RPG cliches your tired of.

[TRIDIUM]

Okay, I'm willing to admit that I may be misinterpreting your statements.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but....

My point isn't about any religion IRL but what makes any religion a religion at its very core

The concept and the specific are connected, as is true with anything. The example of Canada and Government. Government the concept and idea is not Canada. But Canada is a government, correct? So if I said, "Government is the worst idea since sliced bread" that would include Canada. If someone replied, "Well, what about Canada?" and I said "Oh, but that's a specific government, that doesn't count" they would look at me like I'm crazy.
So, saying that religion the concept can't be portrayed as good in a game means that if I were to put anything that fell under the definition of "Religion" the concept, you're saying that can't be done.

But to be honest, this discussion is a bit pointless, because if I wanted to, I could boot up ol' RM VX Ace and make a short game where religion the idea and specific religions were portrayed in a good light.

(Mods, if I broke any rules, I'll totally understand if ya edit/delete this post)

 

[Ms Littlefish]

OK, but yeah…be very careful with this topic. I have my thoughts. As long as it pertains to game development and not real life it’s OK to talk about this. But, of course, that’s still tricky since many games draw commentary from the real world.

 

[TRIDIUM]

Thank you.
My main point was stated above earlier, I believe.
Sorry for the mini-rant!

 

[SpyroFan67]

Ok I admit this isn't a cliche I'm necessarily sick of but it has been used in almost every RPG game out there-"Here is an evil man-oh no, he's enslaved everyone under an oppressive dictatorship and all the heroes of the land have all been imprisoned or slain by him! You are our only hope! You must infiltrate his evil castle and battle him and defeat him, or the world is doomed!"

 

[kirbwarrior]

The concept and the specific are connected, as is true with anything. The example of Canada and Government. Government the concept and idea is not Canada. But Canada is a government, correct? So if I said, "Government is the worst idea since sliced bread" that would include Canada. If someone replied, "Well, what about Canada?" and I said "Oh, but that's a specific government, that doesn't count" they would look at me like I'm crazy.

You know what, maybe I misinterpreted the original statement;

Regardless of your opinions are of religion in the real world is

I wanted to specify that any point I was making was not because of any particular religion or how religion is used specifically in the real world. Any point I'd make about the issues of it in stories applies equally well to any fantastical religion. And to further clear things up, this doesn't mean anything with things we generally associate with religion; In Dragon Quest Builders, the Goddess is real and is using literal divine powers, it's a major plot point she is blatantly creating things that deeply affect people and they can see and touch. In Skyrim, you get tangible benefits from praying and wearing objects related to the "gods". I can put on an Amulet of Stendarr and see that my shield is doing better and notice the benefits in combat easily regardless of if my character believes in Stendarr or thinks the amulet is just handy in the same way wearing armor is handy. Those don't require faith because they are quantifiable and can be tested.

OK, but yeah…be very careful with this topic.

To really make my point, the fact that the forum rules stop discussion of religion should really say a lot about religion, regardless of which one it is. If attempted discussions about it seem to immediately stray away from discussion...

As long as it pertains to game development and not real life it’s OK to talk about this.

I'd actually love to continue the conversation of ways to use religion in video games, but even if we did that entirely in the realm of OK it's already getting off topic. If TRIDIUM wants to open a new topic about it, feel free to @ me there.

"Here is an evil man-oh no, he's enslaved everyone under an oppressive dictatorship and all the heroes of the land have all been imprisoned or slain by him! You are our only hope! You must infiltrate his evil castle and battle him and defeat him, or the world is doomed!"

This one I'm a bit conflicted on. I haven't seen it done especially well, but on the other hand it's such a solid base for a game; You're the protagonist because all the other protagonists are dead.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

To really make my point, the fact that the forum rules stop discussion of religion should really say a lot about religion, regardless of which one it is. If attempted discussions about it seem to immediately stray away from discussion...

Or…it just means that people have different view points on morality and we really don’t need to have debates about it here. People are very welcome to state if they are practitioners of a religion and the influence it has on their lives. We just don’t need y’all proselytizing about the one, true RPGeezus and trying to solve debates that literal theological scholars can’t agree on.

 

[TRIDIUM]

Agreed. I'll shut up now
EDIT
And uh, sorry for stirring up trouble.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

No worries, any of you really. I still think we’re in the realm on game development for the most part.

