RPG Maker MV Season Pass DLC2 Preview!

[Archeia]

@Little Paw


Firstly, DS/DS+ are 32x32, MV is 48x48. It takes FOREVER to create bigger resources. Just that size alone adds to the amount of development time. You cannot compare it just like that. Are you an artist? Do you know how much work just that few pixels add to development time?


1.) There are fans of the original rm2k style. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean the others don't.


2.) The tilesets are understandable and KDKW is highly aware of it. It's silly to assume they're going to remake the same thing.


3.) Season Pass isn't half a year yet. 


4.) DS/DS+ is also another RTP existing. The music was remixed from MIDI to high quality (the same thing that is happening to Rm2k right now). The rest of the Rm2k music was given to you guys for free under Extra Assets. The DS set that took the most is the tileset which already took 6 months. And while it is more than VXAce (we counted them) people still think the tilesets aren't more because we didn't duplicate the tiles over and over and that is considered as the weakest of DS/DS+. What does it say about that?


5.) The battlebacks don't even fit VXA and rarely used. I don't hear complaints about that as much as my half-assed battle UI is missing instead.


6.) The monster battlers (the sprite ones) are TINY in comparison to the size in MV SV alone. An SV sprite takes around 4~6 hours to create for the fastest person from scratch or with bits and pieces from the generator.

 

[marimo]

@Little Paw Have you taken into consideration that the DS/DS+ style was small in resolution, everything that's made for rmmv is practically double its size. Especially if we consider that each character must be given a range of poses (say those damage poses) and a side view battler? The amount of work RMMV rtp requires =/= to DS/DS+. As for the generator faces, we'll just have to wait and see?

 

[Lunarea]

Let's compare that to the first two DS packs which as you said took you a year to do:

I also feel the need to point out that Archeia took a year to optimize, arrange and edit existing material (RTP from the DS version of RPG Maker). She had a base to work from, and it still took tremendous amounts of hard work to make it compatible with VX-Ace, as well as to create additional material and content for it so the pack was versatile enough.


But if she had to create all of that from scratch, it would take far, far longer.


Except for the first DLC music, the materials in the Season Pass are being created from scratch. And they are being created to meet the 2½-month deadline, as we still need a couple of weeks to set-up the download and test the material. Expecting 160 characters to be done in 2½ months is not realistic - even when you have a giant team of artists.

 

[Lunarea]

Also, folks, I do want to point out a few extra things...


1) We do appreciate the feedback, even if it's negative. We obviously don't want to release things that are useless and not worth our time to develop. And we appreciate those of you who share it politely. It makes it much easier to process and absorb when we're not feeling like we're being screamed at. But a HUGE amount of our work is done behind the scenes, so you will likely never really see the kind of direct impact your feedback has.


2) We know what's planned for this DLC, but we can't talk about it - both due to our contractual obligations and due to the agreements we have with KDKW. We would love to reassure you and show you that the Season Pass is very much worth it with the sheer amount of planned content, but we can't actually share any of the details. And saying "trust us, it's worth it" seems to make people more angry and confused.


So, I want to stress that we have always put customers and community first and that we pushed hard to make sure that the released material is useful. It's not useful to everyone and it's certainly not what some were expecting, but there was no way we could make everyone happy. We're just working on including a variety of material so the chance of finding something that works for you is bigger. Also note that this DLC is marketed to the Japanese market as well, which sometimes has very different wants and needs that the international community does.


3) Please do remember that this DLC is both released incrementally and has a price that's fair compared to the other resource packs we offer. You may not see the full value of the pack until all parts are released, and the price/content ratio will be kept close to the average we charge for other original DLC packs currently up for sale.


Also ... Before more comparisons pop up... Samurai, DS and DS+ are a fantastic value for the customer and we're glad to offer them. But they do not make a good content/price ratio - especially for an individual artist who has to create all the material themselves. All the DLC we offer is at a significant discount already, compared to the industry standards. We don't want to (or should, really) push for such low prices that content creators are driven away to different markets.


We would rather focus on providing content that's sized and priced more fairly and include free updates in the future than force a market where original artists receive pennies for several months' worth of work -- and this applies to the new material Degica or KDKW create, too.

