trope I'm tired of, but a slime doesn't make sense as an easy to kill monster. Same for anything made of liquid, regular weapons just wouldn't do much against them. Final Fantasy might be the one series I know of that doesn't follow this, making things like Flans have extreme resistance to regular attacks and require not just magic but often one specific element to kill them.

Ah yes, put dragons as your first encounter in your RPG then wolves and bats as the end-game encounters.

Now I love the idea of wee overconfident dragons who fight everything they come across because most humans aren't strong enough to fight back but the heroes remembered to have armor, weapons, and training. Then late game you're fighting 'regular' twenty meter long wolves in the land of the giants.

Or maybe the protagonists are just regular kids with wild imaginations and regular wolves are frightening compared to the "dragons" (dragonflies) they are used to fighting.

---

Probably the one cliche I can think of that's always tiring is the one I can't see done well; Having a lifeless or soulless story. Not a badly-written one, just one where the characters, enemies, skills, world, plot, etc. are just things even the developer didn't care about. I'd far rather have a badly-written but fun story than a technically well-written but hollow story. Or even have just no story, it's not like Dragon Quest 1 has much more plot than Super Mario Bros.

 

[Tai_MT]

To start with, it isn't the "cliche" that's the problem. It's the "overused low-effort" usage of the cliches that is the problem.

Tropes exist for a reason. A good writer and game programmer will make the tropes interesting and unique and offer their own adherence or subversion to those tropes.

A bad one just makes those tropes really cringe. Or annoying. Or "overused".

I mean, compare something like "Hunger Games" to "Battle Royale" and you can instantly tell who the better author was. Or, compare "Batman" to "Iron Man" and you can see the two different spins on "hero can do whatever they want 'cause they got all the money in the world".

It isn't he cliche that's the problem, its how it's used and executed.

But, if you want a list of things I'm tired of seeing:

1. Unjustified angst. Why does every angsty teen have to be Sousuke from Naruto? Dude is literally a terrible person who should've been killed off as the first villain for having a very poor outlook on life, very bad life goals, and the inability to empathize with anyone. He's a literal psychopath/sociopath and not only did he survive to the end of the series, but he's now been emulated by every other low-effort writer on the planet who wants make an "Edgelord" character or a "dark and brooding guy". Dark and brooding is cool. Batman is cool. Sousuke is a crap character who should be a villain, but was hauled across the finish line by "hero" characters with IQ's that don't even chart double digits.

If you can't make your "Edgelord" compelling to a 35 year old beyond "sex appeal" (I know some people out there that just like the Edge Lords at 35 'cause they're so in love with dating the "bad boy" and ruining their lives... but this shouldn't be a writing goal to appeal to THAT audience... unless you're writing smut), then don't write one.

2. The "dainty pure of heart woman healer". Thanks for acknowlding that this type of person would be absolutely useless in any and every way possible... except they can heal people! Man, if they couldn't heal people, they'd just be worthless and usless to everything!

Is there seriously nobody willing to challenge this trope, or do anything interesting with it? The last time I saw anything "interesting" done with it was FFX where it's revealed that Yuna is only the "dainty and pure of heart woman healer" because she has resigned herself to die in order to save the world, and she wants to be as kind and accomodating to everyone as she can possibly be so that her last moments in the world are filled with joy and smiles. We learn that the Yuna we've been interacting with the entire time is just her "facade". It's the brave face she puts on for "the good of the world", rather than "what she actually wants".

Seriously, why can't we do anything with this trope like that? Or, I dunno... make the Healer a big burly muslce-head who is basically just a "personal trainer" or "gym rat" or something, and he got into living healthy because it's hard to watch people accept his healing, but die early anyway from things like heart attacks or whatever. Give him an existential crisis of "Yes, you can heal people, but those people are going to die in a few years anyway from living unhealthy lifestyles or being in dangerous lines of work". That could be fun and interesting.

Do something with this trope! I'm not looking for waifu! You can write compelling waifu without making them avatars of purity and lightness and also useless!

