RPG Maker MZ, Preview #6: MV Trinity Resource Pack Previews!

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nio kasgami

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TBH I don't event bothered to read the post since jesus it's way to long for nothing.

and as I said it's a one time purchases that come with a lots of resources that would actually equal you a good 300$ in the assets store or purchased by an artist...so I think the pricing is fair.
 

Crusha

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You're not being anything except kinda prickly.
I'd hate to be your brain when someone brings it to your attention of what a worker's union aims for. I have no wishes for setting the foundation of such a thing. And to extend upon [your sentiment], the Americans who chose to stop paying excessively high taxes on tea. Just easier to shut-up than to be prickly, right? There's honorable practices, and dishonorable -- I simply take the side that businesses should act honorable. The golden rule.

The way you initially approached the problem was not very great in the first place.
@Touchfuzzy -- any information on this? I don't believe I recall seeing it answered. Thank you for your time.
I leave it to Touchfuzzy to respond to you again or not.
And you are now presenting the [passive] implication that what I have presented is out of line, and in need of reprimanding.

I'm not taking any sides here, mind you.
I leave it to Touchfuzzy to respond to you again or not.
Definitely sounds like impartial.


TBH I don't event bothered to read the post since jesus it's way to long for nothing.
Again, extremely honorable behavior. Just presume anyone typing any form of ethical discussion is to be immediately dismissed. Or again, a man defending truth itself, that is to say, his very word, is just a fool to be dismissed entirely. I'd hate to have you be thrown back-in-time to where you have to be bored by the likes of ethics being discussed, perhaps by people like Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, etc.. If my arguments are unsound, show me they're wrong. Wait -- you just said you can't even be bothered to read something; how am I to take someone seriously when they can't even read something? Should I give you respect, when you can't respect I?
 

Cyberhawk

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You gotta admit though. it IS rather long. Despite me actually liking how you presented your points.
Can't help but find it a wee bit pretentious. (Nothing wrong with that. Not that big of a deal for me.)
But it doesn't really need to drag on either.
 

nio kasgami

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oh boi just chill out
why I don't read long text? it's because I am non-native English and long text are just confusing to me but of course you go and assume that I must be such an unrespectful person blah blah. Before making your stupid assumption trying to call out for me being unrespectful and directly insult me (I may not be full native English but I can PERFECTLY understand the tone in writing mind you)

Take into considerations and ask yourself the person wouldn't be bothered to read an essay.

THere's a matter of 'learn to be concise in your word and not putting to much word for a simple matter.
Also I didn't attack you I just said the opinion was too long so stop jumping on your high horse and chill out.
 

nio kasgami

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@BloodletterQ
Same I said my opinion I will not bother much anymore tbh
but anyway while I was fiddling with the coding for the typescript documentation. I found some interesting class that is quite interesting such as :

The removal of Sprite_Base (which was handling animation)

They added a new superclass named Sprite_Clickable who manage every child class so it's now possible to easily create 'Sprite' Button or you call them clickable button.
it's pretty nice.

File are now Saved using asynchronous and use a Zip library named Pako? also have an optimized Offline storage system named LocalForage.
 

Kupotepo

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@nio kasgami, so you say the MZ allows you to create both cloud and offline saves at the system?
 

nio kasgami

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@nio kasgami, so you say the MZ allows you to create both cloud and offline saves at the system?
Yes and no its more saved as storage into the browser.
While the offline will be saved as most how we dit in mv.

For the cloud part theres a promise system for webgl but i am not 100% sure but with so some thinkering sending data through the pc to a "cloud" wouldnt be hard since javascript library does have nice support for online saving
 

Kupotepo

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@nio kasgami, thank you for answering. If the cloud based saves happens, that would be a great improvement to mobile development for sure lol.

