RPG cliches your tired of.

[HexMozart88]

The only dainty character in my game is the protagonist and that's because he's literally starving to death.

Oh, one that I hate: Stupid characters. The boobs are bigger than the brains.

 

[TheOFCMedia]

• Super Long Cutscenes
• Characters that the creator is trying to force to be relevant
• Expecting the player to know information from previous games in the series
• Glorifying occult rituals

 

[Tai_MT]

@RCXGaming Free free to ape it if you want. I'd be delighted to see someone take it and just have a lot of fun with it.

Do whatever you like with your muscle-head gym rat Healer... just don't make him boring!

The Healer type I'm currently playing with is:

She's a merchant. She's like a 17 year old world weary gal who sells her healing for food and lodging and other "essentials (and some non-essentials)". She's seen too much of the world, knows too much about it, doesn't put much faith into humanity, is excellent as manipulating people, and is generally just very cynical about absolutely everything. Think "Wynne" from Dragon Age Origins except she's not 9000 years old, isn't a nag, doesn't sugarcoat who she is or what any other situation is, and doesn't really care what anyone is doing unless it affects her PERSONALLY in some way.

That's my take on the "Healer". I sort of love playing with the trope. It's kind of fun.

But, to be fair, I'm also playing on the "Greedy Thief" trope as well. He LOVES to steal anything and everything. Nailed down or not. But only if it's valuable to SOMEONE ELSE. None of what he steals is personally valuable to him. But, you tell him there's something that can never be stolen, or something that is insanely valuable to a lot of people? He wants it. He wants to steal the VALUE of something, and not the thing itself.

Character tropes are honestly just a lot of fun to turn on their heads, or play around with, or put oddball spins on them.

I mean, what happens if you decide that your "Warrior" is just REALLY into juggling and all he ever wanted to be in life was a Juggler? Or a street performer? Or a clown at a circus? But, he's just so good at swordplay and leading an army that it's just... you know... his job now? Can you imagine what sort of interesting things you could do with that? Like... is there a Sword and Board Warrior who juggles knives and throws them while wearing squeaky shoes? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but it does sound like he might have some fun personality quirks to write for.

Also, I like the idea of your Healer. She sounds like she'd be pretty fun.

Then again, I'm pretty biased. I did romance Cassandra in Dragon Age Inquisition... and Ashley in Mass Effect... Yeah, I'm a sucker for the "Amazon" type women. Plus... Ashley was really into poetry and I liked that... and Cassandra was really into reading romance novels with powerful female characters, and I found that adorable and endearing.

Maybe your Healer is another character I'll fawn over? Ha ha.

 

[kirbwarrior]

Have you been looking through my notes? Because I have plans for an abrasive muscle-ly healer lady who uses her powers to buff herself up. Can punch hard enough to shatter boulders in one hit and generally has a pessimistic view of the world but does her job anyway.

Ah, so she's a healer in an MMO

The "dainty pure of heart woman healer"

Lunar does the healer archetype differently. IIRC all the 'healers' are pretty brash but try to pretend to be 'pure and 'dainty'.

Have the player serve as bait the villains while their support is doing the real work elsewhere, to bypass an element that would be impossible for you to solve alone

This one applies to a game design note I heard a while back; The player does the "cool" things. The real work the NPCs are doing might be boring, repetitive, or even outright torturous to sit through (raise your hand if you want to play a game of 'transcribe a forgotten language' for seventy hours straight). The PCs are playing bait, keeping the villain's attention and fighting scary but awesome fights.

Do you know when "The Ultimate Attack" is interesting? Kung Fu Panda. "That's the Wuxi Finger Hold!" "Oh, you know this hold? (mirroring the words his master told him, with the same smirk)" "You're bluffing, Shifu didn't teach you that!" "You're right. (enemy is visibly relieved, but remains in the hold) I figured it out. (insane levels of panic set in on the enemy) Skidoosh. (attack executes).

That's how you do an "ultimate attack". Or... let's say... the 5 Point Exploding Heart Technique from Kill Bill.

I'd like to point out that both of these are examples of the protagonist pulling out The Ultimate Attack, not the major villain. I'm not sure if that's relevant, but who knows, maybe it's just better done when it's the "hero" doing it?

