RPG Maker MZ, Preview #2: Graphics, Mapping, Eventing!

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Lucy Fox

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It's more like you don't need as much maps in 3D than you might need in 2D... because of the way how things are handled... but that's mega technical...
It's like with Skyrim... the whole overworld is one single "Map"
But it's divided with a grid, like you would see in the RM Editor... at a time only 3 or so of those cells are loaded around the character (in RAM and CPU/GPU) and everything else isn't rendered or calculated. Therefore doesn't need any resources. This allows for the whole thing to exist in a single "Map"

You couldn't do this in RM... it wouldn't be possible... at all... So this is why it's like apples and pears. :3

It also doesn't eliminate the point that the limit (no matter if many people reach it or not) is simply useless and, apparently, only exists because of technical reasons that are as unnecessary.

But... anyway... That's just my inner Mr. Spock speaking. Go on. I'm not even here. :kaoswt:
 

Shaz

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This is actually what happens when playing the game. Only the immediate area around the player is rendered.

Just harder to do in the editor, because you're not limited in what maps you can open and edit at any point in time.
 

Kes

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Someone has to say the obvious. In this instance, let it be me.

I'll begin by way of analogy. No car can meet all needs/desires. A car sturdy enough to tackle difficult off-road terrain is not going to of use to someone who wants a nippy urban runabout, which in turn is no good to someone who wants a flash sports car, nor the person who needs a family sized estate car. You pick the car that meets your needs. Similarly, if MZ cannot meet your needs, pick an engine which can.
 

chalkdust

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Why not?
This is the main feature that i wanted for years!
This is a very sad news for me, i don't want to stick with 48x48 or use external programas to maker 16x16 or 32x32, i don't want to upscale my assets or use a plugin that renders only inside the game, i wanted to have all these features in the editor.
Sigh*
Same here. I'd really like to come back to RM for my next project, but can't do it if 16x16 isn't conveniently available :(

I regularly edit my tiles while building the game, so maintaining a separate set of upscaled graphics in 48x48 would be a nightmare. I'd spend half my time trying to make sure the upscaled stuff matches the originals. It doesn't need to allow "any" tilesize, but the editor should at least be able to use 32x32 from past RM engines, and 16x16 (simple 3x...). It should be easy to add the options to the systems tab. Having just those 2 alternate sizes built in would cover 99% of people who want a different size. Could be a HUGE ROI when you think about how many more devs that'll pull in.

I disagree, they wouldn't need to provide assets for every size, you can make your own, purchase older RPGmakers, or buy it from their or other stores.
And no, its not that simple with a plugin, with plugins, you need at least two versions of your tiles, one for in editor mapping and one for ingame display. I used to have a plugin in MV to change the size to 32x32 and it was a pain.
O. M. G. I literally fell out of my seat.

I agree with the point, but whew.... that's some comedy gold there. :)
 
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AfroditeOhki

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On the subject of "can't please every one person's specific desires", I'd SCREM in joy if RM had native support to DragonBones and an in-editor version of the functionality of Grid-Free Doodads.

But? I know that's ME, that's specific, and I can't just go "ooooh why didn't you do that, that's what I wanted :(". Because they're a company with a product and they have to go by what would be more valuable in large scale.

So... I'll just wait patiently in my seat for someone to port DragonBones plugin and Grid-Free Doodads to MZ, and by then I'll hope that someone will have made some neat way to port a MV project to MZ, because I know that will be quite a while for me to just sit around waiting instead of working on my project. Because, unless I'm willing to pay for corporation-sized expenses of introducing to a piece of software the specific features that I specifically personally want, I have to understand that that's just how things go.
 

Anyone

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Someone has to say the obvious. In this instance, let it be me.

I'll begin by way of analogy. No car can meet all needs/desires. A car sturdy enough to tackle difficult off-road terrain is not going to of use to someone who wants a nippy urban runabout, which in turn is no good to someone who wants a flash sports car, nor the person who needs a family sized estate car. You pick the car that meets your needs. Similarly, if MZ cannot meet your needs, pick an engine which can.
True, but also what I fear.

MZ has welcome new additions, but nothing is groundbreaking (so far. I'm holding onto the hope that there's gonna be something still unannounced that'll wow me, or that the new code base will do so). You can skip some ease-of-use features and still use MVand its plugin pool. There's so far no new stuff to manage big asset bases (sub folders & search function for the the asset browsers) or the ability to modify the editor itself via plugins, so that the user base can provide those sort of features (without having to jump through plugin limitation hoops).

Even art-wise, MZ doesn't cater to the taller-body crowd (for the first time since XP) but remains focused on the chibi fans. And that's fine for people who like that, but it also means that people who don't won't necessarily find something drawing them to RMZ.

