RPG Maker MZ, Preview #3: Character Generator, Plugin Manager, Event: Plugin Command!

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Anyone

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Can i ask question, that was bothering me since MV's release?
Why one tile became 48x from 32x, but not 64x?
I mean, main theory, that i heard was "We had not enough space in one tile for RTP!", but...
One good man said, that there is one principle of pixel graphics, that about scaling: "Multiplying must be done on proper multiplicity (1x, 2x, 3x)."
So... 32x can be just 64x, right?
I am also created several maps for Doom and Half-Life 1, so i know that fact, that one or both two sides of texture must have size == power of 2 (8x, 16x, 32x, 64x, 128x, 256x, 512x and etc.).
And here we go again with 64x...
But as result we have 48x, that is scale == 1.5x of VXA tile (32x -> 48x).
To be honest, this is pain in the back to scale VXA tiles to MV (Adobe Photoshop or Waifu2X can grant different, but not ideal results and there is always some graphical artifacts like pixels and lines, that are off).
Someone can tell me, that there is some packs just for MV, but what if i have them already for VXA?
Don't take my post as personal attack or something and thank you already for your honest answer.
Multiplication is relevant when talking about asset conversion, but you actually weren't supposed to convert VXA assets to RMV. (You can still do so, but you have to multiply up to the number that has both as denominator, which would be 96. So to get from VXA to MZ, you'd multiple by 300% 32->96 and then divide that by 2. Size increase is done via nearest neighbor, but for the decrease you have to go with bilinear or bicubic interpolation. The result is okay, but not the same quality level. But even at 64, you wouldn't have a decent result either, because you'd just have doubled the pixels for every pixel, leading to assets that will feel as if they don't appropriately use the pixels they have)

The main reason why they shied away from 64, I think, is two-fold:
1. 64 tiles & chars are a lot more bigger than 32 and thus require more detail to make use of the added pixels. So making a 64 chair in your tileset, for example, would require more work than a 32 chair.

2. Size. 32x32 has a total of 1024 pixels drawn on the canvas. 64x64 is twice the size in length & height, but quadruple the file size! 4096 pixels are drawn on the canvas.

That effectively means that any tileset in 64 size would require 4 times the loading times and engine ressource than a 32 tileset. And MV, from what I've heard, was already just barely scraping past issues with the number of pages for the tileset. So a 64 tileset would've very likely lead to bloated filesize of all assets and would've caused issues with RMV.
In fact, you can - if you load bitmaps via JS in RMV - already come across issues where files that are too large and can't be loaded in time - forcing you to preload or to update the scene when the image has been loaded.
So you'd probably end up with loading times before every scene change, since every tileset would require quite a bit of time to preload.

And in order to make the editor itself work...you'd probably have to force tilesets to be smaller and scrap 1 or 2 pages.

Little known fact: if you have too many tilesets in your RMV editor...your editor can crash while the JS tileset data is open, corrupting your entire tileset data, forcing you to either load from backup if you have one, or do the whole thing anew.
(How do I know? That's exactly what happened to me.)

That's because the editor has serious issues when you have a lot of images or animations loaded in your database, which you may recognize by how saving becomes very slow, opening the database also no longer is instant, and when you've got too much of it...the editor goes haywire and crashes.

This also extends to other parts of the editor, btw.
If you're using a bust plugin and you're loading bustsheets made of multiple busts into the face image browser when selecting the face in a dialogue conversation, if that image is too big (around 7000x7000 or so) it simply cannot deal with the filesize of the image and your editor crashes.
If you managed to assign that bustsheet to a character via other ways and got it written into your JS DB, it'll actually corrupt the entire database insofar as it becomes impossible to open the database without crashing. The only way to resolve that problem is to directly use notepad++ or similar to edit the JS DB file of your actors and remove the file directly inside the JS code.

TL;DR:
Bigger files cause BIG issues. Bigger project sizes, more workload, and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of engine issues that'll drive users insane. :distrust::dizzy:D:<
 

DragomanPl

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Will generator parts be compatibile with MV(besides the dead animation of course)?
 

Alexandr_7

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As far as I know, and have repeatedly said, compatibility will only be what you can safely use DLC from MV in MZ. On this, all compatibility ends.
 

Sharm

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@Anyone According to my brother, due to the way memory is allocated in computers 48x48 tiles take up exactly the same amount of memory as 64x64, so I don't think that's the reason. Granted, I don't know if it was active memory or storage memory he was talking about at the time. I think it was something more simple. They were focusing on being able to export to phones, and it needed to be a size that you could click on with your finger.
 

Coelocanth

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The tilemaps are not 48x48 though, they are 48x48 sections of a 768x768 image.
Tiles being packed into large sheets is exactly to avoid the issue raised by Sharm's brother.

32 bit pixels after decompression, so any size divisible by 8 pixels should be good for a 256 bit memory word when it comes to copying pixels around.
(unless GPUs impose other requirements for 2D, I'm not very familiar there)
 

Sharm

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Ah, that makes sense. Being sheets instead of individual tiles would make a difference. I guess it could be the file size after all. I still think it's a dumb tile size for an artist, and might be contributing to the existence of the awkward half pixel style they've been using.
 