 

[Little Paw]

@Little Paw


Firstly, DS/DS+ are 32x32, MV is 48x48. It takes FOREVER to create bigger resources. Just that size alone adds to the amount of development time. You cannot compare it just like that. Are you an artist? Do you know how much work just that few pixels add to development time?


1.) There are fans of the original rm2k style. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean the others don't.


2.) The tilesets are understandable and KDKW is highly aware of it. It's silly to assume they're going to remake the same thing.


3.) Season Pass isn't half a year yet. 


4.) DS/DS+ is also another RTP existing. The music was remixed from MIDI to high quality (the same thing that is happening to Rm2k right now). The rest of the Rm2k music was given to you guys for free under Extra Assets. The DS set that took the most is the tileset which already took 6 months. And while it is more than VXAce (we counted them) people still think the tilesets aren't more because we didn't duplicate the tiles over and over and that is considered as the weakest of DS/DS+. What does it say about that?


5.) The battlebacks don't even fit VXA and rarely used. I don't hear complaints about that as much as my half-assed battle UI is missing instead.


6.) The monster battlers (the sprite ones) are TINY in comparison to the size in MV SV alone. An SV sprite takes around 4~6 hours to create for the fastest person from scratch or with bits and pieces from the generator.

@Archeia, I understand that it takes time to create bigger resources. I'm absolutely not expecting for there to be nearly as much content as the DS packs had, especially considering that they're based on existing artwork. However, I still think that, given what we know so far, it does not appear that we will be getting even half as much content. Perhaps not even a quarter as much content. But my bigger issue is that the quality of the assets does not appear to be up to snuff compared to what I think most people expected from official resources. But let me address each of your points here...


1. I like the original RM2k style, actually. But these new assets don't even really look like the original artwork from 2k/3. The style of the faces/busts is completely different and I would argue are objectively worse looking and very amateurish compared to the artwork featured in 2k/3. The character sprites seem fine to me, though.


2. Well, I really do hope they do a good job with it. P.S. Ship tileset plz


3. I know that. But there's only 2 more parts of the season pass that we haven't seen any content from and unless you guys do something drastic and spectacular with those last 2 parts, I don't think it will be worth the money in terms of content. For the record, I already bought the Season Pass.


4. Actually I think the tilesets for DS/DS+ are fantastic and pretty much my only complaints about them are that they're split into separate files and have a lot of empty space on them where you could have combined the tilesets, and that the square trees are a bit weird.


5. Eh, it's no big deal.


6. Understandable.

@Little Paw Have you taken into consideration that the DS/DS+ style was small in resolution, everything that's made for rmmv is practically double its size. Especially if we consider that each character must be given a range of poses (say those damage poses) and a side view battler? The amount of work RMMV rtp requires =/= to DS/DS+. As for the generator faces, we'll just have to wait and see?

This is true too. But the entirety of the DS/DS+ packs (as far as I know) was done by Archeia by herself. These are official DLC packs supposedly being made by the developers of the program. Would they not have a team of people to dedicate to these assets? If one person can do what Archeia did in one year with the DS/DS+ packs, imagine what a team of 10 people should be able to do in a year.

I also feel the need to point out that Archeia took a year to optimize, arrange and edit existing material (RTP from the DS version of RPG Maker). She had a base to work from, and it still took tremendous amounts of hard work to make it compatible with VX-Ace, as well as to create additional material and content for it so the pack was versatile enough.


But if she had to create all of that from scratch, it would take far, far longer.


Except for the first DLC music, the materials in the Season Pass are being created from scratch. And they are being created to meet the 2½-month deadline, as we still need a couple of weeks to set-up the download and test the material. Expecting 160 characters to be done in 2½ months is not realistic - even when you have a giant team of artists.

Again, I don't expect 160 characters in MV, what with the SV Battlers and so on. But it seems like everyone is dodging my argument that the quality of the season pass assets thusfar not only does not match the default assets (the faces/busts) but looks AMATEUR. I think that if you had put out 16 characters with faces/busts that actually matched with the default assets or just plain looked decent, it would not be so much of a problem.


Also, I question again why the decision was to base the Season Pass content on 2k/3 and not on high-quality original content in the first place, and also not actually tell anybody that it was going to be based on 2k3. If it were me in charge of the business decisions, I would have had some other developers working on a new, high-quality, original set of season pass content that would be released slowly over time, and then had the people who designed THIS content instead waited until they had a complete pack of 2k/3-remade assets and released it as a totally separate DLC pack down the road. With better busts/faces, as well...