3. "This is not even my final form!". Look guys... the only reason to really engage in this... is that you want to "surprise" the player. It's so overdone that it's no longer a "surprised". Honestly, I'd be more surprised if a boss went, "This isn't even my final form!" and actually was legitimately permanently defeated without ever adopting another form.

I don't know how you'd innovate this trope off the top of my head, but there's probably a way to do it.

While we're at it, I'm adding "...but can you withstand my ultimate attack?!". Look guys, this is basically the "it's not even my final form!" version of a boss... without actually creating a new form. Why isn't your boss using all their most powerful stuff at the beginning of the fight?

I get that we like going, "well, you have to do escalation in storytelling". Yes and no. They're legit trying to kill you, why aren't they blowing every attack possible at the beginning to defeat you, rather than letting you land dozens of hits on them?

This is probably why I like "overpowered heroes" so much as a trope in anime. If a hero can wipe out the threat in a single wave of his hand... I'm more impressed that he does that, rather than beating around the bush for 900 freakin' episodes. I'm also very impressed when villains do it too. If a villain can casually wipe cities off the map, I'd like them to be doing that without using it as a threat... just... you know... do it 'cause they heard the hero was there.

There ARE actual stakes to be had when villains and heroes "don't hold back".

Imagine the villain is wiping out every single town he hears your heroes have been to. Well, now, you gotta keep a very low profile. Gotta be careful who knows who you are. Gotta be careful nobody talks about you to anyone. The citizenry might also view you as a threat since just showing up in town means they all die. THERE ARE STAKES HERE.

I ain't a fan of "let me take forever to use my best stuff, when I'm already almost dead".

Do you know when "The Ultimate Attack" is interesting? Kung Fu Panda. "That's the Wuxi Finger Hold!" "Oh, you know this hold? (mirroring the words his master told him, with the same smirk)" "You're bluffing, Shifu didn't teach you that!" "You're right. (enemy is visibly relieved, but remains in the hold) I figured it out. (insane levels of panic set in on the enemy) Skidoosh. (attack executes).

That's how you do an "ultimate attack". Or... let's say... the 5 Point Exploding Heart Technique from Kill Bill.

There's a way to do it that is awesome and a way to do it that is lame. Most people opt for "lame".

4. McGuffin Contrivances. I'm just going to use Lord of the Rings. "We need to haul this cursed ring to this very specific volcano in order to destroy it!". Why? Are you SERIOUS that it can't be ANY OTHER volcano? I'd head in a direction AWAY from enemy threats, toward a different volcano that isn't guarded. But, you know, THAT'S ME. Likewise, why couldn't the heat from the Balrog melt the dang thing? What if you grafted other nonsense onto the ring, does its power change or alter? What if you casted it into a block of gold so nobody could wear it? Is there also a reason we can't dump it into the deepest part of the ocean where the pressure alone would crumple it like tissue paper? If it has a protection spell on it, is there a reason we can't dispel magic in a setting that clearly allows people to dispel magic?

I just don't like when the McGuffin is full of contrivances and nonsense. If you have a McGuffin, I'd like it to have very clearly defined rules so that I can't start poking plot holes in everything. If you can't manage that... just don't have a McGuffin.

5. Nobody in the world is doing anything to stop whatever the conflict is... except our intrepid heroes.

I don't know why this annoys me, but it does. I sort of like when other people are attempting to solve the problem as well as me. It breathes life into the world. Makes me feel like the NPC's have their own goals and reasons for existing. Other than, just, you know... information dumps for our band of 6 heroes.
---
Anyway, that's my short list.... I've got a bunch more, but most of my annoyances with "tropes" typically just comes down to "people are just really bad writers" and isn't an actual problem with the trope itself.

 

[RCXGaming]

Well, by definition of a 'cliche' versus a 'trope', all of them

I really want to make that first one clear so I'm going to repeat it; The worst cliches are the ones that are actively harmful by being continually repeated. If the cliche being treated as a truth of the world would make someone's life worse, then that is a problem beyond 'bad writing'. No amount of bad or boring writing will ever outweigh people's lives being ruined.

