RPG Maker MZ, Preview #3: Character Generator, Plugin Manager, Event: Plugin Command!

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DoubleX

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When it comes to whether the upgrades from MZ, or the MZ as a "patch" of MV(or MZ as a completely brand new engine, etc), worth it, I'd at least consider the following factors:
1. How much does MZ cost(If it's somewhere way above 100USD then I'm too poor to pay no matter how fantastic it's)? Is there some kind of discount(like 5-10% preorder discount and/or another 5-10% for those owning XP, VX, VXA or MV, potentially netting the max possible to be 10-20%)?
2. Can resource providers(3rd party system creators, plugin developers, artists, musicians, etc) really leverage the under the hood improvements in MZ into significantly better resource qualities, applications and supports so those changes can eventually benefit end users indirectly(It's not known now for sure as MZ isn't even released yet)?
3. Similarly, does those under the hood improvements in MZ lead to more good resource providers and the number of good resources having more users per resource provider(those under the hood changes are supposed to increase the long term productivity of resource providers after all)?
4. Am I content with the existing RM that I already own(in my case it's a small no but that's different for every user of course)?
5. Does upgrades in MZ targeting end users directly really improve my QoL as an end user(it seems to be a small yes for me but that's also different for every user certainly)?
Also, I don't know if there will be even more upgrades in MZ, so I can't judge whether I'll just jump into MZ from day one yet :D

JavaScript:
PluginManager.registerCommand("TestPlugin", "PluginCommandFunctionName", args => {
    // Get Arguments
    const actorIds = JSON.parse(args.Actors);
    const stateId = args.State;

    // Use the arguments
    for (const actorId of actorIds) {
        const actor = $gameParty.members().find(member => member.actorId() === Number(actorId));
        if (actor) {
            actor.addState(stateId);
        }
    }
});
Just a small wonder, as this code could've been written with Promise, does it mean the MZ codebase is still mainly callback based? While I'm ok with both styles and switching to mainly Promise based does increase the learning curve for those not knowing Promise, I'm just curious :)

If a new folder structure for the generator has many hurdles, I'm curious to see what the completely revised core will look like. If you use the working method "we avoid work that is complex", the whole thing will not be much better than in mv. they certainly didn't do everything from scratch. Even if they write it blah blah in their marketing. The core will be the same as in mv, + 1-2 changes..
I interpret the general attitude of the MZ dev team not as avoiding work that is complex, but rather prioritizing tasks having higher ROI(consuming less from the budget, improving product quality more drastically and having a bigger increase on sales) than those with lower ROI(but I won't know whether their prioritization's sound of course), and I think the new folder structure you mentioned might be implemented after MZ has released for a while, meaning that it might be delivered as an upgrade afterwards.

Then i become no info about the Android stuff..

This big thing of mv! (Mobile version?) Export to Android! Bäm! Oh wait..
This was a big failure. No Plugin are works on Android, no good performance. Nice.. and all plugin maker are to lazy to test there plugins on mobile because the export system is not intuitiv and easy like the rest of the engine. Oh,.. wait,.. same probleme like the one with the Generator.

This are 2 realy disappointed points in MV wat still would be in MZ after 5! Years..
Even though I consider constantly screwing up in my low end Android phone(struggling on having stable 60 FPS in battles with plugins) to be always solely my fault, I'm also waiting on whether MZ will have even better mobile supports, and I still don't know a thing uptil now(or maybe I've just overlooked tons of info), so I guess I'll just keep waiting patiently(they've to take priorities on revealing info after all) :)
 
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KoriCongo

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Tbh in all the complain of features upgrade we need is the generator being not changed but let's remember in a roadmap.... The priority to upgrade a character generator is pretty goddamn low. I honestly prefer them to pass their energy / budget on upgrading other stuff like the plugin Commands than an character generator. oh and of course implementing meaningful upgrades. So nice they added arrows to the generator do it need more? yeah is it important over stability and better QOL upgrades? nope.

and I explained MANY MANY time about why it shouldn't be just an update lol so I am tired to repeat myself
Stability is important, I was around for the MV memory leak days.
But given the fact that this is the 3rd character generator they made, I don't think it would be that farfetch'd to ask to make it a little more flexible and user-friendly to add into.

As cool as stability is, it isn't an incentive for the game creator to upgrade.
Especially given that stability is a thing they have to see for themselves and have to prove.
Read: if there is a MZ memory leak, I am going to screech...