Also, folks, I do want to point out a few extra things...


1) We do appreciate the feedback, even if it's negative. We obviously don't want to release things that are useless and not worth our time to develop. And we appreciate those of you who share it politely. It makes it much easier to process and absorb when we're not feeling like we're being screamed at. But a HUGE amount of our work is done behind the scenes, so you will likely never really see the kind of direct impact your feedback has.


2) We know what's planned for this DLC, but we can't talk about it - both due to our contractual obligations and due to the agreements we have with KDKW. We would love to reassure you and show you that the Season Pass is very much worth it with the sheer amount of planned content, but we can't actually share any of the details. And saying "trust us, it's worth it" seems to make people more angry and confused.


So, I want to stress that we have always put customers and community first and that we pushed hard to make sure that the released material is useful. It's not useful to everyone and it's certainly not what some were expecting, but there was no way we could make everyone happy. We're just working on including a variety of material so the chance of finding something that works for you is bigger. Also note that this DLC is marketed to the Japanese market as well, which sometimes has very different wants and needs that the international community does.


3) Please do remember that this DLC is both released incrementally and has a price that's fair compared to the other resource packs we offer. You may not see the full value of the pack until all parts are released, and the price/content ratio will be kept close to the average we charge for other original DLC packs currently up for sale.


Also ... Before more comparisons pop up... Samurai, DS and DS+ are a fantastic value for the customer and we're glad to offer them. But they do not make a good content/price ratio - especially for an individual artist who has to create all the material themselves. All the DLC we offer is at a significant discount already, compared to the industry standards. We don't want to (or should, really) push for such low prices that content creators are driven away to different markets.


We would rather focus on providing content that's sized and priced more fairly and include free updates in the future than force a market where original artists receive pennies for several months' worth of work -- and this applies to the new material Degica or KDKW create, too.

1. I understand. But I'm not screaming at you. I'm just being honest. Not all criticism has to be pleasant.


2. I understand that there are sometimes contractual obligations that you can't do anything about. Though I think that if I were in your position, I would kindly ask Kadokawa if you could release more preview images for upcoming content to reassure players that it will be worth their money to buy the season pass. Assuming it is, anyway.


3. Again, unless you can pull something surprising on us - which I really hope you do - it doesn't look like it will be worth the money even though it's being released incrementally. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to say "Blah! This sucks! Waste of money!" I'm actually hoping that it does become worth the money.

 

[Archeia]

@Archeia, I understand that it takes time to create bigger resources. I'm absolutely not expecting for there to be nearly as much content as the DS packs had, especially considering that they're based on existing artwork. However, I still think that, given what we know so far, it does not appear that we will be getting even half as much content. Perhaps not even a quarter as much content. But my bigger issue is that the quality of the assets does not appear to be up to snuff compared to what I think most people expected from official resources. But let me address each of your points here...


This is true too. But the entirety of the DS/DS+ packs (as far as I know) was done by Archeia by herself. These are official DLC packs supposedly being made by the developers of the program. Would they not have a team of people to dedicate to these assets? If one person can do what Archeia did in one year with the DS/DS+ packs, imagine what a team of 10 people should be able to do in a year.

This is the Rm2k style. Rm2k3 has a different style all together.


Rm2k: 

  Rm2k3: 

No, I didn't convert DS/DS+ by myself. In fact, the credits file shows that we had to outsource artists (like Evil Eagles, Caz, Ocean and Tobby) to help on some of the resources/collab to release it on time, fix issues and give you guys a sizable amount of resources for such a low price.


For season pass, there's less time (2 and a half months per DLC) to even create as big as DS pack and some of the people might be outsourced, but it's not as big of a team as you think. The pack is being created as the time goes, it's season pass for a reason. It's incremental. There is no 'advanced' previews.

 

[Little Paw]

This is the Rm2k style. Rm2k3 has a different style all together.


Rm2k: 

  Rm2k3: 

No, I didn't convert DS/DS+ by myself. In fact, the credits file shows that we had to outsource artists (like Evil Eagles, Caz, Ocean and Tobby) to help on some of the resources/collab to release it on time, fix issues and give you guys a sizable amount of resources for such a low price.


