RPG Maker MZ, Preview #2: Graphics, Mapping, Eventing!

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Regarding the "workaround" : "Photofiltre" can do something close to that (with its automatisation option) : select a folder, apply a transformation of each picture located inside and save them somewhere else. I do that for MV because my tiles are 16x16.

Ps : sorry the link is in French but the software comes with various languages.
 
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Mimironi

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I'm veeery excited to see more (as usual) and I'm happy with the stuff that's been revealed so far... but most importantly...

MEGANE RALPH
:vxmegane:
MEGANE RALPH

(and on the topic of tileset size, I've never really mind the tile size much, personally. Though my opinion isn't the most valid, since I either use premade tilesets or make "parallax mapping/pixel movement" maps on my own...)
 

Htlaets

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Something I'm wondering about, if you can answer: does the textbox cut-off line adjust properly with resolution now that it's a database level feature? One of the more annoying things to deal with in MV was to figure out exactly where the cut-off was for a textbox because the line was drawn with the base resolution and aspect ratio in mind.

And jumping from that, does the preview adjust properly as well?

On the subject of "can't please every one person's specific desires", I'd SCREM in joy if RM had native support to DragonBones and an in-editor version of the functionality of Grid-Free Doodads.

But? I know that's ME, that's specific, and I can't just go "ooooh why didn't you do that, that's what I wanted :(". Because they're a company with a product and they have to go by what would be more valuable in large scale.

So... I'll just wait patiently in my seat for someone to port DragonBones plugin and Grid-Free Doodads to MZ, and by then I'll hope that someone will have made some neat way to port a MV project to MZ, because I know that will be quite a while for me to just sit around waiting instead of working on my project. Because, unless I'm willing to pay for corporation-sized expenses of introducing to a piece of software the specific features that I specifically personally want, I have to understand that that's just how things go.
For dragonbones I feel like that's something they'll probably pack into a future version of RM. Why? Half the features shown so far are things commonly implemented by the community in MV and below.

Resolution adjustment? Been there for a long time.

Name tags? Scripted/plug-ined in for a long, long time now.

ATB? Implemented via tons of plug-ins in the past.

Character gen with part offset, potentially with part layering and easy part import? @Schlangan 's extended generator already does that.

Tile layering? The tiled editor does this.

Now, don't get me wrong, it's wonderful that this is all being implemented and these things being coded in at a high level makes life so much easier, but all of these things have been shown to be reasonably popular, and dragonbones is quickly meeting that threshold of popularity to be implemented.

If I sound frustrated about those features being followers, I am but not to a huge extent. It's better that they do it late than never.

The biggest annoyance I have with the new engine features is really that the default resolution is still going to be 4:3.
 
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beliziam

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@Archeia @Touchfuzzy Will the "change tile size" Plugin be included in the release version of MZ as it was in MV ?
 

JosephSeraph

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Regarding the "workaround" : "Photofiltre" can do something close to that (with its automatisation option) : select a folder, apply a transformation of each picture located inside and save them somewhere else. I do that for MV because my tiles are 16x16.
I'm crying... I owe you my soul.... U can do whatever you want with the entirety of my existance (my essence is easily converted in food or neon paint so these are very efficient conversion targets)


you have NO idea how much asset pack making time you just saved if this dows what i think it does
like
i literally spend A WHOLE WEEK or sometimes WEEKS resizing every monster from my asset packs to fit with each of the target resolutions and still be easily swappable mid-battle.... and that all can now become a button press

i'll test it out. if it really works. i just have no words for how i feel right now. omg. All the time i've spent and wasted on mechanical, fruitless labor....

:rtear:
 
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chalkdust

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I'm crying... I owe you my soul.... U can do whatever you want with the entirety of my existance (my essence is easily converted in food or neon paint so these are very efficient conversion targets)

you have NO idea how much asset pack making time you just saved if this dows what i think it does
like
i literally spend A WHOLE WEEK or sometimes WEEKS resizing every monster from my asset packs to fit with each of the target resolutions and still be easily swappable mid-battle.... and that all can now become a button press

i'll test it out. if it really works. i just have no words for how i feel right now. omg. All the time i've spent and wasted on mechanical, fruitless labor....
I feel your pain. I really wish the idea had occurred to me sooner, but I only thought about it because I recently had the pleasure of working with another dev on some similar conversion tools. Don't get me wrong, the plugin is awesome and works perfectly for people sticking with default assets from past makers. Setup is easy enough, maintenance just gets so unbearable when doing your own edits throughout the whole development. I'm working with my own edits of 16x16 Time Fantasy and I'd pull my hair out trying to consistently keep the folders synced manually.

