RPG Maker MZ, Preview #2: Graphics, Mapping, Eventing!

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slimmmeiske2

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Can tile size be changed? I'd prefer 32x32 over 48x48...
No. I assume you might be able to do it with a plugin, as you did with MV.

And if they changed something in the database, too.
Well, we know there's a whole new System2 tab in the Database. I'm curious to see what's included there. :)
 

Dark_Ansem

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It's going to be populated by the new "terms" screen!
 

Skyroar

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@Touchfuzzy Not sure if you can reveal it at the moment or not, but I have a few questions about weapon animations:
1. Will MZ still follow the same restrictive weapons sheets system from MV, where you can only have up to 3 img files for weapons in the system folder, and where you'll be unable to set up different weapon skins for different weapons of the same type?
2. Will you be able to set up weapon swinging animations during skill casting, or do we still need plugins for that?

I remember RPG Maker 2003 being more flexible in that regard.
 

josuke

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I really enjoy most horror games, even the Maker ones. I liked "Camp Sunshine" which was what I would call "popcorn horror." It wasn't extravagant but it was a nice short game with a decent story, it mixed in some of the "run and hide" elements that great franchises like "Clock Tower" implemented. I recommend checking it out. There was another one I can't remember the name of that was awesome but it involved playing a little girl and you had to escape from your father and you find out he was doing wicked experiments, I wish I knew what it was called.
MAD FATHER?
 

Skyroar

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I'm curious if there are any new event options they haven't talked about it yet.
And if they changed something in the database, too.
From the original post:
And many more!
But we haven't yet got a full reveal for some reason.
 

AfroditeOhki

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Projects are more possible. But we'll keep you posted if we have any converter on the horizon. So please don't worry c:
Hello I love you.
Ok, jokes aside, this is GREAT news, even if it's vague!
 

Knightmare

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MAD FATHER?
Yes! That was it. Thank you. I'm not even sure it was RPG Maker but I know it was a similar engine if it wasn't RPG Maker. I'm going to have to look it up and play again because it was pretty good.
 

Tamina

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@Tamina
Ok about the writing part, but you don't necessarily need length to build epicness, it's about depth.
Look at movies, they last 2 hours at most (usually) and I can list a lot of epic ones that are about saving the world.
I agree that regardless of genre, depth is the no.1 factor when it comes to being a memorable story. A horror story still needs depth and good structure to be "good", even if horror story itself could pull player in quicker with stronger atmosphere. Horror story just has the advantage of creating emotions quicker, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a free pass for a good story.

I believe this is why only a few horror story were truly successful. It has good atmosphere AND good structure. However a horror story with good atmosphere but bad structure still gets players attention for at least for a while. A traditional RPG with bad writing is pretty much instant death storywise since there's not much to do with atmosphere.

My understanding of RPG epicness is slightly different from usual Hollywood movie material. I meant traditional shonen story with coming of age theme, recruit 3-4 companions or more, and travel to different locations and experience the stories for that particular location. After hours of build up they reach the climax by facing the final boss. By comparison most Hollywood story has much simpler structure.

This kind of shonen RPG story is very, very hard to write well for hobbyist writers IMO. Every companion must have their own story, and they must support the main theme nicely. Every locations player visit must have a believable backstory, and NPC conversation must add something to the locations backstory. Every character and location has its own story structure and they must support the main structure. Failing at any one aspect and players quickly lost interest in the story. There are many AAA commercial RPG on the market that actually rely game play to keep players interested, not story. Just because this is hard to pull off.

Think about it. George R. R. Martin doesn't just write A Song of Ice and Fire in an year. He is a professional TV show writer for decades and the entire series took decades to write.

A good example of how "epic" story can be tough to handle for indie is eternal senia and it's sequel. The first game has a relatively simple story structure, 2 main characters, 1 sidekick, no villains. It spent 4hours to talk about the past interaction between 2 main characters, which builds up the final climax/emotional moment, and the result is very effective, as we can see with the 11k overwhelming positive reviews on steam.

Then when they decided to release a sequel with tons more characters, locations, power struggle between different faction the entire story falls apart, as most of these new stories were extremely bland to read. The entire series is written by the same person, and it's clear that they can handle small scale stories with less characters but not "epic" story with more things involved.