Alexandr_7

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Given that this was not discussed, it is unlikely
 

The Stranger

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@Hudell Oh God, I hope so too. Was so excited the first time I saw MV had a built in map capture tool, only to discover it created these tiny, worthless things. I wonder if those tiny screenshots for resource packs are created using it? :p
 

Anyone

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@Anyone According to my brother, due to the way memory is allocated in computers 48x48 tiles take up exactly the same amount of memory as 64x64, so I don't think that's the reason. Granted, I don't know if it was active memory or storage memory he was talking about at the time. I think it was something more simple. They were focusing on being able to export to phones, and it needed to be a size that you could click on with your finger.
It gets a bit tricky in practice, because not only do the png's contain every pixel position, but the color is also added to the info they store.
So a 48x48 tile wouldn't result in just 2304 bits of data, it's actually part of a much bigger sheet and it also needs to store the colors used across the entire sheet. (One of the ways you can reduce the size of pictures, for example, is by reducing the number of different colors being used, thus compressing the file. Colors that are similar are turned into the same color.) For more detail on image compression and image filesizes you'd have to ask an actual expert, though.
The simple thing to keep in mind is that it works a bit like volume. You might only be doubling something like the height or the width, but the actual volume of information increases exponentially.

I'd also assume they do the same thing they do with icons & faces, which is to load the entire sheet and then extract from that sheet the frame that's required. (So any time you load an icon, the entire icon sheet would be loaded - though I think the icon sheet might generally be preloaded and stored in the memory for the entire time anway? But in facesheets using bust plugins or using bitmap to load your own *.png file into, say, a custom menu, you can feel a noticable difference when loading larger images)

But you might not be wrong about the phone part, either. Ultimately, only the devs can give the actual reasons, and they're likely not just one reason, but a multitude of them.
For example your mobile reason can also be linked to filesizes of the sheet images stored in the application. If any tileset was 4 times the size, that'd mean that games get a lot bigger. That means phones with limited space might not be able to even store the game.
And a 64 tileset is still almost twice as big as a 48 tileset.
 

nio kasgami

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As a rule of thumbs in 3D development (which apply to 2D games as well)

"If you can get the same amount of details for smaller then it's good"

People think that 64x64 would be better since it a lots of more details and it charge at the same speed.
But filesize still increase and do you REALLY need that much details? not really. It would just end into wasted whitespace and GOSH MV sprite is already known to waste pixels.
 

Sharm

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I donno if it would actually be a waste. 64x64 would lead to more painter like tiles and allow for non-pixel sprites, I think. 48x48 is just too inbetween in scale in my opinion. I've tried to make painted tiles for 48x48 multiple times, and it's just a mess due to not having enough pixels for a painted style to look clear enough, and that size is too big for pixel art to be used effectively. With 64x64 I could make something look painted without looking too repetitive or grainy. In fact, the tile size for a high res game is more likely to be 128x128 (although usually those don't use tiles at all). As for the sprites, at that scale they would be able to break away from pixels entirely, and you could have ones that look closer to cartoons or anime. Of course, you'd also need a lot more frames to look right, but it wouldn't be a waste of pixels. I don't think it would happen because of the non-tiles needing more art at that scale, but as a user I think it would be fun.
 

BreakerZero

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I believe there's also an image tool that has been circulated in the past which can use XBR as a resize option, this actually has far better results than normal resize tools. One caveat is that XBR does overscale significantly (a VXAce tileset can easily top 2,000 pixels for the whole thing!) so you have to remember to down scale accordingly (meaning you still have to run it through paint.net, Photoshop, GIMP or whatever your image editor is).
 

Archeia

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I like 48x48 as a size for pixel art (I learned to love it). I felt it's a great way to create HD pixel art but still remain manageable. It is a weird size though.

I'm not complaining about their decision though. I felt like for my personal interest it did manage to hit what I wanted weirdly enough.
 

R1PFake

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Semi off topic but why does this forum keep spamming me with emails about this thread after I already disabled all email settings in my account (why are they even on per default, that's annoying) :rolleyes:
 

BreakerZero

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@R1PFake You are probably still on the watch list. At the top of the page, click/tap UNWATCH and confirm your intent.
 

Dororo

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The whole tileset thing come from a different era, with dedicated memory pages and much way smaller devices: a SNES had a resolution of 256x254, a Nintendo DS is 256x192 ...
and most WII games ran on 640x480.
The best pixel art ever was made with a pc98, that ran at 640x400 pixels.

zTwYyVi.png
If you want to reach full HD, 1080 and more, you probably need another paradigma (3d) than 2d tilesets, that strangely enough are less efficient nowadays that processing 3d layers.
 

nio kasgami

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I actually asked last week and fuzzy said he would ask the JP team if he could tell us anything.
but @Archeia is there some kind of new tools that we should expect as plugin dev? or like do the rpg_file are bundled or they are separated and we use import/export features?
or like is there use of async function in MZ codebase?
 
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