And as you correctly put it, there are by now so many makers, they can just stay at one of the older ones, with much more art assets, plugins or ruby code, etc.

But that also means that the community gets partly split up every time a new RPG maker comes along. A lot of people might stay at MV, and those won't make plugins or sprites or other assets for the MZ community.
And I have to wonder: at what point is the community going to be stretched out across so many different makers, that the plugins & art produced and provided by the community is no longer enough to give a new maker the kind of impulse it needs to be viable for advanced users?

If I look at all the amazing plugins I'm using in MZ, the one thing most of the have in common? The plugin authors aren't around anymore. :/
 
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Parallax Panda

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I don’t buy the ”they would HAVE to include new RTP for ALL sizes if they gave more tile size options” argument. That’s incredibly simple thinking to assume that there would be no way this could be done otherwise. For example, placing the alternative tile size option under ”advanced settings” would be one way. They could even add in a disclaimer if they wanted to.

Would some idiots still complain about not getting RTP for every possible tile size? Surely. But I’m quite sure they have more people complaining about multiple tile sizes not being a thing currently. Personally, even if they just supported 48x48 and the previous standard of 32x32, that would still be a huge improvement.

That being said. Since I'm cynical, so here's what I think is really going on. *puts on folio hat*

I believe the reason they leave out certain highly sought after features, despite some of them not being unreasonable or that complex, is partly strategical. RM is a "pay once, then maybe buy some DLC" kinda engine which mean that unlike other engines that constantly gets income from royalty fees KADOKAWA needs to regularly pump out brand new engines. while other engines like Unity can be regularly updated and polished to be the best it can be. From a straight business perspective though, it wouldn't make sense to create "the ultimate RM" since then there would be little need to buy the next version.

While budgeting might also be involved, I actually believe KADOKAWA always puts aside certain features to be "saved" for the next version, even if they could've implemented them in the current engine. Because it's in their interest to do so.
As a side note. KADOKAWA is a Japanese business and it's my biased opinion that most business here are "sneaky" as hell when it comes to business practices. Of course I'm generalizing but if you'd ever have worked here, you'd know what I mean. That's not an attack on anyone working at KADOKAWA (or any other Japanese office for that matter). I just think the general business/work culture has a special kind of rot to it in this country...

But oh man, now I'm rambling! :kaoswt2:

My point anyway, is that maybe the next engine after MZ (or maybe even the next one after that) will have multiple tile sizes. In fact, I'm convinced it's something they'll add eventually. They just don't want to do it yet for whatever reason.

Well, that's my 2 cynical cents~! I too find arbitrary limits to the number of maps, map sizes, tile sets and tile sizes unpractical and hard to defend. but it is what it is. MZ still looks like it'll be the best version of RM up until now so overall it's still an improvement.
 

nio kasgami

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Oh boi now we fall in the conspiract theory.

Tbh yojima just have a VERY specific vision of rpg maker. Dont forget he refused the variable checking for events condition (proposed by archeia) because for him he doesnt see the "need".

So saying that as a "oh they are shadey and sneaky " is blatlantly stupid.

Its just the creator have a vision of how to do his software.
 

Dark_Ansem

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I think he answered both Battler-related questions, did you ask something else in another post?
I asked about whether now animations allow us to specify WHEN multi hits occur, rather than having them clumped at the end.
 

SJWebster

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"Oh hey, a new RPG Maker! Maybe I should crack MV back out?" "Oh wow, I forgot how fun this can be!" "MZ's features sound great! I'll probably buy it when it's out." "Damn, I've really missed this. Why did I stop engaging with the community and fall away from the hobby again?"

*Sees recent posts in this thread.* "Oh yeah, that's why."

Some of the recent debate serves to remind me that RPG Maker is an entry level tool and that attracts an audience that largely lacks experience and / or formal training in design and project management who don't have the skills / budget to create their own assets (graphics, music, plugins, etc).

RPG Maker is a tool, and one of many options. It's a mass market product that aims to sell as many copies as possible by casting the net widely and being easy to use. The chances that such an engine is going to meet your specific needs are extremely small. Its features and limits are something you have to work with and lean into.

Yeah, making 16x16 or 24x24 tiles and then doing a 3x / 2x Nearest Neighbour to get them to fit MZ's 48x48 grid isn't ideal. It does bloat file sizes, it does add an extra step, it does mean scaling them back down to edit them, it is inconvenient, but it *is* a viable workaround and a compromise you make for the ease-of-use of everything else and not having to code your own battle system, dialogue system, etc.

You want something where you can really tinker down to the granular finer details? There are plenty of engines with much steeper learning curves that let you do that. Some of them are even free! The convenience, low barrier to entry, and user experience of a what-you-see-is-what-you-get engine like RPG Maker is the main attraction and selling point.