 

[kirbwarrior]

it just means that people have different view points on morality

I'm not sure how much overlap morality has with religion (I'm pretty sure you can have either without the other), but morality systems in games have always been hilariously bad in my experience. And I almost wonder if the world collectively decided the same thing because that craze seemed to be short-lived with a move towards how characters interpret and react to your actions instead of a blanket "karma" system (such as Fallout 3 letting you walk into a bar and shoot an unarmed man and be considered a good person for it).

 

[EVXA]

Lol, this seems fun to checklist these against my own game.

1.Hometown/village is destroyed.
^Nope, The castle/palace survived & already rebuilt after an invasion pregame.

2.Party of teenagers.
^Nope, Of the 6 Characters Aged, 30, 30, 28, 23, 18 & ??? Known.
^3.Dead Parents, Check (Died during the invasion & now you rule).

4.The Chosen One, Check (Chosen to be plotted again by bad guy.)

5War, Check, It's part of Act II but still counts.

6.Everyone's a terrible person, Karma exists so it might count but not really.

7.Generic Dialogue, Check (Not everything needs to be important).

8.Generic Forest, Nope, not much of a forest at all sadly it's to small.

9.Starter Monsters(Slime, goblin, bat, rat), Check (It's even a Sewer!)
^But these Slimes will kick your a$$ & the bats are just Flying Slimes.

10.Crystals, No(But you do need to go collect 4 orbs to save the world.)

11. weak Princesses/Female healer characters. & Useless nobles.
^Nope it's Two Ruling Court Lords doing chore tasks of their people.

12.The very very first enemies are "random X" and "regular X". And the latter will kill you because this game hates the player. Or more charitably, its the game telling you that you should buy equipment and that you will be grinding.
^Check, Everything other than a Rat is going to make you wish you stayed home.

13. Is not defeated this is not my Final Form... No Comment/Spoiler on this one.

14. No No No No.

• Super Long Cutscenes
• Characters that the creator is trying to force to be relevant
• Expecting the player to know information from previous games in the series
• Glorifying occult rituals

15.1.) Stop making games so easy, Or to Hard(Mine is optional difficulty %).
2.) It Has Level Scaling. (My DLC does add a form of it to balance the game.)
3.) Not everyone needs to be 17.
4.) Stop making consumables. (WHAT YES, YES DOES NEED TO BE THERE!)
5.) Stop making crafting. (IT'S 99% Optional, it just adds to the game.)
6.) Chill with the crowd control. (It's not that type of Game.)
7.) Stop with low lasting buffs. (NO EAT YOUR FOOD IF YOU WANT REGEN!)
8.) Stop throwing in forced humor if you aren't funny. (Humor is Subjective.)

16."i did it i beat the bad guy......" nope there is a sercet... (No Comment)

17. GIANT BOOBS... (But why are you looking at females in such a way.)
^I have a bit to many default assets, some do have a boobs get over it.

18.One trick pony character job/classes. (Battles are forced combat, mostly useful skills.)

19.-The Chosen One, (CHECK)
-Prophecies, (CHECK)
-The Hero's hometown/world being destroyed, (CHECK)
-Generic fantasy races (CHECK)
-Save the world plots (CHECK)
-Completely irredeemable people who get away without any punishment/don't get punished enough. (MAYBE)
-On that same note, Villains who are heavily idolized over how "Cool" or "Relatable" they are. News Flash: They are STILL EVIL! YOU WANNA BE EVIL LIKE THEM, MATE?! BECAUSE IT LOOKS THAT WAY! (?)
-Time Travel... (CHECK SURE WHY NOT)
-Hopeless Boss fights (CHECK GOT TO LOSE AT LEAST ONCE!)
-Bosses being immune to every single status (SOMETIMES)
-This is more of a system thing, but after you beat the main game (Defeat the Final Boss and get the end credits), the game pretends that you didn't and you remain stuck in Final Chapter Limbo... (ONLY UNTIL THE NEXT DLC IS FINISHED.)

20.-The party or hero starts as established well known powerful, seasoned veterans in the universe, yet they're level 1...
^ ACT I, LVL 1, if your not depowered then your boring.

Tally up the score... &, no no I'm sure my game is still good enough to play.

 

[Hungry Moogle]

It was used well in The Wizard of Oz as well. There are a bunch of stories where "it was all just a dream" was a pretty good.

I thought I should point out that the "it was all just a dream" ending to The Wizard of Oz is not in the original novel. In fact, the book that the film was based on, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, is just the first book in a much, much larger series of novels of which the original author, Frank L. Baum, wrote fourteen and countless others written by other authors.



