RPG Maker Has A Terrible Reputation

TheAM-Dol

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Hello,
Over the past few weeks, I've put about 40 - 50 hours of research into the topic of RPG Maker's reputation as viewed from the general consumers (primarily Steam discussions & reviews, and Reddit).
The purpose of this research is going into a video I will be producing soon, in an effort to present the general atmosphere around the engine (from a consumers point of view), why negative trends have continued to linger around the engine, and ultimately attempting to dispel a lot of those misconceptions.

(Submissions are now closed now that the video has been published. You'll find the video linked at the bottom of the thread)

What I'm seeking:


The reason for writing this thread is that I am looking for some of your own games that you developed to add to the video. BUT, before you go dropping links into this thread, please take a moment to read what exactly I am looking for and why. There's also "business" information if you want a gauge to see how this video may benefit your game.

I am looking for 2 types of games:

1) A game that is what I would call a "Very Typical RPG Maker Game" - such as a game that uses no or very few plugins, and no or very few assets beyond the default assets and should be - at a glance - very easy for anyone to know what engine the game was built in.

or

2) On the extreme opposite end, games that look nothing like your "very typical RPG Maker Game" - these are games that have 100% unique art, tons and tons of plugins and engine customization, and should be - at a glance - difficult to determine what engine the game was built in.

There are some rules around these:
1) No adult games. because A) it's difficult to have to censor or "speak in code" to avoid Youtube either TOSing the video into oblivion or otherwise flagging it as adult and therefore limiting it's potential reach. B ) Depending on how well this video does, I have already begun planning another video about the cultural fringe that is attracted to RPG Maker, so it's better to save the adult games for that video.
2) The game needs to be finished, or otherwise in 1.0. That means no early-access games. I'm trying to paint RPG Maker in the best light possible, and like RPG Maker's reputation being tarnished by people abusing it's accessibility, Early Access also has a fairly tarnished reputation of abandoned projects. I don't want even a 1% chance that a game might become abandoned, potentially giving more ammunition towards the engine that "games are unfinished".
3) The game must have at least some user reviews (and some means more than 1). I'll discuss this more below.
4) No games that fall vaguely between these 2 categories. I am deliberately asking for these 2 polar opposites for a reason, I'm not looking for a game that falls in the middle of the 2 categories, as I already have a selection of games picked out that I think paint the middle of the gradient well. (It's a little bit too restrictive and I am worried it may limit how many people can submit.)
5) Though not a hard and fast rule, I would prefer that the game is available on Steam - however I already have plans to show a game from Itch.io, so obviously I can make some exceptions.
6) No recommendations please, only your own game :LZSsmile: I have already picked out 8 games for this video that I plan to cover, so I am not looking for other people's work, but instead I would like to support members of this community directly by including their own work.

What you need to provide:
Not a lot. You don't need to provide download links or keys. You just need to provide a publicly accessible link to a store page, and preferably tell me which of the 2 categories it falls under: "A Very Typical RPG Maker Game" or a game that doesn't look like an RPG Maker game. Though hopefully, if your game meets either of those categories, I should be able to know easily which category your game falls under just by looking at the pictures.

How will these games be used in the video?
There will be a section in the second chapter of the video where I attempt to define the difference between "An RPG Maker Game" and "A game built in RPG Maker".
In order to create a distinction between these 2 types, I will show examples of games that fall into these categories.

However, to be fair, the way I have painted the subject is that there really is no solid line between these 2 types, making it difficult to define what an "RPG Maker Game" is and what "A game built in RPG Maker" is, I ultimately leave it up to the viewer to make that distinction themselves. So that is to say, I am not disparaging games that look like "RPG Maker Games", nor am I saying "A game built in RPG Maker" is the superior type of game.

At this time, I already have a selection of games that I feel work well to demonstrate these two categories and demonstrate how the line can blur between the two. However, I thought it might be fun to get some of your own personal games included in the video since the video ends on a positive note about how outstandingly supportive and helpful the RPG Maker community is. So it just makes thematic sense to include some of your games in it :LZSsmile:

In the video, I will be looking at the game's store pages, including pictures and videos, checking the description, and looking at reviews. Due to the nature of this video, I'll mostly focus on the negative reviews (though I'll make a clear disclaimer in the video that I'm primarily looking at negative reviews and thus it is not an accurate representation of the game's quality)
Since the video will be focusing on negative reviews, and the general negative perception some consumers have about RPG Maker games, you need to be capable of hearing some criticism that may be raised about your game. Otherwise, you should not share your game with me.