But now... yeah, tilesize should be a trivial non-issue with the right tool to supplement the plugin.
 

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Sharm

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I've been using the one posted in the utilities section, but it looks like this one has a few more options. I did a lot of one at a time resizing myself too, before I found it, and I've been trying to make others aware, but it's a bit tricky. There's a lot of really good stuff on the forums that's gotten buried over time.
 

Lion Blade Soler

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See, that's not even remotely close to true. Unless their code is a pile of spaghetti (and I don't think it is), it's a trivially easy thing to do. It would take mere minutes to swap the magic number 48 with a tilesize variable and add an Advanced Settings option to toggle the variable between 16/32/48. Probably a few other small tweaks, but nothing technically difficult. This wouldn't increase game filesize or impact performance whatsoever. Literally the one single sole barrier is the chosen "scope" preference of the publisher, which I don't really understand because the ROI seems favorable and profitable imho.

Sure, it can be done with a plugin, but there are enormous workflow inconveniences that are simply too burdensome. I would rather write an entire engine myself (like my current project) than spend a huge chunk of my dev time juggling two different sets of art.

WHAT THIS ISSUE REALLY NEEDS
Using a tilesize plugin would be more convenient with a simple workaround: somebody should just make a desktop app that can keep the two art folders synced. (For instance, automatically copying any changes in my 16x16 folder, upscaling and saving into my 48x48 folder.) If I come back for MZ, I'll either brush up on Visual Studio and make it myself or pay a buddy to throw it together for me. Maybe there's already one, idk. ::shrug::
Despite being an artist first, I am still programmer third and have an understanding of how program codes work as I studied C++ before and managed to understand Ruby, C#, and Javascript as a result. From what I can tell by looking at the scripts from XP through MV (especially MV), the only way for a RPG Maker program to be able to use tilesets of different sizes without running into any problem is by the RPG Maker program to be completely rebuilt and restructured from the ground up, and as I pointed out on my earlier comment, the sprites must be treated the same as the tilesets as the sprite size must match the tileset size. After all, you can't have a 48x48 sprite walking through a town created by a 32x32 tileset sheet. Furthermore, you can't use the plugin argument to justify or prove a point about tileset resizing, either, because you can't upscale a 32x32 tile into a 48x48 without getting any pixel distortion as 48 is perfectly divisible to 16 (3) and to 24 (2) but not to 32 (1.5). In other words, even with plugins that can upscale graphics (which I believe there are couple of those), there's no guarantee that the graphics will look good as they may end up getting pixel distortion. Trying to upscale a 32x32 tileset sheet into a 96x96 tileset sheet and shrink that 96x96 tileset sheet into a 48x48 tileset sheet will not work, either, as I tried to do that with the XP tileset sheets and the results were not pretty. In order for a tileset sheet to perfectly convert into a detailed tileset sheet of the size format of 16x16, 24x24, 32x32, or 48x48, the initial size format of the tileset has to be 96x96 (or 192x192 if you want to include 64x64 into the mix).

Truth be told, I believe that we and others wouldn't even be talking about the idea of any RPG Maker program having the ability to resize tileset sheets and sprite sheets if MV initially supported either the 32x32 size format or the 64x64 size format for those sheets. In my opinion, the 48x48 size format (which is also supported by MZ) is inconvenient for tileset/sprite conversion unless the initial size file of the graphic sheet is 16x16, 24x24, 96x96, or 192x192 (the first two are for upscale and the latter two are for downscale). However, the default tileset sheets from MZ look way better than the tilesets from MV and MZ is compatible with tileset sheets designed for MV, so those are two of the upsides that make me feel good about MZ and they are not the only upsides that are getting me interested in MZ.

It's not a technical issue, it's marketing issue imo. If I was the head of the department over there, I would've made the same decision. It all boils down to market positioning and the target audience.
Market positioning is definitely another factor. Not to mention, creating a completely ground up RPG Maker program would be costly, and as much as I like the RPG Maker programs and do treat them in the same way as I treat Unity and Unreal when it comes to game designing, that still doesn't change that the original target audience for the RPG Maker programs are hobbyists and JRPG fans, who may not be too worried about some of the things that are talked about within the RPG Maker community.
 