---

You know what trope I've gotten a little sick of? Villains who feel justified in what they are doing because of close-minded belief instead of trying to accomplish something by checking to see if their thought process pans out and if the end result makes sense. A villain that screams "freedom is bad, that's where evil comes from!" is boring, a villain that sits down and explains the legitimate problems with things like 'democracy' and 'punishing those who break the rules instead of just not letting them break the rules in the first place' is intriguing. I call this a 'trope' and not 'cliche' because it can be written well, it can make compelling villains, but even done well I just don't care anymore.

 

[KawaiiKid]

I'm gonna assume you mean rpgs in general since you didn't specify rpg maker - so this is with all rpgs.

1.) Stop making games so easy. Games that are so easy that you can walk through them without having a care in the world even on hard difficulties are so boring.

2.) Stop level scaling. Seriously, there isn't a single game where I ever though level scaling made the game better. In almost every instance it makes it worse.

3.) Not everyone needs to be 17. I get why Japan does it - because your high school years are really the last years of "freedom" for Japanese people because of how their work works, so most anime and video games takes place in this age range. Not every game needs this. I was almost brain dead at 17, how can I expect a 17 year old to realistically have the experience to conquer the challenges in the game?

4.) Stop making consumables. Nobody uses them unless they are core to the game such as potions and flasks in the witcher. Otherwise everyone just saves them for when "they really need them" and then finishes the game with 47 elixirs. Not only that, but if you have them, you have to balance around the fact that the player has them and can use them (but they won't).

5.) Stop. Making. Crafting. No, your game doesn't need crafting. Every game in existence doesn't need crafting. Just stop.

6.) Chill with the crowd control. It's not fun to constantly lose control of your character.

7.) Stop with low lasting buffs. If you're going to make classes that use buffs, at least let them last for several minutes if you are balancing around them. Having to constantly rebuff is annoying.

8.) Stop throwing in forced humor if you aren't funny.

 

[nbgamemaker]

"i did it i beat the bad g......"
"actually no there was a secret even eviler bad guy you also need to beat"

 

[Tai_MT]

Lunar does the healer archetype differently. IIRC all the 'healers' are pretty brash but try to pretend to be 'pure and 'dainty'.

Pretending sounds interesting. I've seen villain healers with that personality trait. Never seen it in a hero party. Might be fun.

I'd like to point out that both of these are examples of the protagonist pulling out The Ultimate Attack, not the major villain. I'm not sure if that's relevant, but who knows, maybe it's just better done when it's the "hero" doing it?

To be fair, the ones where the hero does it in my example, the story has been set up in such a way to make us sympathize with the protagonist. "The Bride" in Kill Bill isn't really a hero. She's actually a villain. But, she's our point of view character and our protagonist who just wants something simple "revenge for killing my husband, putting me in a coma, and killing my child".

For the villain to pull off the "Ultimate Attack", you need to have some investment in the villain to start with and most media just... doesn't give you that investment in the villain.

That might be why I enjoyed the anime "Food Wars" to a large degree. Our hero LOSES a decent chunk of the time. His "opponents" or even the "villains" of some of the arcs actually TEACH HIM something. I find that to be pretty compelling.

Or, if we're going to video games only...

Final Fantasy XIV.

Yes, it's an MMO. But, it is one of the most compelling and emotional stories I've experienced in a very long time... and the only one I've ever cared about in an MMO before.

Our villain... Zenos... Oh, how I absolutely ADORE Zenos.

He has several "this is my ultimate attack!" moments, and they all hit like a freight train. But, he's different in the way he uses them.

Everything is just beneath him. All the time. It's all boring. There isn't a fight for him to have that's worth having. Then, he meets you. The Warrior of Light. Someone who can hold their own against him. Someone with power on par with his own. Yep, even if you keep having to bring in 7 other people to stomp him into the ground.

But, then there's his ending. Which, I loved. It made me smile and made me cry.

He tells the player, "I take it, this is your prey? But, why does it still live? Surely, it's no match for you.". Coupled with his line before the final fight with him: "Against you, I need bring my all to bear."

He acknowledges that he needs to throw absolutely everything at you. EVERYTHING. He's been "playing around" up until now. But, that's because that's his motivation. Battle is boring, it's all won so easily. Except with you.

So, this is his "Ultimate Attack". Over and over again. As much as he can throw at you. Everything and ten kitchen sinks.

His final fight against you is an acknowledgement of your power. You're fighting him one on one. No more bringing in 7 other people to fight him as a Boss. You have to solo him.

