RPG Maker MZ, Preview #2: Graphics, Mapping, Eventing!

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Archeia

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I disagree, they wouldn't need to provide assets for every size, you can make your own, purchase older RPGmakers, or buy it from their or other stores.
You would be surprised at how much RPG Maker team actually wants to provide everything if they actually have a new features. Part of the reason that VXA had a limit is because they thought 32x32 was tiny and giving people access to greater than the resolution limit they set is a mistake. It's just a difference on how the developers think.
 

Shaz

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I disagree, they wouldn't need to provide assets for every size
Yeah, they actually would need to provide assets for every size. Because not everyone wants to make their own. Not everyone has the older engines with the other sized assets.

Imagine how great the uproar would be if they released an engine that could use tiles in 4 different sizes, but only provided assets for one size! Imagine how great the uproar would be if people paid for that engine, and were then told "now you need to go buy this pack and that pack if you actually want to use those features in the new engine".

There is no point in providing a feature unless it's ready to use out-of-the-box.

What would the reaction be if they replaced the MV-style animations with Effekseer, and the Animation tab was empty? Just take a look back through this very thread at the comments people have made about the front-view and side-view enemies (if you haven't read them, they're along the lines of griping because there are two battle modes, but not two different styled enemy battler sprites).

If you REALLY want a certain sized tile, and you don't want to use a plugin, then your option is to use an engine that has that sized tile. If they tried to include every option that every person wanted, the engine would never be released.
 
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Lihinel

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What would the reaction be if they replaced the MV-style animations with Effekseer, and the Animation tab was empty?
If you want pixel style 2D animations, the animation tab is probably actually empty.

Some dislike that there are no true front or sideview characters but only a mix.
And some people are displeased that the tile size is 48x48 again.

I am not saying I don't see your point, or that variable tile size is clearly superior, just that there is no perfect solution, that will make everybody happy, and that I would have liked the option of in editor support.

Similarly, I don't say that chibi characters or minecraft-esque blocky tilesets are objectively bad, just that I personally would have prefered an XP inspired set.
 

The Stranger

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@Shaz Probably the same level of outrage as there was when that Sims 4 pets expansion was released, the one that lets you have hamsters, and it turned out to be basically DLC for the cats and dogs DLC. You needed to have Cats and Dogs to use most of the stuff in this other expansion. People didn't like it.
 

MajinSonic

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I have a question. What about this stupid 999Map Limit? There is no technical clue to limit the number of maps. (Literally there is no reason to limit anything xD)
 

Archeia

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I have a question. What about this stupid 999Map Limit? There is no technical clue to limit the number of maps. (Literally there is no reason to limit anything xD)
Probably because the editor will crash. Much like how Unlimited Layers cannot be a thing due to performance issues.
 

Vanilla Cheesecake

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I have a question. What about this stupid 999Map Limit? There is no technical clue to limit the number of maps. (Literally there is no reason to limit anything xD)
Does anyone truly really need nearly 1000 maps though? I feel like if you're really hitting those numbers, you're severely overscoping or there's a serious design oversight.

Assuming you make a village with 2 areas and 25 interiors, that's 27 maps, you could make 37 of those villages before you run out of room.

To put it into perspective again, FF12, (an AAA, and probably the biggest FF game in terms of maps) has around 42 main areas with various sub areas. If we're to do some quick and dirty division of 999/42, that's an average of 23 maps per main area. I don't even remember how many areas the game even used, but it certainly wasn't 999. Even if the engine they were using didn't have said limitation, I don't really feel it's necessary to open the roof just because you can.

Sure it's not perfect and having more than 999 would be welcome... but I just feel like it really isn't necesary.
 

MajinSonic

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If the editor crashes with a maptree of 999+, oh my...
Layers...ok... There could be problems in some ways.
The Map tree shouldn't be a problem for a good-written engine.

So I guess the limit of 999 maps is still there, right?

@Vanilla Cheesecake
That's not an argument. If it's necessary to have more than 999 maps is the choice of the gamedeveloper. That's it.
 

Dalph

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Man, over 999 maps, in my book it equivals to "project never finished because overambitious".
I don't think I would ever be able to surpass that limit or even reach it (nowhere near), my current game is pretty long and it's not even 100 maps so far, lol.
 

The Stranger

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@MajinSonic There are other engines with weird limitations too. I used to use FPS Creator, and that had a 3GB (I think it was 3GB ) per map. You could remove the limit, but doing so and going over the limit often resulted in crashes when attempting to test play the map.
 

Dalph

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@MajinSonic
Good luck then, you are trying to make something beyond my capability and patience. I lose track easily when I reach 300-400 maps in a single project.
 

The Stranger

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@MajinSonic It's a similar limitation. 3GB (I think it may have been lower) is a really small amount when working with 3D objects, especially if you want detailed areas. Sometimes a single plant pot or chair would consume more data than a far larger object. I had to search for low definition objects to detail my areas. I think lighting also used up a lot of space too. It sucked if you wanted to create highly detailed environments, and wanted to tell stories using them.
 