EDIT: I will addendum my point and say you are right the character generator should be pretty low, a game creator should be using their own art assets and not the default RTP pieces. BUT RPG Maker is marketed for the low-skilled, beginner game designers. Meaning any improvement to those beginner-friendly features is going to be more impactful than an improvement to the codebase (which honestly speaking, I'm betting it is not going to be that big of an improvement...).
 

nio kasgami

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Just a small wonder, as this code could've been written with Promise, does it mean the MZ codebase is still mainly callback based? While I'm ok with both styles and switching to mainly Promise based , I'm just curious :)
I mean they did say they use the latest node so using promise call back wouldn't be surprising. I wouldn't also be surprised they use Asynchronous function generator (await, async etc). which are big life quality improvement in term of code. Although I am not sure if Await and Async are fully support in modern browser yet.

Working with callback does have it's drawback to be a 'little' more complicated. (Heck even myself struggle to work with it sometime)

@KoriCongo I am all for improvement don't get me wrong! and memory leaks are hard to track / fix tbh lol but Pixi V5 show a lots of improvements.

Also I think their main focus was : let's make the code base not a f***** ram eater haha.
 

Jitsu

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Yeah waiting is the other thing. 3 weeks of leak confirmation... I'm feel very sry for touchfuzzy. Must be a hard job. Keep it up! And sleep more.
 

nio kasgami

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for people not familiar with away and async they are pretty much like Fiber.yell from the old RM VX ace day.
It didn't existed in MV since await and async wasn't supported.
they work in a way to pause the execution of a function until another function who got called is done.

here's an example from javascript.info
Code:
async function showAvatar() {

    // read our JSON
    let response = await fetch('/article/promise-chaining/user.json');
    let user = await response.json();
 
    // read github user
    let githubResponse = await fetch(`https://api.github.com/users/${user.name}`);
    let githubUser = await githubResponse.json();
 
    // show the avatar
    let img = document.createElement('img');
    img.src = githubUser.avatar_url;
    img.className = "promise-avatar-example";
    document.body.append(img);
 
    // wait 3 seconds
    await new Promise((resolve, reject) => setTimeout(resolve, 3000));
 
    img.remove();
 
    return githubUser;
  }
 
  showAvatar();
more info here : https://javascript.info/async-await
 

Sword_of_Dusk

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Negativity is just as important to have as positivity, you shouldn't be hard on people for not being persuaded to spend $80 of their hard-earned money again on what amounts to another marginal update to an engine that already doesn't have the best reputation in the market, even in comparison to its other versions.

You can rally and cry about all the improvements and additions, if it walks like MV, talks like MV, plays like MV, and looks like MV, you are going to have a hard time telling people to move on from MV. Especially if it still have many of the same faults as MV...
You misunderstand. Negativity is important, but not if that's all you're going to bring to the table. It's like the difference between telling someone their story sucks, and giving constructive criticism on what's wrong and how to improve it. You shouldn't ever excuse an entirely negative response. . .most of the time.
 

Kaliya

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Just a small wonder, as this code could've been written with Promise, does it mean the MZ codebase is still mainly callback based? While I'm ok with both styles and switching to mainly Promise based does increase the learning curve for those not knowing Promise, I'm just curious :)
I'm not at liberty to go into specifics, sorry. I only explained how plugin commands work as I was given permission :). If I am given permission to give more specifics about the code base I will say what I am allowed and what I feel needs to be said. :)
 

Nolonar

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2. Can resource providers(3rd party system creators, plugin developers, artists, musicians, etc) really leverage the under the hood improvements in MZ into significantly better resource qualities, applications and supports so those changes can eventually benefit end users indirectly(It's not known now for sure as MZ isn't even released yet)?
Regarding plugin creators: It depends on the creator's skills.

However, better quality code is generally easier to understand, which means faster plugin releases (people need less time to learn how the core works), can make some changes easier to do, and reduce the probability of mistakes.


Also MZ has plenty of potential to benefit end users directly.
For example: in MV, every time a map is loaded, a number of windows are created (such as the Message Window, the Map Name Window, the Gold Window, and more).
The problem is, even if the windows are not currently visible, they're being updated on every frame. That's a huge waste of CPU cycles.

Now, imagine using a plugin that adds speech bubbles to NPCs, each speech bubble is a window, and you have a map with thousands of NPCs with speech bubbles, and the plugin maker didn't notice MV's flaw. Your game could slow down to a crawl, even though only 1/1000 speech bubbles is visible.

Technically, all flaws in MV's core can be fixed by plugin developer, but you can't expect all plugin devs to know about all flaws and fix them all. Therefore, if MZ can fix those flaws, it already benefits the end user, even if they'll likely never know about it.
 