 
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DoubleX

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Why not give the purchaser an incentive if they want this pack? This pack costs over 50% of what an RMMV buyer pays for the MZ engine itself. There's no bundle offering RMMZ and Trinity on the steam store; that seems highly dishonorable in regards to customer-consideration.
I didn't say you specifically were dishonorable, I said the actions of not providing a bundle that has RMMZ and Trinity is dishonorable [in regards to customer consideration]. It's basically trying to pigeon-hole potential customers into buying a bundle that includes 4-6 things, which many customers simply wouldn't want. It's why I specifically asked, "will it be offered in a pack for MZ + Trinity Pack, just those 2, for those who don't want giant bundles with 5 packs".
And at the end of the day, just because you're creating words, doesn't make them true. Imagine yourself as the lawyer trying to sell the argument/lie that with the release of MZ, they're under no obligation to release it without bugs. People know whether or not such a practice would be legally moralistic, but also ethically moralistic. Steam has countless publishers who exercise the practice of offering a base game, and also including 1 DLC [bundled] at a reduced price. Furthermore, if there are multiple DLC's, they often also have a bundle which includes those multiple DLC's, at an even greater discount (as a greater incentive to buy the bundle with all, instead of a bundle with the Base-product + 1 DLC). These practices are exercised because it's considered not only mutually beneficial (it gets more sales), it's respectable and honorable in regards to the consideration of the potential customers.

There are lawyers who would maintain your position (that is to say, being under no obligation to act moralistic for customer satisfaction), in regards to the [intentional] obsolescence and intentional points of failures on things like washers, dryers, light-bulbs, etc.. They will say 'behold -- the warranty on these things was for 2 years, and 2 years and 1 month it took for them to break down; we made honorable by our sale'. Yet, they have intentionally made obsolescence come to fruition with points of failure, so it would get them further sales. This is very dishonorable practice, yet it's done. This discussion has been a frequent occurence amongst professionals in those fields. Just because you believe a company is under no obligation to act in consideration of the customer, it doesn't mean your argument is correct. It seems to reinforce an infantile point of view, that dishonorable decisions pigeon-holing customers into $145 bundles is moralistic. It's anything but.

Multiple ice-cream stands exist throughout this world. Some will sell a small vanilla cone for $2; a medium vanilla cone for $3, and a large vanilla cone for $4. They charge $1/per topping. They have a special (a bundle). It's the most commonly requested bundle. They offer a large vanilla cone with sprinkles, for $4. So instead of it being $5, it's $4. They've reduced the cost by -20%. It increases their sales, and makes customers happy (that is to say, they take consideration with regards to the customer). This is what an honorable approach is. A dishonorable approach is when customers ask for a large vanilla cone with sprinkles, and then telling them if they want a special which includes sprinkles, they have to buy their supreme large vanilla cone special, which includes Chocolate candy, Raisins, Pecans, Caramel, Gummy bears, Oreos, and Sprinkles. Yes, a customer can buy a large vanilla cone and add sprinkles for $1, but some businesses actually proceed moralistically, offering the most commonly available special [requested] that they could make (a large vanilla cone with sprinkles -- IE RMMZ + Trinity). Trying to pigeon-hole an up-sale for things the customer does not want, is dishonorable. Businesses do it, and competent people know it's dishonorable.
Before agreeing or disagreeing with you, I want to make sure I fathomed your arguments first, so I'll try to imagine what could happen if I were to apply the logic behind them.
But before that, if I fathomed correctly, your logic is the following:
As long as a business can do so sustainably, it should provide all common options as single units, and all common combinations of those common options should be bundled with at least small discounts(the more options that bundle includes, the greater the discount is), because that's how honorable businesses are run.
I already own MV and I'm still thinking whether I'll pre order MZ, and I don't think the extra MV copy will have any use in my case(but it's useful for those not having MV to have time to pick up before MZ's released and those having friends wanting MV). While the 20% discount's already nice, especially given that the base price's also cheap(at least excluding the fact that Covid-19 is hitting us hard), I'd still complain if I were to apply your logic, because:
There should be a total of 30% discount that doesn't have that extra MV copy in order for RM to be honorable enough.
It's because:
1. Judging from the past RM, MV isn't going to be even close to free after MZ released for a while(and the whole RM franchise would quickly fall if previous RM were that cheap as many RM users would just wait for several years to save money on their side), so that 20% discount could be definitely more than 20% if that free MV copy wasn't included.
2. It's obviously a common combination for the pre order discount to not have the free MV copy and be even cheaper, as many of those going for the pre order already have MV, and many of those will have no use of that extra copy.
Therefore, according to your logic, the 20% pre order discount is itself at least slightly dishonorable as well.