The film's ending was actually the product of executive meddling by the higher-ups at MGM, as the prevailing idea at the time was that audiences weren't interested in stories that took place in made-up fantasy lands. Earlier versions of the script actually got rid of the magical elements of the story such as re-imagining the Scarecrow as a regular human who was so stupid that he could only get a job scaring away crows from cornfields.

 

[Tai_MT]

I never read the books. The Wizard of Oz never resonated with me that much. But, I remember the ending to the movie being a particularly good one as it recontextualized the entire adventure.

Sort of like the Disney Alice In Wonderland.

You could probably also look at the movie "Hook" for another "It was all a dream... or was it?!" ending. I really love Hook for how clever it actually turned out to be toward the end, which invites a second or third rewatch.

Some people might say "Inception" was a good "it was all a dream" movie, too.

 

[BubblegumPatty]

I think a big part of if "it was all a dream" Trope landing or not is if the dream had any impact whatsoever after it's over. If the dreamer moves on and the growth of their dream adventures doesn't follow them like a normal adventure's would, then it was completely meaningless. Similar issue happens with Time travel plots where they just abandon the Alternate or doomed timeline, and not acknowledge what they experience/what *could* have happened if they didn't change history etc etc.

 

[Tai_MT]

Similar issue happens with Time travel plots where they just abandon the Alternate or doomed timeline, and not acknowledge what they experience/what *could* have happened if they didn't change history etc etc.

Like this?



This hit me so hard as an early teenager and it's still one of my favorite "bad endings" in video games.

 

[Milennin]

I'm not against any story cliches as anything can be made to work when done well, and the best ideas can be ruined by poor execution. For gameplay cliches, these would be:

• No visible enemy HP gauges and no other indicators as for how much HP an enemy might have left.
• When annoying conditions can be spammed by enemies, like constantly having my characters stunned in fights against regular enemies, or when their every other attack poisons my guys making it useless to spend resources on treating it.
• Huge RNG swings in the form of evasion and critical hit modifiers, or damage calculations with large percentages of variance (>10%.)
• Classes/characters that can do only a single thing in combat.
• Giant-ass MP pools with the only way to regain MP being by drinking potions or resting at an inn/save crystal.
• When skill lists consists of skill and same skill with bigger damage.
• When skills are like auto-attack but with bigger damage and an MP cost attached.
• When skill descriptions don't tell me useful information in what they do, or lack consistency in how they're written across the game.
• Elemental rock-paper-scissors.
• Maze-like maps with no clear points of reference so you're made to wander around aimlessly until you stumble upon the exit.
• Crafting systems and the inventory clutter and tedious collection aspect they bring with them.
• When realism is used to make basic things more tedious, like making each enemy drop a unique trash item that I have to sell one by one for a tiny amount of gold (at the very least implement a sell trash button.)

 

[RCXGaming]

Couldn't finish the work I was gonna do on my game but I'm also not tired enough to sleep, so I'll address some points.

Spoiler: Insomnia

• No visible enemy HP gauges and no other indicators as for how much HP an enemy might have left.

Yeah, that sounds about right. I always think it's pretty silly when a game made nowadays doesn't have visible HP in their combat, primarily because the lack of it doesn't really help people?

Whereas I have seen time and time again people deciding to stick a battle out that they'd otherwise give up on because they can see the enemy's HP.

• When annoying conditions can be spammed by enemies, like constantly having my characters stunned in fights against regular enemies, or when their every other attack poisons my guys making it useless to spend resources on treating it.

I developed at least three counters to this.

* An accessory that auto-removes any bad status effect (the Lum Berry from Pokemon, if you're potentially familiar) but eats itself up afterwards. It's trivial to set up too, given that you can change equipment mid-combat.

* The same thing as the above but a variant that activates if ANYBODY in the party is inflicted with a "can't move" status effect.

* A floating turret accessory that can fight for you even if you can't move.

--

As well as the proposal of a system where you can choose to expend TP to break out of "can't move" statuses if you mash buttons in combat. But that one I thought up right now, so I dunno how it'd go down in real combat.

• Huge RNG swings in the form of evasion and critical hit modifiers, or damage calculations with large percentages of variance (>10%.)

Evasion is very tricky if it can't be controlled. But damage variance I feel would be better just being straight up removed for 99% of your skills.