And when he goes down, he just does one thing for you. He commands you to live. He acknowledges your might, calls you friend, and demands you live.

His ultimate attacks are pure acknowledgement of those things about you, as the player. About you, the character. About the Warrior of Light.

It's wonderful in its execution. And yes, by the end, I called him "friend" too. I weathered him throwing every fiber of his being and every ounce of his energy at me, and maybe a bit more, and I called him friend. Behind my screen, I thanked him for the wonderful time and wished we could do it again sometime, even though we never could.

He gave me everything, because I was worth it to him. My Warrior of Light was worth everything to him.

Is there a better way to have your villain break out "The Ultimate Attack" on you all the time? I don't know. But, I do love how it was executed here.

---

You know what trope I've gotten a little sick of? Villains who feel justified in what they are doing because of close-minded belief instead of trying to accomplish something by checking to see if their thought process pans out and if the end result makes sense. A villain that screams "freedom is bad, that's where evil comes from!" is boring, a villain that sits down and explains the legitimate problems with things like 'democracy' and 'punishing those who break the rules instead of just not letting them break the rules in the first place' is intriguing. I call this a 'trope' and not 'cliche' because it can be written well, it can make compelling villains, but even done well I just don't care anymore.

One of the unintentionally hilarous things about the movie "2012". Our "villain" was actually reasonable, intelligent, and I found him to be likable. By the end of the movie, I held massive disdain for our heroes and their naive and stupid way of thinking and was cheering our titular villain who said "the ends justify the means" over and over again.

I'd wager that it's pretty hard to write "heroic" protagonists when the villain actually makes sense and points out all the truly terribly crap you and your society are doing.

 

[kirbwarrior]

6.) Chill with the crowd control. It's not fun to constantly lose control of your character.

What is "crowd control"? I've only ever heard this term in regards to streamers. Is this a thing rpgs have?

To be fair, the ones where the hero does it in my example, the story has been set up in such a way to make us sympathize with the protagonist. "The Bride" in Kill Bill isn't really a hero. She's actually a villain. But, she's our point of view character and our protagonist who just wants something simple "revenge for killing my husband, putting me in a coma, and killing my child".

I fully admit I haven't seen that movie in a long time and all I remembered was that she is the protagonist and she got the short end of the stick in a bad way. That, and I still accidentally conflate hero and protagonist (albeit rarely).

I'd wager that it's pretty hard to write "heroic" protagonists when the villain actually makes sense and points out all the truly terribly crap you and your society are doing.

I agree. There's a pretty fine line between "the villain makes solid points but is still in the wrong or doing things wrong" and "the villain is right and you are in the wrong for fighting them". Not an rpg, but there's something I like about Black Panther (even if it definitely wasn't perfect). The villain was calling out the protagonist and his society, which in turn caused the protagonist to rise up and try to do the right thing. He even knew deep down something was wrong, but he needed someone from the outside to truly bring it to his conscious mind.

While we're at it, I'm adding "...but can you withstand my ultimate attack?!"

Again thinking about mechanics setting things up, Limit Breaks in Final Fantasy and other similar effects in games could just be given to the final boss. If it's established there are absurdly powerful things you can do only after 'enemies' beat down on you to an inch of your life, then the villain having something similar and even more powerful is no longer a 'surprise' but more of a 'dread' for the player. You might be staring at that limit gauge the whole battle trying your best to either never fill it up or be ready for when it is full.

Actually, just saying that, I remember the point @RCXGaming said of just don't fool your audience. Having a "final form" or "ultimate attack" as a surprise is at best novel and at worst overused and unnecessary. But if it's something the game tells you about, tells you to worry about, and maybe even sets you up to stop or be ready for it, then it can be this cool thing to look forward to.

On that note, I feel like FFT both does it well AND badly.

Spoiler: How it does it well

The final boss only even has a form to fight you with because of a lust for power and the primary antagonist helping them get a body at all which is blatantly told to the player, probably too much. It changes form because "hey there's a chance I might not live through this" and absorbs more power. Then does it again, but can't handle all this power and dies in a huge explosion that (maybe) kills the party, giving you a very Pyrrhic victory.