To bluntly cut through the immature, childish, entitled, ignorant, and selfish attitudes of far too many of you, Degica are showing you what MZ can offer, they are presenting it as an option. At no point are you obligated to purchase and use it. You don't like it? You can't work with it? Find something else. In the meantime, the rest of us will make a measured decision, play to the strengths of our chosen engines, and make some awesome games.
 

slimmmeiske2

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Getting some real déjà vu vibes. Feels like I'm back in 2015 and everyone's panicking about the new engine in town.

@Anyone you mixed up MZ and MV a couple of times in your post. It was still readable, but just so you know. ;)
But that also means that the community gets partly split up every time a new RPG maker comes along. A lot of people might stay at MV, and those won't make plugins or sprites or other assets for the MZ community.
Yes, the same happened when MV came out. A lot of people didn't move to MV for quite some time and yet MV still had a lot of resources and plugins. The same will happen with MZ. I've seen some plugin writers and resource artists excited at making plugins and resources for MZ. I myself am also looking forward to messing with the RTP, even though I'll stick to XP for some of my game projects.
 

M.I.A.

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I once bought a Drill and it came with a set of Drill Bits. Lots of Bits. Flat Bits, Star Bits, Phillips Bits.. of varying sizes for a multitude of purposes. It was a real deal. Especially since it included a free battery.

I later went on to construct a chicken coop, and realized that a Twist Bit wasn't included. So I complained about it on the internet. How dare they not meet all my very specific needs? Didn't DeWalt know I was going to need that for my project? Just kidding. I went to the store and bought the one very specific thing I needed, and completed my project just fine.
 

nio kasgami

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Getting some real déjà vu vibes. Feels like I'm back in 2015 and everyone's panicking about the new engine in town.

@Anyone you mixed up MZ and MV a couple of times in your post. It was still readable, but just so you know. ;)

Yes, the same happened when MV came out. A lot of people didn't move to MV for quite some time and yet MV still had a lot of resources and plugins. The same will happen with MZ. I've seen some plugin writers and resource artists excited at making plugins and resources for MZ. I myself am also looking forward to messing with the RTP, even though I'll stick to XP for some of my game projects.

Yeah i an super excited for developping plugin and just feel to go grabby on the code base haha.
 

Dalph

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Meh, I don't care about adjustable grid and all that bs, all of this is just pointless whining, if a plugin can add that feature then so be it, we can't have everything plug and play.
Game development is not a joke or a cakewalk, for many it's a full time job and requires effort and dedication.
RM can make it easier to make a game but it cannot make a game for us by itself, without us putting real effort.
RM cannot have countless features, what we are given should be enough to cover up all the basic needs and make a decent enough JRPG, it's the developer that has to tweak the engine to reach his dream game vision.

I think people should just stop with the "this feature should have been inbuilt by default", seriously it's getting tiring, repetitive, old and boring.
 

Knightmare

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As far as the limitation talk there are creative ways to get around these "limits" where they are really a non-issue. @Ahuramazda explained with pictures the workaround for map number limits. You can inlcude several different maps on one map.

In one of my projects I have a bustling town of a 200 x 200 map size, the town is huge and I included all the shops and houses on the same map but just out of the way so you can't see any of them when you are exploring the town and the . I basically have 14 maps but only used 1 map to put it all in.

In my current project, it is shaping up to be a 40 hour game and will only use an estimated 110 maps, 300 switches, 60 variables, 400 skills, 250 items, 180 weapons, 300 armors and the game has a lot of different options, puzzles, etc. I have reached nowhere near the limits. All in all there are creative ways to get around the limits. If you use all the 250 x 250 map space all the time then you probably have maps that are too "spacious" and a lot of dead space and those maps can be tightened a bit. So it's probably more of a mapping design flaw than an engine flaw.

I kind of agree with @Parallax Panda take on KADOKAWA business strategy, although I wouldn't call it shady or anything, it's a smart business strategy actually. I won't get into it too much but when one looks at all the RPG Makers and what they brought forth and what the next makers did and didn't do you'll notice a pattern of 2 steps forward, 1 step back, much of the time. Include shiny new features, take away one feature from previous maker that was in, next maker or two later add it back in, revamp and repeat.

I don't mind this because overall everything is a net positive going forward and they are not "screwing" us, if they were they wouldn't be successful. One could argue that XP to VX was a step down but beyond that 2003 was better than 2000, XP was better than 2003 (to most people, not all), VX Ace was overall better than XP, MV was better than VX Ace (although not by much imo), and MZ will likely be better and is shaping up to be better than all previous makers. Overall a solid business strategy that still keeps the user in mind.
 