Actually, your logic can also be applied to the bundled MZ Character Generator Pack(quite some RM users rarely/never bother with character generators) and even MV and MZ Remix Music Pack(some RM users are going for custom music anyway), so applying to your logic to the full extent, the MZ pre order can end up something like this:
1. The original 20% discount
2. 30% discount without free MV copy, MZ Character Generator Pack or MV and MZ Remix Music Pack
3. 40% discount with just free MV copy, MZ Character Generator Pack or MV and MZ Remix Music Pack
4. 50% discount with just MZ and nothing more
Well, maybe I've to broaden my horizons, but I've never seen a pre order with a 50% discount, and I seriously doubt whether it'll work at all(unless the base price's ridiculously high, but that's even more dishonorable, especially according to your logic) lol

Now, let's consider the following MZ options on their own:
1. MZ Pre order(With MZ Character Generator Pack, MV and MZ Remix Music Pack and a free MV copy) - Around 63.99USD
2 MZ Cover Art Characters Pack - Around 14.25USD
3. MV Trinity Resource Pack - Around 35.99USD
4. 3D Particle Effect Pack - Around 17.49USD
5. Dark Fantasy Resource Pack - Around 20.49USD
6. Essentials Set Z - Around 24.99USD
Currently the following sales options are provided:
- Just 1 and nothing more
- 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 with an extra 15% discount in total
- 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 with an extra 10% discount in total
Let's also say that you do have solid evidence(like a detailed marketing research) to prove that just wanting 1 and 3 is indeed a common combination, so according to your logic, the following bundle should also be offered:
1 + 3 with an extra 5% discount in total
But wait, is it the only common combination? What about 1 + 2, 1 + 4, 1 + 5 and 1 + 6, should there be a bundle for each of them with an extra 5% discount in total per bundle?
Also, what about 1 + 2 + 3, 1 + 2 + 4, 1 + 2 + 5, ..., 1 + 5 + 6? And 1 + 2 + 3 + 5, 1 + 2 + 3 + 6, 1 + 3 + 4 + 5, etc? Are they also common combinations?
What's more, if bundling 2 common options has an extra 5% discount, should bundling 3 has an extra 10%, should 4 has 15%, 5 has 20%, etc?

So it's clear that:
1. On one hand, you logic can only be applied to some extents, or it'd be clear that it's just impossible for the business to be sustainable, unless you're talking about very large cap companies(like 3A ones) having tons of financial liquidity, which simply isn't the case for both Degica and Kadokawa(and usually such large cap companies are publicly listed ones, meaning that they've to take care of the best interests of the shareholders as well, or those companies could risk capital chain ruptures when most shareholders sell their stocks and almost no one buy).
2. On the other hand, giving discounts to the less common combinations but not the more common ones will only be even more dishonorable, especially according to your logic.
Combining, it means that discounts for common combinations need to be prioritized, so if you're to claim that not providing the bundle of just MZ pre order and MV Trinity Resource Pack is dishonorable, you need to use concrete numbers to prove that this combination's indeed very common, perhaps even more common than those already provided by Degica/Kadokawa.