As for how it does it badly, well, the CTB system was definitely not well playtested and the bosses that change forms accidentally give you one or more turns to have your whole party just smash their faces in. It's entirely possible to kill the second form before it even gets a turn despite it having the highest amount of HP of any enemy in the game. It makes me think of watching DBZ characters power up and someone thought "Wait, I can punch you while you do that." XD

One of the unintentionally hilarous things about the movie "2012". Our "villain" was actually reasonable, intelligent, and I found him to be likable. By the end of the movie, I held massive disdain for our heroes and their naive and stupid way of thinking and was cheering our titular villain who said "the ends justify the means" over and over again.

I have a weird love for stories where the villain is entirely right and the protagonists are wrong. I wouldn't even call any story like that "good" but I'll definitely enjoy it. I might have to watch this movie.

Oh, one that I hate: Stupid characters. The boobs are bigger than the brains.

I'm entirely okay with stupid characters. They have their place and can be used well. Same goes for boobs bigger than brains. What doesn't really work is when they are 'dumb' because there isn't even a character in there or basically an (intentionally) underdeveloped character. Turns out the trope "Born Sexy Yesterday" is, uh... wow I want to find a way to use that trope in a good way. I think I have an idea but I'll have to stew on it more.

Some (adult) RPG Maker game I played recently I thought did this very well where they took the trope of "headstrong and a little dim" protagonist and actually explored the consequences of her being dumb and having to learn from her mistakes (Actually, that game has a few very common tropes and did them pretty well, especially by combining seemingly contradictory ones).

 

[KawaiiKid]

What is "crowd control"? I've only ever heard this term in regards to streamers. Is this a thing rpgs have?

Anything that takes the ability to play your character away. Roots, stuns, silences, snares, sleeps, charms, confuse, etc.

The term was coined in mmorpgs back in the late 90's early 2000s when if you pulled more than 1 enemy they were so strong you'd need to "crowd control" the other enemy so your group could fight them 1 at a time. Since then it's evolved to mean any effect which makes you lose control of your character.

 

[Eden019]

Why are starter monsters always cute or the same four templates every time? (Slime, goblin, bat, rat)

I'm putting spiders & bats in the final dungeon on my game.
I'd say Bandit is always the weakest human enemies. =)

 

[ZombieKidzRule]

The giant breasts thing is a huge pet peeve of mine. You could make my ultimate game in every aspect and if you make front facing, giaganta boob characters, I am most likely going to skip it. That sort of thing didn’t even interest me when I was a teen so I’m not sure how that became the go to attraction for “adult” interested players.

And to me it seems like the problem with healers started when they moved from clerics and priests who could heal and fight to a class that focuses solely on healing, as inferred from the class name. From my earliest experiences, clerics always had a combination of spells. They could heal, protect, and harm in the name of their deity.

As a player, I have very little interest in the one trick pony classes. For me, every class needs to be balanced and rounded so the person could reasonably survive on their own. I don’t buy in to the support classes concept. I think a player should be able to pick any class and still be able to develop a competent, effective, useful character.

WhIch brings me to a final thought about games where you have to have a certain party composition to succeed. Is it really reasonable that there is a world where a group of mages, or thieves, or warriors, or whatever can’t succeed? A class that can heal really can’t be replaced with potions, scrolls, or magic items? A magic class can’t be replaced with potions, powders, scrolls, or magic items?

There is no standard restriction that dictates that only magic users can use scrolls or magic items. Some of my favorite games were designed to use such things to provide alternative options for those players who didn’t want to be restricted to a specific party composition. You don’t have to take a mage to still have some access to spells. It won’t be as good, but it will be sufficient.

But those are just my opinions and preferences as a player, which ultimately influences my own game design choices.

 

[Tai_MT]

Got a new one:

The Mystery Box

Look, I get why this exists. I REALLY do. In the hands of a competent writer, "The Mystery Box" is fantastic.

The problem is that so many "hack writers" use it in lieu of a story of any kind and it just leads to "the video game player needs to make up the story in their own head".

I played "The Witness". I enjoyed a good portion of that game. However, it's so... arbitrary and weird by the end that it just invites the player to "make up their own story about what is going on". I also played "Inside". Same issue. You can infer SOME things about the game, but that's all that there is. Inferring. You can never truly be 100% sure that what you think has happened... is what happened.

For me, who enjoys doing a lot of writing, I genuinely hate this. You are telling me, as the game player, to make up my own story instead of play your game and be happy with the story YOU gave me.

There's a difference between "environmental storytelling" and "nothing is concrete what-so-ever". I love the Environmental Storytelling in the Metroid series. But, I hate the "nothing is concrete" of the Dark Souls storylines.