MikePjr

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~_~ Ugh.. i swore i wouldn't comment again.. cause.. i know it won't go well..
But i really don't agree with some of the things being said here...
I'm assuming it's a different team working on RMMZ than Pixel Game Maker but both are from Kadokawa.
Pixel Game Maker has literally no layer limit.. they leave it up to the one's making a game.
If the one making a game's PC can handle it, they only need display the suggested PC specs for anyone who plays said game make in Pixel Game Maker.
That said.. 4 layers IS enough for an RPG..
Pixel Game Maker also has tile size options.. again.. i do realize that both engines are more than likely from different dev teams..
But do these teams not talk with each other?
Neither engine is competing with the other engine.. i wanna say this first and foremost.. one is for action games, one is for menu driven RPGs
They also do not provide assets for every tile size or resolution in PGM.
It's left to the community.
I've even seen people making assets and selling them for folks to use, and folks use said assets in PGM.
I honestly figure that if anything, them including the option for tile sizes but not the assets, would just create a market for asset creators to make money..
I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here.. but it's just.. i'm trying to figure this out cause i don't think the reasons given add up.
That said, I do have a theory though as to why one engine supports things the other doesn't, and it has NOTHING to do with crashes or what have you.. i think it's something a little different

I think the reason we can't get those features, is because MZ is kind of still based on what MV was.. it's using similar software under the hood.. like pixi and such.. even if some things were re-written.. i think it's still mostly based on MV, and in order to add the features suggested.. it would probably require an entirely new backbone/engine/software.. what have you, than what came before.

They'd basically have to start over and make something new, and that would not be cost effective.
They are a buisness after all.
So.. hopefully the next RPG Maker will have more things figured out in the next... geez.. 5 6 years?

Forgive me if i don't come back and reply to any quotes or replies to my post.. i just wanted to get that all out... i'm gonna slink back into the shadows now..
 

Dalph

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@MikePjr
You have your opinion and I respect that.
Although I have to say this and don't take it as an offense.
Why not just reply and discuss politely instead of hiding in the shadows?
We are "mostly' all civil people here, this is one of the nicest communities I know, if you can't even handle the people here then I'm sorry to say but the internet is not for you, my friend.
 

metronome

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My first reaction was: "huh? another engine already? MV was just out a while ago! what were they thinking??".

And then I realized that MV was released on 2015 and then reality sets in

me: "what the hell-........geez.....5 years already?"
 

Anyone

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Getting some real déjà vu vibes. Feels like I'm back in 2015 and everyone's panicking about the new engine in town.

@Anyone you mixed up MZ and MV a couple of times in your post. It was still readable, but just so you know. ;)

Yes, the same happened when MV came out. A lot of people didn't move to MV for quite some time and yet MV still had a lot of resources and plugins. The same will happen with MZ. I've seen some plugin writers and resource artists excited at making plugins and resources for MZ. I myself am also looking forward to messing with the RTP, even though I'll stick to XP for some of my game projects.
Thanks, I think I've fixed it (found only one instance, though?)
But yeah, MV and MZ can end up mixed surprisingly easy, sorry.

Well, I hope you're right. Updated code and ease of use plus everything we have for MV would be very welcome.
In this instance, I'd welcome to be proven thoroughly wrong.

To bluntly cut through the immature, childish, entitled, ignorant, and selfish attitudes of far too many of you, Degica are showing you what MZ can offer, they are presenting it as an option. At no point are you obligated to purchase and use it. You don't like it? You can't work with it? Find something else. In the meantime, the rest of us will make a measured decision, play to the strengths of our chosen engines, and make some awesome games.
I get your point, but I think such broad and aggressive comments don't do the discussion justice.

There's a point to be had about native tileset size support in editor. Because while you can modify the tileset size ingame via plugins, what you can't do is have those tilesets be displayed correctly in MV or MZ in the editor, so what you see in your editor will never match what you have ingame and you need to work around that.

I personally am unaffected by tilesize, since I'll keep using 48, I still think using that sort of aggressive language that turns a discussion into a broad personal attack of those disagreeing is not helpful.
 

Knightmare

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My first reaction was: "huh? another engine already? MV was just out a while ago! what were they thinking??".

And then I realized that MV was released on 2015 and then reality sets in

me: "what the hell-........geez.....5 years already?"
I laughed because I thought almost the exact thing verbatim! Then I was like...wait my game was supposed to be done 3 years ago and it's only halfway done!
 
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Looking at some classic RPG maps for inspiration... even Chip's Challenge maps for dungeons. It seems like towns might be more challenging on the visual side...

Upcoming boss. Messing around with the tint as it's in a drained sewer system.
Okay... This was an important decision. What to say. Happy autumn. :)

It seems opening MZ with the executable doesn't register it in steam. So on my steam account, it says I only used MZ for 5 hours lol.
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