Back to the topic, I think it's clear that a bait(art, music, atmosphere, theme) that pulls player in isn't the same as story structure. I still believe that it's easier and faster to make players laugh or feel fear with limited resources because these emotions just comes fast. It's more work to build an epic emotion.

Yes, Hollywood movies can do them within 2 hours. But they also spent millions on VFX creating epic scenes. I may feel epic watching a scene with 100 CG soldiers fighting near a canyon in a movie theater, I wouldn't feel the same if they are all square pixel art characters in top down perspective made with rpgmaker assets. Presentation is everything.
 
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Tamina

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@Tamina
Ok about the writing part, but you don't necessarily need length to build epicness, it's about depth.
Look at movies, they last 2 hours at most (usually) and I can list a lot of epic ones that are about saving the world.

Decided to make a screenshot to show why it's tougher for indie dev to create epic feels with presentation.

This is a scene from Lord of the rings battle of helms deep:
Capture 2.PNG

This is the "indie dev's version" made in RMMV:
Capture.PNG

Version 2 can look slightly better with more custom arts, but it wouldn't convey the same feels even if it's done really well. When I watched battle of helms deep decades ago in the theatre for the first time, I had chills down the spine just looking at the visual. Since the VFX technology in that movie was way ahead of it's time. It's hard to imagine an indie dev would have the same resource to replicate the same feels.
 

Touchfuzzy

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But we haven't yet got a full reveal for some reason.
A combination of reasons. 1. there is a big one that is in this weeks reveal, and 2. there are tons of little tweaks here and there in the event commands and I'm still finding ones I hadn't noticed yet and 3. I'm running behind just on attempting to get each of the major reveals out on time without trying to catalogue every single event command change.

@Candacis Probably around 4pmish Eastern US time, that is when I usually do big posts when I'm not folllowing KDKW time. Or when I finish making the previews. One or the other.
 

Dororo

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It's hard to imagine an indie dev would have the same resource to replicate the same feels.
It's all relative to what you think "horror" is. I mean, creepypasta is not exactly an horror story, is more of a grim urban legend. It's convenient: modern assets and kids aren't pretending too much (not speaking "glitchy" graphics are part of the myth).
More than "horror" you're conveying "guro" or grotesque to youtube kids that feel cool to share their reaction online.
But is actual horror easier to convey than fantasy epicness? Ask Giger.
Dark-Seed-2-4-e1561392967438.png


It's hard to figure out how the same scene could have been solved in plain 2d... but the fact is horror games turned 3d long before fantasy games did, in the need of a more personal perspective.
 

Vanilla Cheesecake

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Decided to make a screenshot to show why it's tougher for indie dev to create epic feels with presentation.
I understand what you're intending to mean, but to be fair, it just takes a bit of elbow grease, and using default assets doesn't do the argument much justice. Sure, studios have a better shot, but it's not impossible for indie to (and by extent, RM), too.


This cutscene is using MV3D (since I think if you're going to compare something that's rendered in 3D to at least something on the same level). It's just an example of things people *can* do to create compelling scenes. It's honestly entirely down to the creator's skill, and/or limits.
 

Tamina

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I understand what you're intending to mean, but to be fair, it just takes a bit of elbow grease, and using default assets doesn't do the argument much justice. Sure, studios have a better shot, but it's not impossible for indie to (and by extent, RM), too.


This cutscene is using MV3D (since I think if you're going to compare something that's rendered in 3D to at least something on the same level). It's just an example of things people *can* do to create compelling scenes. It's honestly entirely down to the creator's skill, and/or limits.
A "compelling scene" is certainly doable by indie, but only if they work with their strength and avoid their weakness. And certain story genre, such as epic/political tend to make indie weakness more obvious, that was the point that I was trying to make from the start: it's easier for horror/darker indie game to succeed because it's easier to create horror/dark feeling with less resources.

As far as the video that you showed, it actually has a dark/mysterious feels, at least I didn't get a sense of epicness when I watch them. which supported my theory that it's easier for indie to accomplish such atmosphere with less resources.

For that particular scene it actually has nothing to do with 3D. Make the same scene in 2D I bet it'll have the same feels. 3D has its strength, it's better for showing depth of field than top down perspective. For epic scenes or open world feels 3D has a huge advantage. For indoor/mysterious atmosphere, 3D doesn't add much. 2D can be as competitive as 3D for darker/mysterious style.

