RPG Maker MZ, Preview #5: TPBS, A Closer Look

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nio kasgami

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yeah fair so I will give them the benefit of the doubt they did said they reworked it.
Sorry it just took me by surprise and I was like : are you serious? like we can use es6 everywhere why obstinating to es5. but after let's wait for an answer.


As for great news I already began the definitions files for the core files. for MZ.
 

GHNeko

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This create another issue. Incredibly slow starting characters/combat in early chapters (or, to compensate, inconsistent speed upgrades). That's more true if you want for your characters to act twice or thrice before a slow opponent - this last one should be VEEERY slow on screen (zzz...zzz...).

Anyway, an absolute bonus to charge time will be nice. That way you can actually see speeded up characters act faster than the default cap.

I mean that's something I personally am okay with tackling as actual AAA RPGs have tackled with no problems in the past. I don't even consider it an issue but rather a design choice that isnt inherently good or bad. It's absolutely based off of what feel you want out of your game.
Grandia 2 flashes to the top of my mind of an RPG that doesn't have relative speed based on one of the characters, and it's the best feeling ATB-styled JRPG imo. The sensation and feeling of more tangibly having your characters grow in not just damage numbers but speed, especially if you invest in it is superb so I'd like to personally recreate this feeling regardless of the cons.
 

Archeia

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Hey guys, currently the backend script is still under development hence there is not much information. There was also probably a miscommunication on language. But just to clarify:

The only ES6 is the use of const and let that I am aware of. Everything else is still ES5. However, you can use ES6 no problem just the code itself isn't written in full ES6. We are still unsure how much of the core script is still being (re)written as it is still under development.

I haven't been as active here since we are extremely busy right now but please understand.
 

Galenmereth

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If core scripts are still being written 3 weeks before launch, that's a bit worrying honestly. I foresee quite some time with bugs and bugfixes ahead post launch this time as well, then.
 

Archeia

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If core scripts are still being written 3 weeks before launch, that's a bit worrying honestly. I foresee quite some time with bugs and bugfixes ahead post launch this time as well, then.

We are currently in the process of fixing bugs. I don't know anything other than that if they have more plans on the code (considering api also mentions 0.9.5)
 

Hudell

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I'm making a list of things that has changed since MV 1.6.2, but it looks like anything that was added to MV since 1.0 is not included on MZ 0.9.5
 

nio kasgami

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I am sorry but what?

So you telling us that it's "miscommunication"? you go promote that the code was "Rewritten" to ES6 standard directly on the post.

it's a big let down tbh
rDB22D4.png

there it show written there. It hyped us programmer for nada.

and now we will probably write in ES6? but why write in ES6 standard if the code base is in ES5? No we can't without confusing any new people who are not as remotely familiar with the differences.
as they say: try to keep the programming similar to the code base so it integrates better and is more readable. (well IMO es6 is easier to read but shh)

I am sorry I sound aggressive it's just very annoying.
 
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Archeia

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It is what it is. There are massive changes in corescript but I am not allowed to talk about that I am aware of. I am unsure if API is 100% complete yet. Again, I am not as active in the forum until Touch asked me. Don't ask me about it.
 

Kaliya

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I am sorry but what?

So you telling us that it's "miscommunication"? you go promote that the code was "Rewritten" to ES6 standard directly on the post.

it's a big let down tbh
Could you name one objective benefit for using class syntax and not the "old" es5 prototype way? The code itself uses es6 where applicable and an objective benefit over es5 is there, from what I can tell.

Also, "it looks better" or "it looks nicer" isn't an objective benefit, that is subjective and a borderline asinine reason in my opinion. This is because changing the way the engine presents code to those who learned JS or coding through the use of MV suddenly in MZ for a mostly visual benefit is not really bright from a development perspective.

I am sorry but what?

So you telling us that it's "miscommunication"? you go promote that the code was "Rewritten" to ES6 standard directly on the post.

it's a big let down tbh
rDB22D4.png

there it show written there. It hyped us programmer for nada.

and now we will probably write in ES6? but why write in ES6 standard if the code base is in ES5? No we can't without confusing any new people who are not as remotely familiar with the differences.
as they say: try to keep the programming similar to the code base so it integrates better and is more readable. (well IMO es6 is easier to read but shh)

I am sorry I sound aggressive it's just very annoying.

She probably means "A miscommunication" between the NA team and the JP team, it happens. You have to remember, Degica aren't the ones developing the engine, Kadokawa and Yoji Ojima are.

You answered my own point here. "It would confuse new people", it would also confuse people who learned JS for MV, through MV. You also say its easier to read, but that is subjective as you admit.

My point is, the engine hasn't released yet, NONE of this info actually affects any developer because no developer has begun plugin development for MZ yet. This isn't meant to be a personal attack against you or anything, but you do come off as if you're attacking the NA team as if they've made these decisions specifically to spite you.
 

Cyberhawk

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:ptea:
Programing speak flying over my head atm.
I'm like 80% certian there was talk of some ppl writing some plugins so release won't be as rough without them.
 