Preach. This is why people need to be aware of what kind of content they're putting into their story.

Okay, so this isn't a trope I'm tired of, but a slime doesn't make sense as an easy to kill monster. Same for anything made of liquid, regular weapons just wouldn't do much against them. Final Fantasy might be the one series I know of that doesn't follow this, making things like Flans have extreme resistance to regular attacks and require not just magic but often one specific element to kill them.

There was a thread on slimes a while back where I listed in painstaking detail the various ways slimes would be super lethal compared to most typical monster types. I'm more annoyed that it's always the same four types, especially in RPG Maker. Like I'm more impressed when you fight literally anything else.

Now I love the idea of wee overconfident dragons who fight everything they come across because most humans aren't strong enough to fight back but the heroes remembered to have armor, weapons, and training. Then late game you're fighting 'regular' twenty meter long wolves in the land of the giants.

Or maybe the protagonists are just regular kids with wild imaginations and regular wolves are frightening compared to the "dragons" (dragonflies) they are used to fighting.

I know theo was joking but I'd unironically love a game where you fight dragons as starter enemies and have wolves and bats as end-game enemies because... well, someone creative enough would know how to justify why they're threatening both in a gameplay and story sense.

Demon wolves with three heads that each have an element attached to their head, etc.

The "kid's imagination" angle would be very cute in a real story.

To start with, it isn't the "cliche" that's the problem. It's the "overused low-effort" usage of the cliches that is the problem.

This is more my grievance than anything else.

1. Unjustified angst. Why does every angsty teen have to be Sousuke from Naruto? Dude is literally a terrible person who should've been killed off as the first villain for having a very poor outlook on life, very bad life goals, and the inability to empathize with anyone. He's a literal psychopath/sociopath and not only did he survive to the end of the series, but he's now been emulated by every other low-effort writer on the planet who wants make an "Edgelord" character or a "dark and brooding guy". Dark and brooding is cool. Batman is cool. Sousuke is a crap character who should be a villain, but was hauled across the finish line by "hero" characters with IQ's that don't even chart double digits.

If you can't make your "Edgelord" compelling to a 35 year old beyond "sex appeal" (I know some people out there that just like the Edge Lords at 35 'cause they're so in love with dating the "bad boy" and ruining their lives... but this shouldn't be a writing goal to appeal to THAT audience... unless you're writing smut), then don't write one.

Glad to know I'm not the only person that thinks this.

2. The "dainty pure of heart woman healer". Thanks for acknowlding that this type of person would be absolutely useless in any and every way possible... except they can heal people! Man, if they couldn't heal people, they'd just be worthless and usless to everything!

Is there seriously nobody willing to challenge this trope, or do anything interesting with it? The last time I saw anything "interesting" done with it was FFX where it's revealed that Yuna is only the "dainty and pure of heart woman healer" because she has resigned herself to die in order to save the world, and she wants to be as kind and accomodating to everyone as she can possibly be so that her last moments in the world are filled with joy and smiles. We learn that the Yuna we've been interacting with the entire time is just her "facade". It's the brave face she puts on for "the good of the world", rather than "what she actually wants".

Seriously, why can't we do anything with this trope like that? Or, I dunno... make the Healer a big burly muslce-head who is basically just a "personal trainer" or "gym rat" or something, and he got into living healthy because it's hard to watch people accept his healing, but die early anyway from things like heart attacks or whatever. Give him an existential crisis of "Yes, you can heal people, but those people are going to die in a few years anyway from living unhealthy lifestyles or being in dangerous lines of work". That could be fun and interesting.

Do something with this trope! I'm not looking for waifu! You can write compelling waifu without making them avatars of purity and lightness and also useless!

Have you been looking through my notes? Because I have plans for an abrasive muscle-ly healer lady who uses her powers to buff herself up. Can punch hard enough to shatter boulders in one hit and generally has a pessimistic view of the world but does her job anyway.