What do YOU gain from this video?
In short: probably nothing.

Stats about my Youtube Channel:
At the time of writing, I have 796 subscribers, with an average low of 10 views and an average high of 20. Click-through impressions often hover between high 1% and low 2% (the average is typically between 3 - 5%) However, this video would be A-typical on my channel, and often when I post a-typical content my viewership rises between 50 - 100.
So the fact of the matter is that my reach is negligible, and therefore you should not rely on this video as a source of marketing your game. Regardless of it's reach, of course I will still be linking all the games in the video description so any curious viewer can easily access your game's store page.
However, there are some points to consider:
#1) RPG Maker as a topic has recently seen rather high success in Youtube Recommendations. I've personally seen 3 videos appear in my recommended feed about RPG Maker as a topic, with views well, well above the channels subscribers - in other words, these videos reached virality. Though it is still highly unlikely that my video will see this kind of virality, due to it's nature about RPG Maker as a topic means that it has a higher chance compared to other RPG Maker videos (such as reviews, tutorials, or dev logs) to reach virality.
#2) This topic is considered "Evergreen", meaning that it is always relevant - or in other words people will always be looking for it. The opposite of "Evergreen" content would be things such as news, current events, and (most) media reviews - these are events that are relevant at the moment, but lose relevancy quickly, and thus viewership falls off quickly. Why does this matter? Well it means it will always have a chance of becoming viral later in the future (RPG Maker Unite?), but at the very least may mean low, but consistent views.

What do I gain from this?
Over the past month (arguably past 6 months), I've been making an effort to improve the viewership of my youtube channel as a means of potentially using it as a platform to market my upcoming game - hopefully it will bring in one or two more sales than I expect :LZSsmile:
While this video's topic is something I am deeply interested in as I often found myself researching the topic even before I had decided to make this video, I also see it as a chance of possibly increasing my channels viewership and therefore potentially increasing the amount of traffic to my game.
Anyone that directly contributes to this project is therefore helping increase the success of the video, and therefore potentially increase my sales once the game is complete. Due to this, I believe it is necessary for any contributors to receive a credit in my game, likely under the title of "Production Contributor" or "Marketing Contributor".

Thanks for taking the time to read all this, I hope you will contribute your game to this project.
The video will be produced live, and therefore premiere live on June 25th, at 9PM +9GMT. Therefore, the thread will be open for submissions until the end of Friday, June 24th.
(I am deliberately not posting links to my channel here. Depending on how many people are interested here, I may post an update with a link after the video has aired. Otherwise, if there isn't that much interested, I will get in contact with those who submit privately and give them the link to the video.)

Take care of yourself, and thank you for all of your support.
 
Last edited:

ShadowDragon

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I know of some very unique games which alot of plugin, and didn't
saw many games without any use of plugins (as I know there were
jams for it).

you can do alot without plugins if you know how to event.
I made a dance demo and ocarina demo (both require 2-3 plugins)
just to get the mechanic to work correctly.

I think the bad reviews is more that they exspect much more from the
engine that it could handle, while alot is possible with eventing alone.

using variables. switches, wait is mostly crucial in this and takes time
to learn how to use them effectively.

some use scriptcalls in it too (require basic knowledge) to get things done.

I know some uses heavy scriptcalls for its own function, but if you want
everything out of it what the default cannot do for you require plugins.

some are paid, some are free, depending on the game you make.
if you dont want to learn the up and downs, than you wont go far.

if you want some good game that uses some nice games with many
plugin uses, I can give you some to check out, but I dont know many
without.

but without plugins is mostly, as basic as possible what every child
could do and learn easely.

(this is my opinion of aspect what I know).
 

TheAM-Dol

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Thanks!
Actually, I'm not looking for recommendation of other people's games, I'm looking for games that you, yourself, have created. In a sense, this is a chance for you to self-promote.

Also, on a different note, I just wanted to say that there was some important information I forgot to put in the original thread. I have now edited the thread and added it under the fold of the "What do YOU gain from this video?"

Here is the new information:

What do I gain from this?
Over the past month (arguably past 6 months), I've been making an effort to improve the viewership of my youtube channel as a means of potentially using it as a platform to market my upcoming game - hopefully it will bring in one or two more sales than I expect :LZSsmile:
While this video's topic is something I am deeply interested in as I often found myself researching the topic even before I had decided to make this video, I also see it as a chance of possibly increasing my channels viewership and therefore potentially increasing the amount of traffic to my game.
Anyone that directly contributes to this project is therefore helping increase the success of the video, and therefore potentially increase my sales once the game is complete. Due to this, I believe it is necessary for any contributors to receive a credit in my game, likely under the title of "Production Contributor" or "Marketing Contributor".
 