MZFan

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Ok, I got enough, I'll just cancel my preorder then, I've never been that disappointed in my entire life.
You are stating that you are revamping the whole code to ES6 standards and now that's obviously a lie.
You are not showing the database windows while it should be the most obvious thing to do.
Goodbye.
 

Anyone

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She probably means "A miscommunication" between the NA team and the JP team, it happens. You have to remember, Degica aren't the ones developing the engine, Kadokawa and Yoji Ojima are.

You answered my own point here. "It would confuse new people", it would also confuse people who learned JS for MV, through MV. You also say its easier to read, but that is subjective as you admit.

My point is, the engine hasn't released yet, NONE of this info actually affects any developer because no developer has begun plugin development for MZ yet. This isn't meant to be a personal attack against you or anything, but you do come off as if you're attacking the NA team as if they've made these decisions specifically to spite you.
Well, @nio kasgami does have a point though...

RMZ was announced as being fully ES6, and that it's been 5 years of rewriting RMV into RMZ and a lot of effort being expended to upgrade the code to ES6.

Plugins will break, a lot won't function directly, but that was necessary to get it to ES6.

Now it looks like it's not ES6: it's kinda some ES6, but other parts not so much.
Classes, which are easier and more comprehensible than prototype usage and have additional uses (https://coherent-labs.com/posts/es6-standard-with-babel-js/) didn't make it in because it'd be hard to use...but the arrow function, which confuses JS veterans to this day made it in, even though it's only useful when you're using anonymous function - and it's *definitely* not going to make things easier for JS beginners and veterans. (At least at first. Just like with classes, once you learn the benefits, you get benefits, such as a more natural use of "this". But the same argument for or against classes applies for or against the arrow function)

So a simpler class system instead of prototype would confuse people, but the arrow function won't?

And saying "well, it hasn't been released yet" is a bit like saying: "Well, wait to see what you've preordered."
Doesn't affect me, 'cause I haven't, but I imagine there's a whole lot of people who don't want to be surprised that despite the marketing promising an ES6 totally overhauled engine...they get a somewhat improved ES5 RMV.

Not saying that's what will happen. I don't know what's in RMZ, haven't seen the code. But if people, on release day, discover a lot of old ES5 stuff & barely altered code in something that was marketed as absolutely overhauled...

The people who invested a lot of money and preordered based on that won't be pleased.

I don't think nio kasgami is being aggressive here either. I think that's the kind of response that you get when someone who was hyped up & interested & probably preordered gets blindsided by something that hasn't been mentioned at any point in time during all the marketing.
 

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There's only 13 arrow functions in the files they shared and they are all used for callbacks so those should be quite simple even for people who are not very familiar with them.

I think it's odd to not convert things to class syntax. I can't really think of any reason not to and it's really not hard to do, even an online converter could do the trick.

Then there's things like the arguments object that shouldn't be used anymore (it even uses array destructuring on the same method that uses arguments so why not just use ...args?)

And then there's this:

8rBdN5L.png


what's the point of including a deprecated method on the very first version of a software that does not intend to keep compatibility with old stuff?
 

nio kasgami

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alright alright, I do admit after rereading what I wrote was wrongly worded and seemed to be directed toward the NA team I just want to say one thing :

I am angry not against the NA team FAR away of that I think you doing an awesome job. And I am sorry I seemed angry on the spurt of the moment I let my disappointment hit and it sounded wrong.

I am sorry I know you working hard and this wasn't directed toward you guys. Wasn't my intention of attacking you.

As for ES6 or ES5 both work. I understand the point of staying understandable for people coming from MV.

It's just that we would have love a clarification if this was a miscommunication from both team.
AGAIN I don't blame you maybe you just learned it. but even if it's was an accident of COURSE people will get disappointed.

right now I am just disappointed. no I will not refund MZ but it does weight me that the JP team could have switched to ES6 which *in my personal opinion* is less typing and more clean than

Game_Something.prototype.command = function(){};

I just don't understand why the JP team decided to not switch to ES6 which is now the standard in js.
Especially if it's promote they rewritten everything's to the ground up.

Again I am sorry it took me by surprise I was very *hyped* for MZ excited to grab my hand for it but when hudel told me that it just hitted me in the face like a cold shower and took me by surprise.


AS for what I was saying about ES6 and ES5

it's fine to have a codebase in ES5 and we can do ES6

the problem come from the newbie to rm who wants to learn programming. Normally you look at how people does it right? (which I did in the past) then look the code base but now MOST and I can tell you will write in ES6 and when people will look the codebase and the plugins they will be like : why it's written differently?

This what I said that us Plugin dev will not e able to write in ES6 without clashing with the programming standard.

I am not sure my point get across well there.
 
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Kaliya

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There's only 13 arrow functions in the files they shared and they are all used for callbacks so those should be quite simple even for people who are not very familiar with them.

