RPG Maker MZ, Preview #2: Graphics, Mapping, Eventing!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Galenmereth

Retired
Veteran
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
2,248
Reaction score
2,142
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
N/A
There are plenty of kitchen sink engines, foremost among them being Unity, Game Maker and Unreal Engine. These engines can do mostly anything, but they're also very unwieldy unless you spend a lot of time building your own set of tools around them via addons, extensions, and a comprehensive set of skills.

RPG Maker was never a kitchen sink engine. It's an RPG Maker engine. Tile sizes, while seemingly "arbitrary" from a non-technical point of view, is a big deal. Let's say you support tile sizes of 16x16, but the user still wants to render this in a modern 1920x1080 -- or more likely, 2556x1440 resolution. So now the engine will have to render at least 160 tiles horizontally and 90 tiles vertically at any given time. Contrast that to 48x48 where it's 54 horizontally and 30 tiles vertically. Now you might think with modern hardware this isn't a problem, and it most likely wouldn't be for most, but this being an engine also meant for mobile development means this is actually significant because more tiles = more calculations per frame, of various kinds. The more tiles on screen, the more events on screen you can have at the same time as well. And the more animated tiles you can have, which takes up more vram. Now all of this is technically solvable, don't get me wrong. We'll inevitably get plugins for it. But the performance profiling will vary significantly. If you officially support it, you now have even more variations of engine metrics to test on devices and support. This is tremendously costly when it's something only a small subset of the user-base wants. And the argument that you don't have to provide assets for all the various sizes doesn't make sense to me, and I can already see the Steam reviews being unhappy with hidden costs crop up there.

Power users that don't see that as a problem aren't the primary user-base of RPG Maker.

Many people view the price of the RPG Maker series and think it's kind of expensive, especially when engines like Unreal Engine and Unity are "free", but what you get is a focused, cohesive, easy to use but highly extensible engine that officially does one thing, and does it very well, letting you get started on actually making games immediately, without any complicated setup. Add to that the RTP and it's pretty much a bargain IMO, especially since you don't have to pay any royalties for your games should you release them. Keeping that cost down while also providing something that works out of the box for most people is key to that.
 
Last edited:

kaine

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2015
Messages
150
Reaction score
77
First Language
Italian
Primarily Uses
RM2k3
I don't know if it has already been asked before, but can we know how much space a newly created project occupies?
 

BCj

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
928
First Language
Dutch
Primarily Uses
N/A
Here are a few which needed external scripts to fix them because the core engine was not updated.
Star passability bug
Turn count for skills (things happening one turn late)
selection by enemies for actions on their own allies
No core script way of removing debuffs, only buffs.
F12 bug

There were others, but I don't recall them atm.
Ah, yes, I have script fixes for all those (aside from f12, what's it for?). But those aren't what I'd classify "game crashing bugs" as Nio implied.
 

The Stranger

The Faceless Friend
Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
3,338
Reaction score
21,313
First Language
British English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
@BCj I think it takes you back to the title screen or something like that. It also liked to cause crashes. lol.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: BCj

Cyberhawk

Bravelion Leader
Veteran
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
88
Reaction score
63
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
I had a question then I like completely forgot it. lmao. If I recall it I'll like post right away.
Edit:
Oh yeah now I remember. It's about Iconsets!
What is MZ's compatable Iconset size? Unless you can't answer that
 

MikePjr

Artist
Veteran
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
758
Reaction score
463
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
I'm sorry to keep talking about this.
But I wanted to say something on the topic of assets sizes..

I think one of the issues with using the unusual workarounds for doing pixelated assets, is that there's no simple and time effective way of doing it.
Some sort of go between software would be nice.. i think someone mentioned that..
But it would help if i could just make my assets, and have something else worry about constantly resizing it.
I didn't use TileD because there was just too much involved with going that route.
Same with the plugin tile sizes.
There's no (i think) easy in between to make the workflow less annoying and less time consuming.
There's all this extra manual work you have to do, and it gets extremely annoying and time consuming.
If someone can figure this sort of thing out, it'd make things a lot less stressful for folks.
I encourage anyone out there who can alleviate this issue, to please do so.
 

Dalph

Nega Ralph™ (RM Tyrant)
Veteran
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
7,751
Reaction score
19,501
First Language
Italian Curses
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Databasing and System 2, Icons and maybe more info about the Generator.
I just got reminded about something that nobody even mentioned once I think, the accursed Dungeon (labyrinth) Generator, I wonder if MZ changed it and made it more useful.
 