So, I generally hate when devs engage in "Mystery Box" nonsense. The longevity of the "Mystery Box" is finite. If you want an example of how to do it well, just watch X-Files. If you want an example of how to do it poorly, you watch Lost.

X-Files periodically SOLVES part of the mystery and then either gives you a brand new mystery or instead the original mystery was solved in such a way that it invites NEW questions about the mystery that make sense in hindsight, but provoke renewed interest.

Lost, on the other hand, almost never solves anything, gets convoluted and nonsensical to the point that you can't just watch an episode and understand what's going on (meaning you have to watch everything as a consequence of this convoluted BS), and the mystery that's meant to be "solved by the end" is still debated on what it actually means by parts of the fanbase. It's a mess.

There's a shelf-life for Mysteries.

No, you don't ever have to explain why your magic works within the rules it does. That's a "mystery of the universe" where people can just accept that nobody knows how it works and they lack the ability to find out.

But, if your entire storyline revolves around "why does magic work the way it is?", then you need to be solving some of that mystery and actively trying to solve the problem. Not letting your audience guess as to what's going on.

I leave your product knowing as much about it as before I picked it up... you've done a very bad job.

 

[Bernkastelwitch]

To start with, it isn't the "cliche" that's the problem. It's the "overused low-effort" usage of the cliches that is the problem.

This is how I view it too. Its not the existence of the cliche thats the problem, it's whether you put effort to put an interesting twist an otherwise cliche idea. That Edgelord, angsty, brooding character? Write /why/ he is like that and how he became it. And do more beyond "I am cool and brooding".

That Female, pure healer of the group? Do more than just Love interest/pure girl/healer. Maybe make her snarky jerk or give her more of a personality beyond the "Token girl medic".

The best kind of writing is someone who can see a cliche or trope and put a refreshing spin on it. Some people may hate the mere existence of it yes but it's a lot better than avoiding cliches entirely, which is impossible to do. So at the very least put a nice spin on it instead of following it to a T.

 

[kirbwarrior]

Anything that takes the ability to play your character away. Roots, stuns, silences, snares, sleeps, charms, confuse, etc.

Ah, thank you. Yeah my* main approach to states at this point is "would this be fair to use on a boss?" and build them from there. "Stun" I'm generally okay with due to restriction on how it is used, but anything more is definitely something I avoid. If anything, taking a small amount of control away can be fun to work around (such as not being able to use items or not being able to use these two skills).

I don’t buy in to the support classes concept.

I would like to say that "support" classes are far wider in what they can do than "healer" classes. Heck, in some classes they can't even heal and are doing other support effects for the party. Your example of old clerics fits well and White Mages in Final Fantasy (well, some of them) do have a mix of healing, protecting, buffing, and a small amount of damage spells that either punish certain monster types (FF1 had anti-undead spells) or just bring the power of god down on the enemy (the ever present Holy). In my recent project the support class can deal damage just as anyone else can, but the damage effects always have support side-effects instead of offensive ones; Their base attack deals damage and gives a def buff to the party member with the lowest def.

But yeah, one trick pony classes aren't just boring, they're almost always bad in their own game.

*How did I typo "but" instead of "my"?

 

[Mr-Kangaroo]

It does seem a bit random when bees and rabbits are all, “Yeah…that guy? Screw that guy.” It’s one thing if the bee is literally like, a giga bee. But sometimes it’s just a legit bee.

Lol I have butterfly "enemies" in the game. but they just use "Flutter" once, which does nothing, and then they run.

 

[Creedles]

Why are starter monsters always cute or the same four templates every time? (Slime, goblin, bat, rat)

What are some monsters you would wanna see instead?

 

[RCXGaming]

What are some monsters you would wanna see instead?

Literally anything else. It doesn't matter as long as its executed well. My original statement was more of an observation as to why it's always the same four types, which itself is based on the larger "why is it always medieval settings" condemnation.

I don't think you'll get much out of me telling you what I'd want to see, since... well, we might be of completely different minds of what to put in. It's your game, after all.

Context: I'm a modern day / futuristic eldritch horror kind of guy.

 

[TRIDIUM]

Agreed. If it isn't an abomination to nature, I don't want it.

 

[Willibab]

 

[Tai_MT]

Context: I'm a modern day / futuristic eldritch horror kind of guy.

What about swords and sorcery eldritch horrors beyond the universe and time, manipulating the world just to feed uninterrupted?