Touchfuzzy

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Honestly, I think sometimes people miss who the core audience of RPG Maker is. Like, yes, I want as many awesome features for people who use it more seriously, but 99.99% of RPG Maker users are hobbyists.
 

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Despite being an artist first, I am still programmer third and have an understanding of how program codes work as I studied C++ before and managed to understand Ruby, C#, and Javascript as a result. From what I can tell by looking at the scripts from XP through MV (especially MV), the only way for a RPG Maker program to be able to use tilesets of different sizes without running into any problem is by the RPG Maker program to be completely rebuilt and restructured from the ground up, and as I pointed out on my earlier comment, the sprites must be treated the same as the tilesets as the sprite size must match the tileset size. After all, you can't have a 48x48 sprite walking through a town created by a 32x32 tileset sheet. Furthermore, you can't use the plugin argument to justify or prove a point about tileset resizing, either, because you can't upscale a 32x32 tile into a 48x48 without getting any pixel distortion as 48 is perfectly divisible to 16 (3) and to 24 (2) but not to 32 (1.5). In other words, even with plugins that can upscale graphics (which I believe there are couple of those), there's no guarantee that the graphics will look good as they may end up getting pixel distortion. Trying to upscale a 32x32 tileset sheet into a 96x96 tileset sheet and shrink that 96x96 tileset sheet into a 48x48 tileset sheet will not work, either, as I tried to do that with the XP tileset sheets and the results were not pretty. In order for a tileset sheet to perfectly convert into a detailed tileset sheet of the size format of 16x16, 24x24, 32x32, or 48x48, the initial size format of the tileset has to be 96x96 (or 192x192 if you want to include 64x64 into the mix).
No offense but from that comment it's clear that you're not fully grasping the issue.

First, no, the editor does not need to be redesigned "from the ground up", not at all. Not even a little. It's a very easy and small change from a technical standpoint. I don't have access to RM source code but I've done the same change myself in other software and the only way it makes sense for this to be any challenge at all is if the code is really jacked up with magic numbers (bad coding practice) and they couldn't figure out all the right ones to replace.

Second, we don't want the editor to upscale our art to 48x48 for us in-game. (We don't want any upscaling at all, ideally - which is the whole point of asking for the feature to be included natively.) We want the editor to allow those other tile sizes to be used at their own size, not upscaled. Upscaling the art is simply a necessary evil for mapping inside the editor when using Shaz's tilesize plugin. I know how pixel distortion works, and it's actually irrelevant to the topic. The upscaled art doesn't actually get used in-game at all, but is placed in the default folder to "trick" the editor into letting us build the maps. It doesn't matter if it's distorted because it's never seen during play, it's just for mapping purposes. All talk about upscaling is only in the context of "if we can't get other sizes natively built into the editor."

(Second-and-a-halfly, in pixel art downscaling is hardly better than a shoddy 1.5x upscaling. The algortithm works a little better in most art software, but it still destroys the art in unacceptable ways. It will not retain the details. Art should be used at the size the artist made imo.)

Third, character sizes are not limited by tile size. (It's irrelevant though, since we'd obviously be using different characters....)

Finally, I mean, it's really not a big deal anymore. The big problem was the burdensome inconvenience of maintaining two art folders, but I figured out a way around that so its all moot. Nothing to see here anymore, really.

Honestly, I think sometimes people miss who the core audience of RPG Maker is. Like, yes, I want as many awesome features for people who use it more seriously, but 99.99% of RPG Maker users are hobbyists.
I'm just a hobbyist. Hobbyists happen to really like some of the older 32x32 art (DS especially...). Non-RM engines aren't an option with that art, and older RM engines have other (more serious) shortcomings. Either way, like I said, it's a moot issue now since there's a viable automation strategy on the table. :)
 
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Shaz

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@Archeia @Touchfuzzy Will the "change tile size" Plugin be included in the release version of MZ as it was in MV ?
I have not been asked to convert my plugin for MZ's release. Building support for multiple tile sizes within the engine is one thing, but I would be rather unhappy if someone else ported my plugin without asking for my permission first, or without giving me the opportunity to do it myself.