Edit: I noticed I missed the first part in the video where depth of field showed. The same scene in 2D may look weaker without depth of field showing the soldiers, but it doesn't affect the main scene with conversation going on.

As far as "skill" goes, I wish every presentation problem can be solved with just "skills". But sometimes that's just not enough. "Time" is also a huge factor. If I want to create an epic battle scene with hundreds of soldiers fighting each other, each animated with more than 3 frames, and background shows depth of field like that helms deep battle in LoTR movie, I'd need way more resources than just rtp and skills because it takes so long to make with a small team. If I attempt that kind of feels with just rtp, 3 frames animations and top down perspective, it will just look worse than AAA commercial games and potential customer will just pay for AAA commercial games instead.

On the other hand, a darker/horror/mysterious scenes created in RTP or similar style has much better chance to compete with commercial games if they are done right. That's why I feel mystery/horror/dark RM game has greater advantage than epic shonen manga jrpg.
 
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Vanilla Cheesecake

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As far as "skill" goes, I wish every problem can be solved with just "skills". But sometimes that's just not enough. If I want to create an epic battle scene with hundreds of soldiers fighting each other, each animated with more than 3 frames, and background shows depth of field like that helms deep battle in LoTR movie, I'd need way more resources than just rtp and skills. If I attempt that kind of feels with just rtp, 3 frames animations and top down perspective, it will just look worse than AAA commercial games and potential customer will just pay for AAA commercial games instead.
I'll agree that in this context, the scene's dimensions don't matter, I just wanted to show it as an example of what people are capable of doing as indie, and how it can be applicable/expanded.

Skill is a huge blanket term, which is why I said it. Skill can be animation, drawing, coding, level design, sound design/engineering, making intelligent use of plugins that exist, etc. Skill doesn't just mean "just use RTP and RPG Maker as minimally as you can", I think the aim is not to create things with just the RTP though if you're truly intending to go for a "feeling", especially if you want it to stand out amongst the crowd commercially. Unfortunately, cookiecutter RTP games(of any genre) do happen a lot and that does tarnish those with the skill to make RTP look good.
 

Sword_of_Dusk

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On the other hand, a darker/horror/mysterious scenes created in RTP has much better chance to compete with commercial games if they are done right. That's why I feel mystery/horror/dark RM game has greater advantage than epic shonen manga jrpg.
Maybe for you. An individual scene is not enough for me. If the story is crap, I'm not gonna enjoy it as much.
 

Touchfuzzy

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I'll be honest, I don't get the whole "RM can create horror atmosphere easier" cause I cannot for the life of me take 2D horror games seriously as "scary" at all.

Horror games only got good as actual HORROR games when graphics starting getting good enough for strong immersion.

Usually horror games from before then were horror THEMED games, but not actually horror games.
 

Sword_of_Dusk

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I'll be honest, I don't get the whole "RM can create horror atmosphere easier" cause I cannot for the life of me take 2D horror games seriously as "scary" at all.

Horror games only got good as actual HORROR games when graphics starting getting good enough for strong immersion.

Usually horror games from before then were horror THEMED games, but not actually horror games.
I don't believe RM can do the horror atmosphere easier either, but I do believe they can give one a chilling experience. It all comes down to the writing.

For example, though it isn't anywhere near an RM game, 999 writes certain scenes with such gory and detailed descriptions that, even without an accompanying image, the player can't help but squirm due to being forced to visualize it themselves. This makes it worse than seeing it, and 999 isn't even a horror title!
 
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Made a video showcasing a plugin that changes the animation rate for animated tiles in our games.

(Plugin by Caethyril )
I guess if you're just going solo dev, minimize features is better choice.
As close as possible, now I draw all of them with little by little needle sticking.
Welp, back to the drawing board...
Ami
--- Overused ---

Hero: (Drink 3 HP Bottle L)
F.Healer: Don't drink too much,or you got sick!
Hero: Nah,i'm okay. it's the way to repleni---
(Hero Collapse)
Hero: (Weak) Ugh...my head (Coughing Then Vomiting)
F.Healer: I told you to don't Drink 3 HP Bottle L or you're Sick. Let's go to Doctor.

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