RPG Maker MZ, Preview #2: Graphics, Mapping, Eventing!

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JosephSeraph

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I also agree that multiple tile-sizes, or especially user-generated tile size, would have been an insane leap forward and is sorely missed. But there are several reasons why that's rather unfeasible, and they all have been stated in this thread. I think the workflow from TileD to RM is rather cumbersome, but that's life, as long as the end product is good that's good.

MZ already took plenty of risks. Elfkisser was a surprising leap forward. The larger budget for RTP artwork. The improved mapping system. Event previews. So much more. It's a far bigger leap than VX to VXA and that leap was surprisingly big already, although y'all might not remember it or be misled due to the name.
MZ probably is bringing us the most firsts since the leap from 2k3 to XP I think?

I'm very excited for MZ. And as for multiple tile sizes, hopefully that'll be a thing 5 years from now, after all of us have fully absorbed MZ's new changes. Savor the moment y'all chile
 

metronome

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...wait my game was supposed to be done 3 years ago and it's only halfway done!
whoops! that last part! yea yea yea, that game we were supposed to finish like 3 years ago?? >.<.........MZ is another painful remainder for that.

if MZ is out soon, that will be bad! you know.....I will want to jump to that engine and then repeat these same process. Who knows what will happen another 5 years when another engine is announced...? (scary thought)
 

jonthefox

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Eh, I think the problem is not with the opinion itself, but rather the delivery. It's not cool to have a negative attitude, but the whole point of discussion forums is to discuss - to put in your feedback as a member of the rpgm community - if the community cares about the option for different tile sizes, perhaps that'll be in the next maker - after all, all the talk of wanting layers presumably played a big part in getting us this in MZ.

TLDR; there's an important difference between "You didn't give us the option of different tile sizes? Why not, what's wrong with you??" and "Aw man, I'd really love the option of different tile sizes, but these other features look great too - perhaps that can be revisited down the line with a plugin or the next rpgmaker I'd hope."
 

Touchfuzzy

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Honestly there will be an explosion of people working on MZ stuff once it releases.

The first few months are always when the most resources and plugins are made. People are excited. A lot of artists and coders want to "make their name" in the scene so will try to do a lot of heavily requested stuff quickly.

The fear that it is going to be a long time before there are plugins for X or Y I find is not my experience with RM. I predict by the 3rd or 4th month, most major systems will be created, and most of what is left are going to be niche things.

Now you might need that niche thing for your project, but in general, most major stuff will be covered.

And as I said when I answered the question on multiple tile sizes: I would have liked to see it too. It was in the list of suggestions we made from EN side. It didn't make it in. A lot of the reasons are technical as well as scope related. Not every feature we want is ever going to make it in, because the more that is shoved into the core, the more complicated the core becomes.
 

WesdrasLink

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In regard about the grid size change.
There is no need to provide RTP for small grid sizes or bigger, just provide the 48x48 for default, but give us the freedom to chose the grid size that we want. The resources? There are a lot in the internet, and people can make they own resources.
Just give us the freedom o choice, it's better to have the adjustable grid than stick with a mandatory number.
A lot of other engines do this and they don't provide resources to that.

But i find this discussion fruitless now, i don't think they will add this in the RPG Maker MZ, now think about this: How much would cost this new RPG Maker MV without RTP but with the option to change the grid in editor?
 

MushroomCake28

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But i find this discussion fruitless now, i don't think they will add this in the RPG Maker MZ, now think about this: How much would cost this new RPG Maker MV without RTP but with the option to change the grid in editor?
The point isn't the cost, it's the target audience. RPG Maker is mainly targeted at hobbyists who can use it as an all-in one tool that doesn't need external resources. It's only logical to not add a feature that people can't use with only the default resources.
 

Sharm

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That statement has been such a problem child. Everyone has huge opinions on what both ends of the spectrum should mean, and there's no consensus except that RPG Maker doesn't fit their definition. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say by bringing it up, Joseph. Are you saying that there is a need so it fits the simple enough for a child, or that there's not because it's powerful enough for a developer?