I think it's odd to not convert things to class syntax. I can't really think of any reason not to and it's really not hard to do, even an online converter could do the trick.

Then there's things like the arguments object that shouldn't be used anymore (it even uses array destructuring on the same method that uses arguments so why not just use ...args?)

And then there's this:

8rBdN5L.png


what's the point of including a deprecated method on the very first version of a software that does not intend to keep compatibility with old stuff?

People complaining about the lack of ES6 aren't looking at the bigger picture.

As I previously mentioned, changing how code is presented while may be a bit beneficial to those who program for a living (hey i'm one of them!). As it makes it a bit more in line with something that they may be used too. Doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do for the engine, as not everyone who uses the engine or codes for the engine, codes for a living. Even if they are a minority (who knows they may be, they may not be, its not like these statistics are tracked!). If people want to change the core code to use class syntax, as you said there are online converters, they're free to do so. Hell, we don't know if KDKW will do that for release even, this is only 0.9.5 and there are still a few weeks till release.

As for why would you include a deprecated function? This is for the same reason as to why they wouldn't make it "Full ES6". At the time of MV's release, the includes function didn't exists in JS yet. At least at the time of development that is (this is an assumption on my part). Not everyone codes for a living, not everyone who uses rm keeps up to date with the latest JS standards. Keeping the existence of said deprecated function is for these people, it does no harm to you does it?

Please try to look at the bigger picture, at whom this product is targeted for. Hobbyist, not exactly professional programmers who keep up to date and adapt to the latest standards whenever a change is made to them.
 
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Touchfuzzy

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If you want to blame someone for what was written in an earlier preview, I was the one who wrote it. Other people reviewed it, but I wrote it.

And as I've said before, I am not a programmer. I don't know JS (which may have helped lead to the confusion when I wrote that section of the announce). It uses ES6 where they felt it was an improvement.

But, on the other hand, the API does not give a full picture of the code. Ripping it apart to try to nitpick what is going on. It's like trying to describe an elephant when all you can see is the trunk.

There is more documentation and stuff coming, though it will probably not be ready until release. Additionally tweaks and bug fixes in the code is still ongoing.
 

TheoAllen

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I code for a living and I still use a deprecated function from 10 years ago because of, well... requirement :(

And I'm probably one of the rarest people who actually skeptical about ES6 syntax. Prototype syntax is ugly but it is more robust because of how javascript works. ES6 class syntax sugar is nice and all, but Javascript does not behave like most of the object-oriented programming. I had been worrying about it since I know it just syntax sugar, and my guess was true. Look at the problem by using class syntax presented by Hime here.
 

Tsukihime

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it's fine to have a codebase in ES5 and we can do ES6

the problem come from the newbie to rm who wants to learn programming. Normally you look at how people does it right? (which I did in the past) then look the code base but now MOST and I can tell you will write in ES6 and when people will look the codebase and the plugins they will be like : why it's written differently?

This what I said that us Plugin dev will not e able to write in ES6 without clashing with the programming standard.

I am not sure my point get across well there.

They'll see the prototype stuff. Then they see the cute class stuff.

Then they'll be better programmers because they see two ways of doing it.
Also, didn't we just spend like a day trying to "fix" that alias code, when it worked perfectly well in "old ES5" format? The hacks we have to do just to be able to do simple method aliasing to save a couple key strokes lol
 

Hudell

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People complaining about the lack of ES6 aren't looking at the bigger picture.

As I previously mentioned, changing how code is presented while may be a bit beneficial to those who program for a living (hey i'm one of them!). As it makes it a bit more in line with something that they may be used too. Doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do for the engine, as not everyone who uses the engine or codes for the engine, codes for a living. Even if they are a minority (who knows they may be, they may not be, its not like these statistics are tracked!). If people want to change the core code to use class syntax, as you said there are online converters, they're free to do so. Hell, we don't know if KDKW will do that for release even, this is only 0.9.5 and there are still a few weeks till release.

As for why would you include a deprecated function? This is for the same reason as to why they wouldn't make it "Full ES6". At the time of MV's release, the includes function didn't exists in JS yet. At least at the time of development that is (this is an assumption on my part). Not everyone codes for a living, not everyone who uses rm keeps up to date with the latest JS standards. Keeping the existence of said deprecated function is for these people, it does no harm to you does it?

Please try to look at the bigger picture, at whom this product is targeted for. Hobbyist, not exactly professional programmers who keep up to date and adapt to the latest standards whenever a change is made to them.

Then you'll have to continue using ES5 for as long as it works and then when you're finally forced to change it, you'll have even more users who will have to make the switch. It would have been much better to switch to the easier thing now instead of later, but whatever.

The thing about the deprecated method is that it just feels random. It's one deprecated method while others were simply removed. What's different about this one?

And while I agree that rpg maker is mostly a toy and not intended to be used seriously, that is not the official message.
 
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When there's a will, there's a lifehack. :ninja:

Before i mess with battle UI further, does it look decent enough? :hswt:
Free MZ? That's good. I should go try it out then.
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