The odd 1% of course being reserved for gambler skills where the variance is 50% because sometimes chaos is funny.

• Giant-ass MP pools with the only way to regain MP being by drinking potions or resting at an inn/save crystal.

I'm... not sure I follow? How else would you want the MP pools to be refilled? Because the way I do it is that you naturally regenerate MP every turn or from a few steps on the overworld.

I have a few checks preventing this from being unbearable, mainly:
* Skills also having percentage costs
* The Curse status knocking you down to a 15% MP loop where you can't regenerate more or less than that amount specifically, leaving you with the most basic skills
* Cooldowns / limited uses on most important attacks

Maybe TP attacks that restore MP? Dunno, just spitballing.

• When skill lists consists of skill and same skill with bigger damage.
• When skills are like auto-attack but with bigger damage and an MP cost attached.

It's pretty disheartening whenever I see the "auto-attack is the best option" or "Fire-Fira-Firaga" diseases in RPGs, honestly.

• Elemental rock-paper-scissors.

Is the reason why I have enemies that:

* Have shifting elemental shields or change their own element

* Punish you with counters. I have a guy who guts you with a strong attack if you dare use dark attacks on him, for one, despite that being his weakness.

* Have the opposites of the elements punch each other out anyway, since too many resistances just make the game a slog.

* Anti-Element cards that protect the user from an attack of that element, so it's important to steal it from them

• Crafting systems and the inventory clutter and tedious collection aspect they bring with them.

My issue that I've increasingly been seeing is that the crafting system usually introduced never interfaces with anything that isn't just making equipment. A lot of crafting systems would be improved if you needed to use it for story quests or side quests, for one.

A thing I liked in Kingdom Hearts 2 (despite the implementation being the most ass method possible) is that if you collected enough of a certain material you could just buy it.

Just replace "enough of a material" with "you can buy the material outright after getting it once" or, not even that, just buy the material outright from a dedicated store.

• When realism is used to make basic things more tedious, like making each enemy drop a unique trash item that I have to sell one by one for a tiny amount of gold (at the very least implement a sell trash button.)

The sell trash button is very funny, I'll take that one even if I'll probably never use it.

 

[Milennin]

I'm... not sure I follow? How else would you want the MP pools to be refilled? Because the way I do it is that you naturally regenerate MP every turn or from a few steps on the overworld.

I have a few checks preventing this from being unbearable, mainly:
* Skills also having percentage costs
* The Curse status knocking you down to a 15% MP loop where you can't regenerate more or less than that amount specifically, leaving you with the most basic skills
* Cooldowns / limited uses on most important attacks

Maybe TP attacks that restore MP? Dunno, just spitballing.

I've always had multiple ways of restoring MP with the use of skills. This means that characters have smaller pools, but their abilities/passives have ways to restore it during combat itself. That's just my way of doing it, and I'm shocked to see how rare this concept is when I go through RPG Maker projects to play (though admittedly it's been years ago since I actively sought out games to play...)

Is the reason why I have enemies that:

* Have shifting elemental shields or change their own element

* Punish you with counters. I have a guy who guts you with a strong attack if you dare use dark attacks on him, for one, despite that being his weakness.

* Have the opposites of the elements punch each other out anyway, since too many resistances just make the game a slog.

* Anti-Element cards that protect the user from an attack of that element, so it's important to steal it from them

It can work if there's enough elements to flesh it out. But I dislike it when say you're entering a fire dungeon and now your fire guy is reduced to using normal attacks only because his spells become ineffective.

 

[trouble time]

It can work if there's enough elements to flesh it out. But I dislike it when say you're entering a fire dungeon and now your fire guy is reduced to using normal attacks only because his spells become ineffective.

You bring up a cliche im not fond of. Single element party members or magic being primarily variations of the same spell with different elements.

 

[Lunesis]

Honestly, I don't mind cliches as long as they are well executed. Making a game as quirky or edgy as possible also doesn't make it automatically better than something in a familiar setting. It's not like Fantasy or Sci-Fi RPGs will ever go out of style. What you should be focusing on is

-Fun gameplay
-A sense of discovery
-Getting the player to be invested in your story and characters
-Making your world consistent and at least somewhat believable
-Lots of polish

 

[Timeline_man]

Gonna have to disagree on that one. Its actually quite easy.

I mean, Churches are usually a system of power, and most RPGs tend to involve power systems being bad and corrupt, at least the famous ones do