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Shaz

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I talk about a list of mapnames xD
It is not "a list of map names". It is the contents of every one of those maps that has been opened in the editor, which includes the map properties, 6 layers of tiles (4 drawing layers, a shadow layer and a region layer), and every page of every event that's on that map. If you consider the maximum map size of 256x256 (which you probably also think is unnecessarily restrictive), that's up to 65,000+ events. If each event has 10 pages, that's 650,000+ pages (I'm not sure what the page limit is, but I know it's quite a bit higher than that). And I'm not aware of any limit in the length of those pages. If we say at least 100 lines, that's 65 million potential lines of commands for each map. Multiply that by your 1000 maps and that's an awful lot that needs to stay in memory at one time.

You might say nobody should have that many events on each map, but using the argument you yourself gave against limitations in the number of maps,

If it's necessary to have more than 999 maps is the choice of the gamedeveloper. That's it.
The engines need to be developed to cater to the majority. There is simply less ROI adding lots of stuff that fewer people will use. And the majority don't need that many maps.
 
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Ahuramazda

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When it came to the idea that a TON of maps are needed, you can always got the SNES route and compact maps to save space. This is an example of early on in my games development for what I mean if you have no idea.

Every house can have its own cutscenes, area name, music, ect with simple eventing and the game still runs smoothly even with all the extra stuff you cant see to the sides, plus spacing it out makes sure that no matter where you are on the indoor map, the character will always be centered and unable to view anything from the other houses by mistake.

Outside.png
Inside.png

And as a sub-note, the cave area in this map actually is dark with other smaller light sources using terrax lighting, and you would never know it was on the same map as the others are they are perfectly lit up using only 2 light sources not in the cave.
 

Lucy Fox

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The comparison with FF12 is like comparing apples to pears... a 3D Map is a completely different thing altogether than a 2D one (especially in RM) And that in so many ways I don't even want to start. xD

Not allowing for more than 999 Maps simply has no technical reason at all. If the engine can't handle it then because the limit is hardcoded into in. If the editor crashes... then because it can't handle something beyond this hardcoded limit... which ends with the fact, that the limit is artificial and therefore unnecessary.

It's like the limit of how many switches and variables we can have... there is no reason behind it. I guess those are thing that stem from times where such limit would make sense, performance-wise and also because of disk-space. But nowadays they are simply obsolete.

And there it doesn't matter if only 5% of users will ever need more than those. It's simply unnecessary and therefore... unnecessary xD

Multiply that by your 1000 maps and that's an awful lot that needs to stay in memory at one time.
Uhm... it does not have to stay in memory at all times... things like these should be handled dynamically and not... well, if that is really the case... I don't even know what to say anymore. xD (Just to make this clear. I'm not hating around. It would simply be utterly unbelievably stupid from a mere technical standpoint... and I don't know why anyone in their right mind would code the engine like that... )
 

Shaz

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Uhm... it does not have to stay in memory at all times...
The editor has to be capable of holding all of that at once, because there are no rules around how many maps can be created or opened in one sitting, or before the game is saved, or how often a developer saves, or how long they can create before they save.

However, my point was that it is not simply "a list of map names" and that maps do require quite a bit of memory.
 

Lucy Fox

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But... but... why? O___O
It would be enough to have in cache which Map is edited right now... and maybe the ones with unsaved changes or.... idk... but this makes just no sense at all... sorry. >w<
Eh, anyway... I won't be able to convince anyone to code things otherwise. But interesting to know how things are handled under the hood.
 

Vanilla Cheesecake

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The comparison with FF12 is like comparing apples to pears... a 3D Map is a completely different thing altogether than a 2D one (especially in RM) And that in so many ways I don't even want to start. xD
So? If anything, that should prove my point even more. The point is that no matter the dimensions, the platform, the engine, the developer, people rarely reach even anywhere as much even if the engine allows devs to go past the limit.

But anyway, I'm not gonna go around in circles with this lol. I know personally I can operate under a 999 map limit, almost to the point where I don't acknowledge it exists. If enough people are truly annoyed by it, I'm sure someone will find a way to extend it anyway (this is happened in past makers).
 
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Super stoked i just finished my first town in my project, by finished i mean i can always add more decorative aesthetics and the NPCs don't talk yet but the mapping is complete and all the important chess pieces are present!
My brain: Hey, I have an idea how to make the transition to the main story quest in The Wastes more natural!
Me: Good!
My brain: You need to remake the hotel you start out in, it's not realistic enough.
Me: Ok... This was unexpected, but I can do it.
My brain: Now make each hotel floor 5 times as large to match the main part. Oh, you also need to make a bunch of new npcs to fill in the space on these maps.
Me: Crap.
Should be able to release Haxe MV/MZ next weekend.
It look that somehow MZ tracks are messed up (for example battle4 is obviously a theme, castle2 is a ship, ship1 is a scene and so on..). Maybe they just named them after with some ambiguity.
is there a script call that return how much turn has passed in battle?

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