Either way, this one like @BubblegumPatty mentioned is another one of my pet peeves because if played straight it's extremely boring. The gym rat angle is really funny though, I might just ape that.

3. "This is not even my final form!". Look guys... the only reason to really engage in this... is that you want to "surprise" the player. It's so overdone that it's no longer a "surprised". Honestly, I'd be more surprised if a boss went, "This isn't even my final form!" and actually was legitimately permanently defeated without ever adopting another form.

I don't know how you'd innovate this trope off the top of my head, but there's probably a way to do it.

While we're at it, I'm adding "...but can you withstand my ultimate attack?!". Look guys, this is basically the "it's not even my final form!" version of a boss... without actually creating a new form. Why isn't your boss using all their most powerful stuff at the beginning of the fight?

I get that we like going, "well, you have to do escalation in storytelling". Yes and no. They're legit trying to kill you, why aren't they blowing every attack possible at the beginning to defeat you, rather than letting you land dozens of hits on them?

This is probably why I like "overpowered heroes" so much as a trope in anime. If a hero can wipe out the threat in a single wave of his hand... I'm more impressed that he does that, rather than beating around the bush for 900 freakin' episodes. I'm also very impressed when villains do it too. If a villain can casually wipe cities off the map, I'd like them to be doing that without using it as a threat... just... you know... do it 'cause they heard the hero was there.

There ARE actual stakes to be had when villains and heroes "don't hold back".

Imagine the villain is wiping out every single town he hears your heroes have been to. Well, now, you gotta keep a very low profile. Gotta be careful who knows who you are. Gotta be careful nobody talks about you to anyone. The citizenry might also view you as a threat since just showing up in town means they all die. THERE ARE STAKES HERE.

I ain't a fan of "let me take forever to use my best stuff, when I'm already almost dead".

Do you know when "The Ultimate Attack" is interesting? Kung Fu Panda. "That's the Wuxi Finger Hold!" "Oh, you know this hold? (mirroring the words his master told him, with the same smirk)" "You're bluffing, Shifu didn't teach you that!" "You're right. (enemy is visibly relieved, but remains in the hold) I figured it out. (insane levels of panic set in on the enemy) Skidoosh. (attack executes).

That's how you do an "ultimate attack". Or... let's say... the 5 Point Exploding Heart Technique from Kill Bill.

There's a way to do it that is awesome and a way to do it that is lame. Most people opt for "lame".

Honestly, the best way to establish stakes is to not fool around with your audience. I've become more appreciative of villains that are functioning forces until they come across the hero, where breaking out into a fight with them has the potential to just end them right then and there.

I'd be very impressed if fooling around too much in a part of the game winds up with the town you visit getting obliterated off the face of a map by the bad guys. It'd certainly add more weight to them as villains, as well as why you should be careful playing the game so it doesn't happen.

5. Nobody in the world is doing anything to stop whatever the conflict is... except our intrepid heroes.

I don't know why this annoys me, but it does. I sort of like when other people are attempting to solve the problem as well as me. It breathes life into the world. Makes me feel like the NPC's have their own goals and reasons for existing. Other than, just, you know... information dumps for our band of 6 heroes.

This, 100%. There's a few too many stories where the conflict is resolved because the heroes do all of the work while everyone just watches them do it.

A few ways to improve this, for y'all reading the thread:

• Have the protagonist's opportunities spring from helping people. You can do this in many ways, ranging from the person you helped being someone who was otherwise superior to you in experience/strength or the people you helped having connections you otherwise wouldn't have.
• Have a set of recurring important NPCs that outright win battles in place of the player, or have a large group of nameless NPCs take down a threat that sucker-punched you in the back
• Outright play from perspectives that aren't the main hero
• Show NPCs doing their job to make the world a better place, and what might happen if they are not there to do their job
• Have the player serve as bait the villains while their support is doing the real work elsewhere, to bypass an element that would be impossible for you to solve alone

I made the core themes of my game revolve around teamwork, so this applies even to the playable characters. You need people to pick up your slack, cause nobody can do it alone.