For season pass, there's less time (2 and a half months per DLC) to create as big as DS pack and some of the people might be outsourced, but it's not as big of a team as you think. The pack is being created as the time goes, it's season pass for a reason. It's incremental. There is no 'advanced' previews.

Oh uh... wow. I actually had no idea. I'd never actually used 2k before, only 2k3.


It actually does look pretty similar to the new busts and faces. It's so weird though, cause I was looking at these new busts/faces and was like "Well that's NOTHING like I remember!"


Well now I just feel like an ass...


Okay but still, I still think it would have made a lot more sense to use the Season Pass as a way to distribute NEW and original content instead of a remade 2k, which I think should have been it's own separate thing...

 

[felsenstern]

@Little Paw Palxan and you made it already very clear that you expected graphic content kept in the style MV was coming in, to extend your game with further variations of characters. It's clear and everyone understands it. They know that better than you because they are running polls on what users here want most, but obviously they have not much influence on the content.

 

[Lunarea]

Also, I question again why the decision was to base the Season Pass content on 2k/3 and not on high-quality original content in the first place, and also not actually tell anybody that it was going to be based on 2k3. If it were me in charge of the business decisions, I would have had some other developers working on a new, high-quality, original set of season pass content that would be released slowly over time, and then had the people who designed THIS content instead waited until they had a complete pack of 2k/3-remade assets and released it as a totally separate DLC pack down the road. With better busts/faces, as well...

There's several factors that go into decisions like these such as:


a.) Timing -- an established style where you don't have to also come up with a design means you can create the material faster. We have/had an extremely short deadline to create large amounts of material - and, no, there aren't a hundred artists working on making resources.


b.) Experience -- this is the first time that we've adopted a model of incremental releases. Every single release we've had so far has been for complete stand-alone packs, and moving to a different model of creating means encountering all kinds of issues and problems we have not had to deal with before. Using familiar art/concepts reduces having to deal with art/style issues on top of it.


c.) Risk -- though not everyone is a fan of RM2K, there's enough positive feedback for it to know there's an audience. So, the level of risk is not the same as a random theme that might be a hit or miss. Even a popular theme like "fantasy" can be risky if we have no precedent for it.


Beyond that, I can't really discuss details. But it wasn't a type of decision made to mess with the fans or make people disappointed. We just had to juggle a lot of different things - from quality and amount of content to making sure it's released on time. There was a lot of really angry people when the DLC was late, and we don't want to repeat that either.


Another thing to add is that we have, in between the DLC updates, released a ton of completely new and original resource packs in addition to having free bits and pieces released on a weekly basis. I realize they're not a part of this Season Pass, but we're really not depriving the community from having access to great material.

1. I understand. But I'm not screaming at you. I'm just being honest. Not all criticism has to be pleasant.

In case it wasn't clear, that post was not aimed directly at you - nor was it implying that you were screaming. I'm just pointing out -in general- that calm, collected discussions yield better results than angry rants. Not accusing you of making an angry rant, just posting a friendly community reminder.

2. I understand that there are sometimes contractual obligations that you can't do anything about. Though I think that if I were in your position, I would kindly ask Kadokawa if you could release more preview images for upcoming content to reassure players that it will be worth their money to buy the season pass. Assuming it is, anyway.

When we have finished material we can show off, we do post a preview - like we did exactly with this thread. We can't really post previews before that because we don't have the material. We aren't going to post WIP shots because they're not always available, and also because it causes a lot of confusion. People assume that's the finished product and they get upset. We like to avoid that sort of thing.

3. Again, unless you can pull something surprising on us - which I really hope you do - it doesn't look like it will be worth the money even though it's being released incrementally. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to say "Blah! This sucks! Waste of money!" I'm actually hoping that it does become worth the money.

And, as I said, the best we can do is vaguely say that it does. Having seen the list and having gone over the plan several times, I can safely say that there will be $29.99 worth of content overall - quantity-wise, each of the 4 increments is valued at more than $7.49 if it were released in store.


I can't guarantee that all of it will be personally useful to you, though. I think it's important to differentiate between a pack being worth it because it's personally useful for your project(s) and worth it because it actually offers the X amount of resources for Y price.