ShadowDragon

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I dont have any games, my side game and main game is still in progress =)
but the minigame project (evented) is what I made.

while they can be a bit advanced, but usefull in ther game progress.
but I think it's a good idea to know what RPG Maker can do alone :)

so I hope you can make a successfull video on this topic ^^
I'ma watch it for sure what you created ^^
 

bgillisp

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I dunno if this is quite what you are looking for, but this was made for a 24 hour game jam where no plug-ins or scripts were allowed per the jam rules. In fact the only thing allowed was what came with the engine. This is what I made for that:


If you check the link on there for the game jam you can find the other 8 entries too and see what others did with no plug-ins and no scripts and no outside assets. Maybe some of those will be what you want?
 

lianderson

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Submit everythingI Down with the categories! Power to your channel and the game make!

Good day human.
 
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Here's a demo https://fifeferisland.itch.io/fi
and here's the Steam version
Full disclosure, I got paid to work on this project in various roles and did a lot of development on it, though I am no longer part of the team and am out of the loop in terms of any ongoing dev.

I think this is a great example of what's possible with the RPG Maker engine. Toby Madden of Power Parametrics, is the project owner and funder. He spared no expense in bringing in quality art and animation as well as paying close attention to details like sound and UI/UX.

Three things really elevated this project, imo. 1) The near-complete art replacement along with animated cutscenes and parallax mapping. 2) Extensive use of Visustella Plugins along with other plugins to provide depth of experience. 3) INTENSE use of SumRndmDde's HUDMaker Ultra Pro.

This last one is open to people who have very small budgets for their games. Last I checked it was $40 and it is the most game-changing $40 you could possibly spend on your game.

Anyway, I think that's a pretty good example of what you can do with a Pro-Am dev team. Iirc, the demo took 3 months from concept and first meeting to alpha launch.
 

woootbm

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I'm not sure I agree with what you're presenting. You want both minimalist and extravagant projects, but it seems like both are evidence of good games? You're just assuming these games are good in spite of bad reviews?

The plain truth is that the stigma exists for a reason. RPG Maker is so easy to use and has such freedom in its EULA that just about any idiot can crap out a game using it. And as such, people who have no business making games are able to make games.

Obviously I'm not hating on RPGM. I used it and am still using it. In my opinion, it's just a tool. Tools can be used to make both good art and bad art; the result is dependent on the artist. So to act like the majority of games made with it are good is foolishly optimistic.
 

TheAM-Dol

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A lot of replies, I definitely appreciate it! I hope there will be some more too!

Let's start at the top...
@bgillisp
I'll add it to the list! Sounds interesting and perfect for the first category.

@lianderson & @Starbird_Resources both games look perfect for this as well and I will include them in the video!

@HOLYMOTHER The art is definitely captivating, and it sounds really interesting, but I'm going to have to be consistent with my rules, and one of the requirements is that the game is finished, so unfortunately I won't be able to include it.

@woootbm
I'm not certain how you were able to come to the conclusion that the video is saying all RPG Maker games are good. It also seems a bit premature to be able to agree or disagree with a concept of a video that hasn't been released yet, and was only discussed in part in this thread. I feel like I should have clarified this more.
The video is not about how great RPG Maker games are, but in reality, RPG Maker is (as you said) just a tool for developing games, so it's unfair for consumers to ignore an entire type of games due to the stigma of a few bad games. I also draw parallel how low-effort games are not unique to RPG Maker, but can be found in abundance from any accessible game creation tool.
The idea of a video that simply states all RPG Maker games are good is a bit juvenile of a concept, so I would hope you would be willing to give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that is not what this video is about.