LTN Games

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I love seeing my proposal for the plugin command I made back in 2017 in the latest iteration of RM! I appreciate seeing my ideas come to fruition finally. It would've been nice to tell me it was coming though :stickytongue: , did you really come up with this idea on your own?


 

LTN Games

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well at least u contributed xD
Hey I'm happy that my suggestions are so awesome, it does appear to be one of the most talked about features in this current preview thread :stickytongue: I have plenty more suggestions, they should've asked me for more before release lol
 

DoubleX

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Hey I'm happy that my suggestions are so awesome, it does appear to be one of the most talked about features in this current preview thread :stickytongue: I have plenty more suggestions, they should've asked me for more before release lol
Or maybe they should just hire you as a RM dev/consultant/tester/etc :)
 

winkr7

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Is someone like yanfly writing a bunch of plugins already for this new engine? To be released (like yanfly) when MZ is released? I think for many users the first thing they look for are plugins (maybe not the best way to do a game but that is what they do). Knowing someone competent already has MZ and that they will be working on well documented plugins for 3 years is almost a must to switch away from MV.

Very obvious stuff like a quest journal (which yanfly didn't write but did include as a compatible plugin) is a must for instance.
 

GethN7

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My only question is "when I can start throwing money at MZ".

It's basically MV with all the problems I had with it fixed.
 

K2loid

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I personally brought up folders because I make my own generator parts & I find filesaving stressful and disorienting, it's not actually...a Capital P "Problem". I thought to point it out because of basic repetition fatigue and remembering how many packs are in the store. I'd buy a $10 Tool that just imports pieces for me and let Degica monetize my file-organization-hating brainrot. After typoing "TV" and "SV" 8 times in a row despite knowing the difference between the 2 perfectly well I'm ready to let the elements take me (and my wallet).

I think there's this absolutism with "MZ changing/not changing SUCKS" VS "don't criticize that, MZ is fine", but there's really a third emotion, which is "now that I don't have to rest on MV, I'm reminded of things that were roadblocks/are integral to my flow/etc that I set aside at the time, but knowing that we're getting an update, I'm thinking about again". I think a lot of criticism is to that effect; I ended up spending like 3 days cataloguing the extent of colourism in RPG Maker RTP all the way back to the Super Dante era not because it was of grave import to me or something I was "ready to be angry about", but because now that there's new RTP to think about I end up thinking of old issues with fresh new eyes.

It's a little easier to digest "negativity" if you remind yourself that sometimes comments aren't just hate or pessimism, but genuinely people dusting off old thoughts that were buried until now. Like the fact I hate filenames ♥♥♥

Not to say this thread hasn't been Battle 3 150% Pitch dire. Because it has. The final boss of a dev cycle: the fandoommmm

Also as an apology for accidentally producing small essays every time I post I saw an Out Of Touch Thursday tweet as soon as I woke up the thursday of this update and this was the absolute funniest thing I've ever thought in that moment

1594431753866.png
 

Prescott

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Guys, a lot of this stuff is changing more than any of the previous iterations of RPG Maker have. What changed from XP to VX? VX Ace to MV? Relatively little compared to MV to MZ and from what we can tell so far they are all improvements. This is the looking to be the best RPG Maker yet. You may think it is "just an update" but if this is just an update to MV then all the older engines with the exception of maybe XP were far smaller updates and definitely didn't warrant their high price points.
 

Shaz

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Is someone like yanfly writing a bunch of plugins already for this new engine? To be released (like yanfly) when MZ is released?
This has been mentioned several times, but finding them would be like searching for a needle in a haystack.

No EN devs have access to the engine yet for the purpose of making plugins. At least they didn't at the time Archeia made that statement a couple of weeks ago.

Yanfly has no plans to return to make plugins, but (as mentioned in his retirement video) will be acting as a mentor to a team of people who will convert (at least some of) his plugins to MZ.


Knowing someone competent already has MZ and that they will be working on well documented plugins for 3 years is almost a must to switch away from MV.
Why? This wasn't the case with previous engines, and yet we have plenty of plugins by plenty of competent plugin makers. You are not going to get any guarantee that ANY of the plugin makers are still going to be here in 3 years. You at least know that Yanfly is not personally going to create any new ones. If this really, truly is a must for you to switch away from MV, then I think you will be continuing to use MV.
 

KoriCongo

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You misunderstand. Negativity is important, but not if that's all you're going to bring to the table. It's like the difference between telling someone their story sucks, and giving constructive criticism on what's wrong and how to improve it. You shouldn't ever excuse an entirely negative response. . .most of the time.
Given what they said was very clear in what they weren't satisfied in, you can't call it "unconstructive criticism". "An entirely negative response" is just as valid as blind praise.
 
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