 

[Little Paw]

I can safely say that there will be $19.99 worth of content overall - quantity-wise, each of the 4 increments is valued at more than $4.99 if it were released in store.

But... The season pass is $30

 

[Lunarea]

Sorry for the typo! I was trying to multi-task and failed miserably...


I've adjusted my post.

 

[Makio-Kuta]

The updated 2K busts made me smile this morning. I just wanted to say that I thought they were great and that the artist did a nice job remaining the style. It broke my heart to see them being called low quality, even if I'm looking at them with nostalgia glasses on.

 

[Shin Kitsune]

Oh, my God, this is...


A BUNDLE OF EPICNESS!


Seriously, these look really great! I'm actually itching to see what's in store.

 

[Rogue Milk]

I find it awesome how you guys were able to kept the original style for those characters but I also find it a little problematic since this particular style does't fit all that well with the standart MV RTP's style. I personally would prefer the characters faces and busts made on MV RTP's style.


But hey, it is always better to at least have the option.


And it is true that many of us have at some point had a game idea with those characters.

 

[Killuki Zaoldyeck]

Each DLC will be priced at 10$ and will be for sale separately once the pack is fully released? That means that this Season Pass will be saving us 10$?


If so, then I prefer wait until all the packs are released with the previews and then purchase the packs that I find useful for my project, because I agree that having different art styles is a very high problem, because the busts and faces of RPG2k characters doesn't match with the MV style, it makes the characters graphics practically unusable for my project, because in my project I will use the faces and busts of Cover Art Characters (and some others fitting with the MV/VX/VXAce Style), all I could do with the SV and char sprites of the remade 2k chars is treat them as mercenaries or something like this that doesn't require show their faces and busts, which is something that I'm not interested in, I wanted to use them on the history of my game plus the heros of VX/Ace.


I understand that these busts are based exactly in the same style than the original 2k, I remember this very well because I was using a p(*Cough*) version of the program when I was preteen, and then I used the 2k3 for do an 1-hour long game (PS: I stopped to use the p(*cough*igotacold) version also when I was preteen due demotivation now I have the license of RPG2k/2k3/XP/VXAce/MV in my steam account ). Despite that me and other persons won't find them useful due the "lack" of useable faces and busts, we can still hope for a re-remake of their faces and busts based in MV style being released as a completely new DLC, either being made by Degica or Kadokawa, I'm pretty sure that one of the companies (if not both, but separately) will make them someday, because they know that they will make a lotta of money selling such special package, the heros of all RPG Makers excluding the generated ones of MV are really great for a RPG Maker game, both companies knows it, and who knows, maybe they will even release someday the Cover Characters of others RPG Makers too.... 

 

[XIIIthHarbinger]

Amusing,


Apparently the concepts of basic civility & gratitude for work done by others without compensation is lost on some people. So much so that an antisocial misanthrope such as myself feels pointing out is warranted. Frankly I don't particularly care for the artstyle of this second iteration of the season pass DLC, but that is a risk I freely undertook by purchasing sight unseen. Furthermore I fully understand people desiring to use resources from previous iterations of RPG maker in their MV project as I am doing the same. 


In point of fact most DLCs are going to have some resources that fit with an intended project, & some that will not; & what category each respective asset falls into will likely change overtime. I would suggest that people start behaving like adults who are receiving a great deal more than they was ever obligated to be provided to them, rather than spoiled children entitled to the fulfillment of their every whim.


@Archeia


Please don't mistake certain people who shall remain nameless lack of civility & inability to understand basic decorum to lead you to the conclusion that your efforts are unappreciated, as I assure that is not the case.   

 

[Asphyxiate9]

Looks good, glad to see the season pass moving along. Mostly because I want to see what part 4 is


I can understand why people might be a little critical about this. Although i'm mostly happy with what we've gotten so far, I think the issue lies with the whole season pass likely to be themed as a RM2k update with no indication given that it would be.


I personally feel the season pass should have expanded on the default medieval & scifi resources similar to the essentials set or even the weekly updates. Where a RM2k update might have been better accepted as a stand alone dlc. 


Thank you for everyone's hard work making the DLC though. I'm hoping and looking forward to seeing a large library of DLC similar to ACE's library sometime in the future!