I only discussed the second chapter, which is the most relevant to this thread, but for further clarification, I'll briefly go over each of the 5 chapters so you have a better sense of what I am talking about:
Chapter 1: A Brief History - it's as the name implies, just a short history of RPG Maker. I actually am not a fan of "video essays" (not a fan of calling my video that either, but I suppose that is what it is) that spend too long on history that is ultimately not necessary for the point of the story. So, this section will likely be very brief.
Chapter 2: Defining the Difference: "Built in RPG Maker" & "An RPG Maker Game" - this is the chapter discussed in this thread, where the point is to show a variety of different games built in RPG Maker and allow the viewer to decide when we cross from the stigmatized "RPG Maker Game" and over the threshold for "A game built in RPG Maker" (or in other words: just a game).
In this chapter I also bring up the topic of low-effort games, and how low-effort games are prevalent from all engines, Unity and Unreal, not just RPG Maker.
Chapter 3: How 1 small Tag Ruins an Entire Community's Success - in this chapter I investigate how Steam tags may negatively affect traffic to developer's games when these games are under the "RPG Maker" tag. Again, in an effort to balance both sides of this discussion, I also raise the point that this tag also helps filter people who are more likely to leave higher quality feedback.
Chapter 4: Hiding the Shame of this Community's Engine - in this chapter I discuss the lengths in which developers go to scrub away what I call "RPG Maker-isms" in an effort to hide the engine they used to maximize traffic to their game. This also includes discussion about art and UX, as well as a brief discussion on how social backgrounds and skills can hinder or help game creators, but seem to be felt even more with games built in RPG Maker.
Chapter 5: A Community that Welcomes Everyone, Even When No One Welcomes Them - it's a bit of a hyperbolic title, but I think paints a pretty good picture of the dichotomy between the makers (as in the RPG Maker community) and the consumer.
In this chapter it's primarily anecdotal, focused on my experience using other forums in my time and how that compares to the quality and number of responses I receive on RPG Maker forums. It also stipulates that because of the higher quality responses members receive here, it likely creates a positive feedback loop, where new devs are capable of pushing through discouraging roadblocks, allowing them to grow to become veteran devs, which allows them to pass on their knowledge to new devs that hit discouraging roadblocks, thus creating this positive cycle of ever improving games, if a bit slow.

Although I did a ton of research, I think I would need twice or more research to really come to concrete conclusions - I would also likely need some generous developers from all different game development backgrounds, not just RPG Maker, to give some figures and data. I am appreciative of Missile here on the forums who candidly made some sales figures public after the release of Amber Throne - which may, or may not be one of the games making an appearance in this video :LZSwink: But I would certainly need more than just that to come to better conclusions. Overall, the video is mostly based on observations :LZSsmile:

There's one more edit I forgot to include in the original post:
Of course, I will also be including links to all the games featured in the video's description.
 

Nenen

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I don't really have any projects that would fit this [honestly tempted to give recommends anyway XD], But I would like to say that I'm very much interested in seeing the final video product.

I also agree with your anecdotal sentiment that for the most part, the RPGmaker community is one of the friendliest, especially on these forums.
(Then you have the RM community on Reddit :p for a bit of a counter-point.)
 

ATT_Turan

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it's unfair for consumers to ignore an entire type of games due to the stigma of a few bad games.
You don't need to justify yourself here, but...do they? O__o

I've seen plenty of Steam games with the RPG Maker tag that have reviews, which means purchases. I hope if this is your premise, that you plan to provide in your video some reasoning as to why you think consumers (which is an awfully broad term to begin with) ignore an entire type of game.

I mean, there are plenty of video game consumers who don't look hard at or ever purchase any kind of indie game - I have very few. RPG Maker often has nothing to do with it.

I know you have to start somewhere, but I wouldn't claim that "players of video games who choose to discuss them on Reddit" is a majority of consumers, nor necessarily representative.
I also draw parallel how low-effort games are not unique to RPG Maker, but can be found in abundance from any accessible game creation tool.
Again, I don't know who exactly you're aiming your video at, but I feel like anyone who has looked at Steam or their cell phone's app store knows this.

Anyhow, good luck with your project.
 

woootbm

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The video is not about how great RPG Maker games are, but in reality, RPG Maker is (as you said) just a tool for developing games, so it's unfair for consumers to ignore an entire type of games due to the stigma of a few bad games. I also draw parallel how low-effort games are not unique to RPG Maker, but can be found in abundance from any accessible game creation tool.
Ah, okay. I just misunderstood the purpose because it seemed like the idea was defending RPG Maker a bit too hard. "A few bad games" is still glaringly optimistic. I'd say do a Steam search for the RPG Maker tag and scroll through that. And ask yourself if you'd really want to spend $5 (or even 5 cents) on some of the asset flip trash on there, let alone the dozens of hours you have to spend to crawl through each game.

Again, I don't know who exactly you're aiming your video at, but I feel like anyone who has looked at Steam or their cell phone's app store knows this.
I think the RPG Maker stigma is older than any of those things...? Maybe.