My personal opinion is that 48x48 tiles are an awful size that doesn't make a lot of sense, but having the ability to work around it makes it tolerable. An option to make other grid sizes would be great. Unfortunately, this is a Japanese product that they're porting over here, it's never going to be made with a western market as the goal. Things that we care a lot about like the side view battling option, are hard won victories from the western staff, and I expect getting tile size options would be just as difficult. Those things just aren't as important to the Japanese audience.

As for the question about the need for RTP options for all available sizes, my opinion is that it'd be a headache for them either way. From the perspective of the users here, not offering other RTP for those doesn't seem like a big deal, but the people who frequent the forums isn't actually a large portion of the userbase. We're a cut above what the common user is like, if only because we've been around long enough to have picked up on a few things. But having worked the other end just as a moderator and resource creator, I can tell you that the number of people who don't understand simple things, like why the DLC tilesets don't automatically load into the game, or that empty portions of a tileset doesn't mean resources are missing, is STAGGERING. There absolutely WOULD be an uproar if other tile size options didn't have premade assets. It just wouldn't necessarily be an uproar here.
 

JosephSeraph

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They have no precedent of "implementing options" without the assets to make use of it and Archeia has already been descriptive about that in this thread, citing track record such as VXA's resolution cap.
That's how they operate. It has upsides and downsides.

So that's what I'm saying. They wouldn't add "just an option" without it being a major feature to fanfare about (it is) and without having the resources and budget to back it up.


edit:
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say by bringing it up, Joseph.
There, you commented while I was posting my own comment. But I summed up. I didn't feel the need to go on about it because it's beating around a dead, dead bush at this point.


edit2: To contextualize further with Sharm's reply to my comment: Implementing a major feature (very expensive, very time consuming, very support-heavy and potentially user-alienating) without making sure it is Simple Enough For A Child is not a move they do very often if at all. And that, of course, means implementing resolution options needs the assets to back it up, or else it's not Simple Enough For A Child.

I like that approach. It's made for a software that's buttery smooth to use, learn and extend. More complex stuff sometimes gets a bit more complicated because of it. But that's a noble price to pay.
 
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Anyone

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There's still this one left:

(Unless you come from the future, in which case ignore me :p)
I'll just leave it there to keep you guessing. ;)

Honestly there will be an explosion of people working on MZ stuff once it releases.

The first few months are always when the most resources and plugins are made. People are excited. A lot of artists and coders want to "make their name" in the scene so will try to do a lot of heavily requested stuff quickly.

The fear that it is going to be a long time before there are plugins for X or Y I find is not my experience with RM. I predict by the 3rd or 4th month, most major systems will be created, and most of what is left are going to be niche things.

Now you might need that niche thing for your project, but in general, most major stuff will be covered.
Your word in the plugin devs ear. (Did you hear that future lighting plugin developer? I'd like one improved khas lighting system please, event & image based with a bit of regional lighting on top.) :D
 

Lion Blade Soler

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And as I said when I answered the question on multiple tile sizes: I would have liked to see it too. It was in the list of suggestions we made from EN side. It didn't make it in. A lot of the reasons are technical as well as scope related. Not every feature we want is ever going to make it in, because the more that is shoved into the core, the more complicated the core becomes.
Touchfuzzy is right! From a technical standpoint, it wouldn't be feasible to make RPG Maker with its current structure and program code flexible enough to accept tilesets of different sizes. The RPG Maker program is a different creature from other game engines/game design programs (including the ones from Kadokawa), so even if the core tilesets were done in the 96x96 format for MZ and MZ was given the ability to downscale the tilesets into the 16x16, 24x24, 32x32, and 48x48 formats (the four formats that could work with the 96x96 format) as well as the ability to accept the tilesets in one of the four aforementioned sizes, it's not known how well RPG Maker MZ would work with the ability to handle tilesets of varying sizes without having issues due to its current program code not being designed for accepting multiple tileset sizes. Not to mention, MZ would need a similar functionality for sprites as sprites of a specific size format will only work well with the tileset of the same size format (sprites of the 48x48 format will not work with tilesets of the 32x32 format). Plus, as MushroomCake28 pointed, the RPG Maker programs were originally designed for hobbyists and JRPG fans. Granted, the RPG Maker programs from XP to MZ can be used as professional game design programs and they are flexible enough for that (especially in comparison to the console RPG Maker programs), but that still doesn't change that the primary target audience for those programs are the hobbyists, so simplicity and accessibility are keys to attracting that target audience.