Rogue Milk

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Messages
99
Reaction score
128
Primarily Uses

I'm really digging the vibes of these monster battlers. Specially that dragon, who actually looks like a "standard" dragon, as apposed to the MV one who is more sorta like a "fairy" dragon.

To be honest, it always bugged me how... "specific" some monsters are on MV RTP. Like, the hornet is not just a hornet, it's a hornet with a flower on the head. The demon is not just a demon, it's a demon coming out of a angel's dead body. The iron golem has a cat head and some egyptian decoration. And so on.

MV RTP is beatiful, but with a less "generic" look monsters is harder to make them fit more game' settings, imho.
 

nio kasgami

VampCat
Veteran
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
8,949
Reaction score
3,038
First Language
French
Primarily Uses
RMMV
Out of curiosity, what bugs are you talking about for VX ACe? I haven't found any from the core engine.
Here are a few which needed external scripts to fix them because the core engine was not updated.
Star passability bug
Turn count for skills (things happening one turn late)
selection by enemies for actions on their own allies
No core script way of removing debuffs, only buffs.
F12 bug

There were others, but I don't recall them atm.
The famous rgss3 error that u couldnt fix since the code was HIDDEN and was never really fixed?

But was making yami battle system crash ALL the time xD.

The animation bug who wasnt staying on event and was following you on screen.

Many many other
 

The Stranger

The Faceless Friend
Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
3,338
Reaction score
21,313
First Language
British English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
@Rogue Milk You're not the only one to dislike how unique and full of personality some of the MV RTP monsters were. The skeleton battler is a good example. It's not just a skeleton, it's the skeleton of a dancer. It's not a bad battler, I love it, but would every single undead be a dancer? xD
 

Lion Blade Soler

Autistic Artist
Veteran
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
75
Reaction score
72
First Language
Portuguese
Primarily Uses
RMMV
Here are a few which needed external scripts to fix them because the core engine was not updated.
Star passability bug
Turn count for skills (things happening one turn late)
selection by enemies for actions on their own allies
No core script way of removing debuffs, only buffs.
F12 bug

There were others, but I don't recall them atm.
Ah, yes, I have script fixes for all those (aside from f12, what's it for?). But those aren't what I'd classify "game crashing bugs" as Nio implied.
If I remember correctly, I believe that another bug had to do with getting an error when the Erase Picture Command Event was used. That was a bug that others and I found during the VX Ace beta testing and that bug did cause the game to crash.

There are plenty of kitchen sink engines, foremost among them being Unity, Game Maker and Unreal Engine. These engines can do mostly anything, but they're also very unwieldy unless you spend a lot of time building your own set of tools around them via addons, extensions, and a comprehensive set of skills.

RPG Maker was never a kitchen sink engine. It's an RPG Maker engine. Tile sizes, while seemingly "arbitrary" from a non-technical point of view, is a big deal. Let's say you support tile sizes of 16x16, but the user still wants to render this in a modern 1920x1080 -- or more likely, 2556x1440 resolution. So now the engine will have to render at least 160 tiles horizontally and 90 tiles vertically at any given time. Contrast that to 48x48 where it's 54 horizontally and 30 tiles vertically. Now you might think with modern hardware this isn't a problem, and it most likely wouldn't be for most, but this being an engine also meant for mobile development means this is actually significant because more tiles = more calculations per frame, of various kinds. The more tiles on screen, the more events on screen you can have at the same time as well. And the more animated tiles you can have, which takes up more vram. Now all of this is technically solvable, don't get me wrong. We'll inevitably get plugins for it. But the performance profiling will vary significantly. If you officially support it, you now have even more variations of engine metrics to test on devices and support. This is tremendously costly when it's something only a small subset of the user-base wants. And the argument that you don't have to provide assets for all the various sizes doesn't make sense to me, and I can already see the Steam reviews being unhappy with hidden costs crop up there.

Power users that don't see that as a problem aren't the primary user-base of RPG Maker.

Many people view the price of the RPG Maker series and think it's kind of expensive, especially when engines like Unreal Engine and Unity are "free", but what you get is a focused, cohesive, easy to use but highly extensible engine that officially does one thing, and does it very well, letting you get started on actually making games immediately, without any complicated setup. Add to that the RTP and it's pretty much a bargain IMO, especially since you don't have to pay any royalties for your games should you release them. Keeping that cost down while also providing something that works out of the box for most people is key to that.
That was/is even better than my earlier explanations. Thank you :)!
 