Here's a time capsule that you unfortunately can't really revisit: Steam Greenlight. This was a time when Steam was outsourcing verification of indie games to its own user base. How it determined who was worthy of actually getting released on the platform was based on some cryptic form of voting (there was like a top 100 or something but it seems like some people got through without doing that). Back then, you would see users automatically downvoting anything made in RPG Maker. While people were still gullible enough to allow Unity and Unreal asset flips just off broad promises.

Now there's Steam Direct. Which just tasks us RPGM dev's to cough up $100 and... that's basically it. Which is why there's now WAAAAY more RPGM games on Steam than there used to be.
 

ATT_Turan

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I think the RPG Maker stigma is older than any of those things...?...Steam Greenlight.
I recall Steam Greenlight and it's not older than all the copycat (and equally dumb) "MMO strategy" city-building-on-a-map games.

But, then, if you go back a few years before Steam Greenlight, you can get any teenager with an Internet connection slapping up stock Dragonball MUDs.

So I can't recall a time where there wasn't some kind of ability for people to create their own games, which logically led to many of them being bad.
 

gstv87

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why negative trends have continued to linger around the engine
in varying percentages, because of competing developers who bash the work of others, because of upset people who were scammed by buying incomplete games, or simply by trolls who want to discredit the brand in favor of another company.
it's impossible to tell which is which.

as long as the evaluation of the product is left to popular opinion, it's gonna be a mess.
and there is no objective gauge with which to measure it... you can't scientifically gauge "fun".
the moment we do or even attempt to, we've really hit rock bottom.
 

TheAM-Dol

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Thank you everyone, once again, for all of the replies.

@Indinera
I think sales, traffic sources, and maybe game reception (I suppose for Steam games I could easily pull the ratio from the sales page myself, but considering many RPG Maker games don't have a wide reach, I'm not sure how many might have a review aggregating website like Metacritic or Opencritic collect reviews, so in that case I guess I would need the developer to link to any reviews they know of).
At this point it's probably a little bit late to include any of that information in this video, but I imagine if this video does well and/or I enjoy making it (which I have so far), I may do a follow up, perhaps a month or so after my game's release so I could also pull information from it (which is probably a long time from now, I can't even estimate a release date for my game).
In that case, I would also like to compare it to other indie developers using other engines, not just RPG Maker. If I decide to go through with this video, I may try to reach out to some Unity, Unreal, Godot, and GameMaker devs.
edit:
Also, the game looks interesting and would be nice to use, but does it have any publicly available reviews to look at?

@Nenen
I'll let you know once the video has been published.

@ATT_Turan , @woootbm , and @gstv87
Of course, this video isn't going to create an RPG Maker renaissance :hswt: And I'm certain there will be parts not everyone will agree on. However, I'm glad it's at least created some discussion here. I really do appreciate your discussion, and I hope you will continue to discuss it, but actually since the video hasn't even been finished yet, I'm going to politely remove myself from this discussion at this time.

I feel like I should just mention a few things. I don't want to accidentally create a No Man's Sky or Cyberpunk 2077 catastrophe here, so let me temper expectations:
I'm still just a guy sitting in his living room with a webcam, a glass of bourbon and coke, and - contrary to what my written/scripted word might lead you to believe - off the cuff I'm not very elegantly spoken.
This is just a video I wanted to make, and, yes, a lot of it is based of my own observation so any conclusion I come to is hardly definitive...and I make that clear in the video too.
 

Indinera

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I think sales,

Enough to make a comfortable living for 14 years.

game reception

Pretty good in general, aggregated score above 8/10 on Big Fish Games, Greenmangaming, GamersGate etc.
"Professional" reviews generally vary from 6 to 9/10.

Also, the game looks interesting and would be nice to use, but does it have any publicly available reviews to look at?

I don't think this one ever had any review.
My first games generally had more, but many/most links will be dead by now.

Laxius Force

Millennium
 

TheAM-Dol

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Hello everyone,
I want to thank you for your contribution. I streamed this production this evening, and I feel like things went very well! It took a moment for me to "get in the groove", as it were, but I think my energy picks up as I look through the games. ngl, Wooden Ocean likely helped pick up my energy. I hope the performance of this video does better than my typical upload.
The video is here, and I have time stamped all of the chapters and all of the games, so you can either easily skip to the part you care about, or easily save your spot if you wish to watch the video over the course of a few days.
 

lianderson

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Praise be to the game make!
 

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