If it is not in the release version, I will probably convert it after release.
 

Touchfuzzy

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I don't know man, I think people are taking what I say and not understanding the full context of what I mean:

There are countless improvements that could have been made. Millions and millions of them. I would have liked the option to have a variable tile size, but it wasn't one of the new features that made it in.

And the reason I bring up most being hobbyists is that the vast majority just want to have things work right out of the box, and a feature that can't work right out of the box (because the cost of including full resource sets for multiple tile sizes) is lower down on the priority list than things that anyone can pick up the program and immediately use.

Also, the comment was in response to not just that conversation but a lot of complaints I've seen about what we've revealed. A lot of the criticisms (not all mind you) seem to boil down to "I want what I specifically would use, and anything else is crap". And to be honest, I'd love a realistic way to include every single option that could possibly be wanted without complicating it for the average user and be useable right out of the box... but it just isn't.
 
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Archeia

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I like how I just mentioned WHY multiple tilesizes and infinite layers is not gonna be implemented and nobody believed me despite being in the dev team. It's like people forgot XP had performance issues and had to have a terrible FPS otherwise their unlimited tilesets would be a major problem. It's like also people forgot RM is an HTML5 Game Engine.

We actually DID attempt to add multiple tile sizes to one of the MV updates just to see how hard it is to implement even though we have a vague idea of it. And the very first thing we encountered is the Event Placement and Autotiling issues. More issues kept cropping up and we decided it was not worth it for an MV update. I'm not surprised at all why KADOKAWA doesn't want to do it either. Because like I said:

1. They believe that if they add something, it has to be supported in future RM. The 2 steps backward, 1 step forward actually makes sense from a development perspective if you know RM's history. You guys probably don't realize this but Rm2k3 and RMXP are both commercial failures. Let that sink in.

VX-> VXA -> MV has not removed any features and has been improving or changing based on community feedback. The same goes to MZ.

People want High Resolution game support too, so let's provide them 48x48 instead of 32x32 so they can easily have resources to do that. That's literally their thought process.

2. Just because you think they shouldn't provide more resources doesn't mean Japan doesn't. They're extremely different from you guys especially from their professional perspective.

Plugins only have to worry about rendering in-game. Editor code is something completely different. Any software engineer that glances at RM would be like, oh yeah, I can see.
 
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Ahuramazda

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@Shaz I would love love love for you to update your multi timers plugin. I use that for my gathering nodes in my game and the risk of not having that anymore would be painful :)
(Link: https://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?threads/multi-timers.50474/ )

@Touchfuzzy For the tilesets, are the sizes identical as the ones for the MV RTP? not asking about 48x48, but for A1 are they the same size as this per tile?
1593918738165.png

And for B-E tiles, are they still 16 tiles x 16 tiles

I am looking to get a start on making a better tileset before launch and need to know the dimensions/tile layout and if anything at all has changed on the format for each tile page :D
 

Shaz

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I would love love love for you to update your multi timers plugin
I actually have a rewrite planned for that, for MV. So I'll do them both at the same time.

Touch has already said the MV tilesets are compatible, so I think you're safe to assume that means the same number of tiles per sheet, with the same type of tiles in the same locations.
 

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You guys probably don't realize this but Rm2k3 and RMXP are both commercial failures. Let that sink in.
Just Japan or everywhere?
If it was a failure in the west, I'd say that the software being hacked and given away for free may have been a huge contributor to that issue.
At the time they were released, there were still folks hacking and giving it away.
I remember those days.
Nothing will sell well if it's given away somewhere.
I mean, Japan may have had the same issue.
Just saying..
 

Piyan Glupak

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I can understand the point about making sure that MZ is easy to use for beginners begause a lot of their sales will be to novices. When I first became aware of RPG Maker, I downloaded trial versions of both VX and XP. I really wanted to like XP because the results looked more to my taste and it was half the price of VX. Unfortunately, I couldn't make head nor tail of it, whereas VX was easy enough for me to get started with.
 
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Looking forward to messing around with MZ when it comes out in little over a week. Anyone else amped? What's the first thing you're gonna look at/try to do?
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If the VisuStella videos are using the MZ RTP tilesets... I'm really disappointed. MV's look so much better. I hope it's easy to convert MV tiles to MZ.
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