I'll admit that I was one of the ones that was hoping for the ability to use multiple tileset sizes, but that's only because I wanted to use the XP tilesets (after modifying them) on MZ. If either the XP tilesets were in 16x16/24x24 format or MV used 32x32/64x64 format instead of the 48x48 format, then I wouldn't even be worried about whether MZ had the ability to accept tilesets of different sizes or not as that wouldn't be an issue to me. Having said all that, the main reason for why I'm not currently trying to convert the XP tilesets into the MV/MZ tilesets is because I noticed that most other graphics from XP and VX Ace were converted into the MV format and were/are being sold as a DLC, and if Kadokawa decides to do the same thing for the XP and VX Ace tilesets, then I may end up feeling like that I did all the work on tileset conversion for nothing. I actually did try to convert the XP tilesets into the MV tileset format, and during the process, I realized that even resizing the tilesets wouldn't be enough as some of the tiles within the XP tilesets (like the doll and the Teddy bear) didn't look well and would need to be reworked. With the possibility of Kadokawa converting the XP tilesets for MV/MZ, I decided to put a hold on converting the XP tilesets as converting the tilesets would take time away from other things that I have to work on.
 
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chalkdust

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Touchfuzzy is right! From a technical standpoint, it wouldn't be feasible to make RPG Maker with its current structure and program code flexible enough to accept tilesets of different sizes.
See, that's not even remotely close to true. Unless their code is a pile of spaghetti (and I don't think it is), it's a trivially easy thing to do. It would take mere minutes to swap the magic number 48 with a tilesize variable and add an Advanced Settings option to toggle the variable between 16/32/48. Probably a few other small tweaks, but nothing technically difficult. This wouldn't increase game filesize or impact performance whatsoever. Literally the one single sole barrier is the chosen "scope" preference of the publisher, which I don't really understand because the ROI seems favorable and profitable imho.

Sure, it can be done with a plugin, but there are enormous workflow inconveniences that are simply too burdensome. I would rather write an entire engine myself (like my current project) than spend a huge chunk of my dev time juggling two different sets of art.

WHAT THIS ISSUE REALLY NEEDS
Using a tilesize plugin would be more convenient with a simple workaround: somebody should just make a desktop app that can keep the two art folders synced. (For instance, automatically copying any changes in my 16x16 folder, upscaling and saving into my 48x48 folder.) If I come back for MZ, I'll either brush up on Visual Studio and make it myself or pay a buddy to throw it together for me. Maybe there's already one, idk. ::shrug::
 

Sharm

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I think it's funny how people are arguing about if switching tile sizes is easy in the engine's code or not but no one has ever once talked about how a tile size of 48x48 pixels takes up the same memory space as a 64x64 tile due to the way memory works.

My point is, it doesn't really matter if it's easy, it matters if we can convince Japanese people who don't care much about the western market that this change would make them enough money to overcome their local bias. *shrugs*
 

JosephSeraph

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Using a tilesize plugin would be more convenient with a simple workaround: somebody should just make a desktop app that can keep the two art folders synced. (For instance, automatically copying any changes in my 16x16 folder, upscaling and saving into my 48x48 folder.) If I come back for MZ, I'll either brush up on Visual Studio and make it myself or pay a buddy to throw it together for me. Maybe there's already one, idk. ::shrug::
DAMN that's a good solution. Someone make this and release it as an official tool together with Sakan / Gene / etc for this generation lol
 

MushroomCake28

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It's not a technical issue, it's marketing issue imo. If I was the head of the department over there, I would've made the same decision. It all boils down to market positioning and the target audience.
 
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Hopefully this gets fixed before release..
Where's this sudden heatwave come from? It's not even sunny, it's just hot. Hate it!
I'm slightly disappointed that the MZ codebase still uses core.js, managers.js, objects.js, scenes.js, sprites.js and windows.js instead of core/Bitmap.js, core/Graphics.js, managers/AudioManager.js, managers/DataManager.js, etc...
just a few more hours until the toughest, most pressure 72 hours of my life, wish me luck guys

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