 

[DarkstarMatryx]

I personally am glad I bought the season pass and can't wait for the release of the character set. As well as the last to packs and eagerly am curious about the surprise package knowing since I haven't been dissapointed yet I won't be disappointed with that as well. I think the art and music so far looks wonderful. Just can't wait for it all to be out. But willing to wait for the great quality of it all. Thanks to all the artists and musicians and everyone involved.

 

[Little Paw]

Apparently the concepts of basic civility & gratitude for work done by others without compensation is lost on some people.

Apparently the definition of "compensation" is lost on some people.

 

[M.I.A.]

@Little Paw Season Pass is a set of ongoing DLCs that is increasing as it goes on, so by the end of the Season Pass DLC, you should have a huge set of resources ready. By buying season pass you're buying them as increments. From what I know of, the faces/busts is the only different one here but everything else is more or less the same style of resources. This is KDKW directly after all.


Also RPG Maker DS/DS+ took me an entire year or so. It's not fair to compare that to Season Pass which is incremental! 


Also ps. I disagree about the sound effects, I used most of them for animations.


This is not Kadokawa, this is Degica. Big difference if you're talking about RPG Maker Freebies. It's just there as filler before the big updates happen. Of course, one can say, Archeia stop giving us free stuff and I'll can it and restaff as well if that is giving you concern. We were remaking Rm2k characters before the Season Pass DLC was announced before you even say anything and stopped completely when we found out the themes of Season Pass.

I don't mean to start a fight or anything, but.. nobody is forcing you to use the DLC. Nobody says it's necessary for YOUR project. You bought RPG Maker MV.. which is a very flexible and customize-able piece of software. If you don't like the content that has been provided, either voluntarily or inclusively with the purchase.. then simply don't use it. Hire someone else to do your graphically/resource work for you. Or maybe create your own. It is YOUR project.. YOU have full control over the content you choose to include.


I say this because I have been tinkering with rpg makers for over a decade.. even when it wasn't legal (when 2K3 was available for purchase here, I bought it. Not because I would ever use it again, but because it was fair tribute to all the times I used it back in the day when there wasn't a legal copy to be found), and the one thing I am ALWAYS grateful for are the abundance of FREE resources within the community and the FREE plugins/scripts/support and help from within the community.


If you don't like the resource packs, go create your own on your own time, for free, and distribute them, for free.. and see for yourself how much time and dedication goes into these FREE (and even DLC) resources.

@Little Paw


Firstly, DS/DS+ are 32x32, MV is 48x48. It takes FOREVER to create bigger resources. Just that size alone adds to the amount of development time. You cannot compare it just like that. Are you an artist? Do you know how much work just that few pixels add to development time?


1.) There are fans of the original rm2k style. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean the others don't.


2.) The tilesets are understandable and KDKW is highly aware of it. It's silly to assume they're going to remake the same thing.


3.) Season Pass isn't half a year yet. 


4.) DS/DS+ is also another RTP existing. The music was remixed from MIDI to high quality (the same thing that is happening to Rm2k right now). The rest of the Rm2k music was given to you guys for free under Extra Assets. The DS set that took the most is the tileset which already took 6 months. And while it is more than VXAce (we counted them) people still think the tilesets aren't more because we didn't duplicate the tiles over and over and that is considered as the weakest of DS/DS+. What does it say about that?


5.) The battlebacks don't even fit VXA and rarely used. I don't hear complaints about that as much as my half-assed battle UI is missing instead.


6.) The monster battlers (the sprite ones) are TINY in comparison to the size in MV SV alone. An SV sprite takes around 4~6 hours to create for the fastest person from scratch or with bits and pieces from the generator.

@Archeia, I LOVE the nostalgia of these resources. I appreciate the effort going into them. I also appreciate the PLETHORA of other FREE (and DLC) goodies that come from being a part of this community. So, in PURE PROTEST ALONE I will purchase the Season Pass DLC, even though I may never use these resources. And I want to SUPPORT the creativity and dedication that you, and all other community members, put into creating new resources. Next pay check, boom. I'm in. I support you.


And FYI, the busts and faces actually look great!! Sure, they don't match RTP. Sure, I wish everything matched RTP. So what? They still look GREAT!!


-Mia