Last edited:

R_Valkyrie

Villager
Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
21
Reaction score
8
First Language
Swedish
Primarily Uses
There are two things that I miss. The infinite tileset from XP and the variable settings* for an event from 2k3.

*You could set in the variable tab if it was equal, below, above, equal/below, and equal/above. Later RPG Makers only have equal/above.
 

Canini

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
1,024
Reaction score
685
First Language
Swedish
Primarily Uses
RMVXA
@The Stranger I especially hate how the "Zombie" enemy uses an oversized fork and knife as weapons. It just looks so stupid.
They are not bad exactly, I kinda like them from a design stand-point but as the @The Stranger and @Rogue Milk notes it's gonna look really weird and out of place in most games. I do appreciate that they were trying something new but the common encounter monsters should probably be kept as generic as possible.

Something I miss from XP is the amount of personality the boss monsters had. The elementals had a lot attitude.
 

Touchfuzzy

Rantagonist
Staff member
Lead Eagle
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
7,177
Reaction score
8,614
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
I don't know if it has already been asked before, but can we know how much space a newly created project occupies?
The numbers are honestly crazy in how low they are compared to MV. I created a fresh project with MV and MZ and compared.

So first off, keep in mind that on top of the lower numbers, MZ also imports ALL the default resources, unlike MV which keeps some of them in a base resources folder, so that means MV actually has way less resources in a default project than MZ does. On the other hand, not every single file for MZ is in yet: busts and full arts aren't in atm, and only about half of the parallaxes are currently in the version I'm using. Everything else though is in (all music, all sprites/batters/tilesets/etc).

So the folder for a fresh MV project is 385MB.

The folder for a fresh MZ project is 88.3MB.

So how in the world is it that much lower even with more files? A number of things.

1. the Effects folder using Effekseer files takes up WAAAAAAY less space than the animations folder did.
2. Not having to have m4a files (since it natively uses ogg in all deployments) frees up a ton of space.
3. The png files seemed to be much more optimized (similar sized files are still much smaller).
 

SimProse

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2016
Messages
367
Reaction score
201
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
2. Not having to have m4a files (since it natively uses ogg in all deployments) frees up a ton of space.
This is HUGE actually, and should allow it to be ported to XBox One using UWP without needing to include the .m4a files (previously the .OGG didn't work for this purpose). Now if only I could figure out how to enable the XBox Live stuff using the HTML5 export feature...
 

ImaginaryVillain

Resident of Silent Hill... Apparently
Veteran
Joined
Jun 22, 2019
Messages
723
Reaction score
3,785
First Language
Absurdism
Primarily Uses
RMMV
People are going to be so surprised when they see particles in action, sure I'm no Elfkisser but I redid almost all of my game's graphics in particles (not the characters)... And the entire game's graphics clocks in at 18.3mb, that's literally everything including the characters. :LZSwink:
 

kaine

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2015
Messages
150
Reaction score
77
First Language
Italian
Primarily Uses
RM2k3
The numbers are honestly crazy in how low they are compared to MV. I created a fresh project with MV and MZ and compared.

So first off, keep in mind that on top of the lower numbers, MZ also imports ALL the default resources, unlike MV which keeps some of them in a base resources folder, so that means MV actually has way less resources in a default project than MZ does. On the other hand, not every single file for MZ is in yet: busts and full arts aren't in atm, and only about half of the parallaxes are currently in the version I'm using. Everything else though is in (all music, all sprites/batters/tilesets/etc).

So the folder for a fresh MV project is 385MB.

The folder for a fresh MZ project is 88.3MB.

So how in the world is it that much lower even with more files? A number of things.

1. the Effects folder using Effekseer files takes up WAAAAAAY less space than the animations folder did.
2. Not having to have m4a files (since it natively uses ogg in all deployments) frees up a ton of space.
3. The png files seemed to be much more optimized (similar sized files are still much smaller).
OH cool a huge improvement!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 3)

Latest Threads

Latest Posts

Latest Profile Posts

1 million messages is approaching. The end is near! M1M is like Y2K, but forum based. It's a bug that's gonna delete all attachments when we hit 1 mil messages. At least with Y2K we had warning....
If you manage to make a game that people play for hours, then reminding them to take a break gives that “This game cares about me” feeling and also lowers chance of burnout with your game.
Well... things are slow. I'm still waiting to get called back into my position, but I do have some time to design my games.
Suddenly wanna hear this ...

Forum statistics

Threads
103,430
Messages
999,255
Members
134,960
Latest member
ChibiCreator
Top