Of course, insisting to apply your logic as much as possible can still be done, at the cost of increasing the base price, but it'd be even more dishonorable, especially according to your logic, to increase the base price just to provide discounts for every common combinations.
While I don't know if this approach will actually increase sales and lead to more RM users and more of them more satisfied, let's just ask you this:
If RM do have a bundled 10% discount for the MZ pre order and the MV Trinity Resource Pack, but the base price of both increases by 10%, will you still go for it without complaining(now it's just a symbolic 1% discount in total)?
In a more general sense, the following 3 stakeholders are involved when bundling common combinations with discounts:
1. The option provider
2. Those going for common combination set A but not B
3. Those not going for common combination set B but not A

It's actually a trilemma when trying to satisfy all 3, because:
- Satisfying 1 + 2 - While 1 will still be sustainable and 2 will be happy with the bundled discounts addressing their common combinations, many of 3 will complain about why their needs aren't satisfied with bundled discount as well, especially when they feel that theirs are even more common and it's hard to disprove that in the pre order phase, all due to the fact that trying to disprove that will likely involve disclosing confidential data, and almost no option provider will have the balls to do that.
- Satisfying 1 + 3 - Basically the same as satisfying 1 + 2, except that 2 and 3 are reversed.
- Satisfying 2 + 3 - While both 2 and 3 will be happy, 1 will hardly be sustainable without increasing the base price, and doing so would make both 2 and 3 unhappy, and thus risk damaging the sales and even reputations of 1, causing 1 to be unsatisfied as well.

So usually 1 will give bundled discounts for the most common combinations, and those wanting those combinations will be happy, while those wanting the less common combinations won't be as satisfied as the majority(then it's up to 1 to reasonably appease them to control the potential reputation and sales damage), as it's generally the best balance to resolve the trilemma, meaning that it should be honorable enough in most cases.
Therefore, again, if you're to claim that it's dishonorable not to have a bundled discount of the MZ pre order and the MV Trinity Resource Pack, you need to make the undeniable case that it's indeed one of the most common combinations first.
Honorable vs dishonorable isn't just black and white but rather a spectrum, so it's important to measure the amount of dishonor when claiming something's dishonorable.
For instance:
the warranty on these things was for 2 years, and 2 years and 1 month it took for them to break down
Is very, very dishonorable(actually illegal as well in my city), because it violates the reasonable expectations among normal customers and they can only know that after the fact, meaning that it's so misleading that it's effectively cheating in some legal sectors, as it's just ridiculous for customers to always ask for everything before they buy anything(doing so would cause the transaction costs to raise to absurd levels), not to mention that deliberately making products having its service lives way shorter than it can reasonably be is a massive waste of resources, huge offense to the environment and immense troubles for customers when they've to buy new ones much, much more frequently than they normally have to.

Whereas not having a bundled discount for the MZ pre order with the MV Trinity Resource Pack, even if it were still dishonorable according to your logic, is by no way comparable to the "the warranty on these things was for 2 years, and 2 years and 1 month it took for them to break down" example, because the digital equivalent would be at least to the level of "you bought the cheap main game only to find that you need to buy an expensive DLC as well or the main game would be so lacking and buggy that it's effectively broken", and RM not providing that bundle is nowhere near that level of dishonor, at least because there's nothing misleading in the sales options and RM isn't trying to deliberately cheat their customers(the ES6 standard thing is just a miscommunication after all), meaning that you've enough correct information to make educated judgment before you actually pay a penny.

So, while it'd be ideal if everything's always 100% honorable, in reality it's still a luxury that not many can afford even if your logic were correct, so the best one can do is to be as honorable as they can in practice, and reasonably appease those still thinking that it's not honorable enough.
You also mentioned:
Steam has countless publishers who exercise the practice of offering a base game, and also including 1 DLC [bundled] at a reduced price. Furthermore, if there are multiple DLC's, they often also have a bundle which includes those multiple DLC's, at an even greater discount (as a greater incentive to buy the bundle with all, instead of a bundle with the Base-product + 1 DLC).
But what exactly are those publishers? Are they of the 3A class? Does Degica/Kadokawa have the same luxury as those publishers do? Also, the base price of the products from those publishers need to be taken into account, and I wonder how many potential RM users want Degica/Kadokawa to follow the practice of those publishers if it ends up increasing the base price, and how many of them will think that it'd be even more dishonorable than not having all common combinations covered by bundled discounts.
To conclude, I doubt the feasibility and sustainability in the case of RM if your logic's applied there, especially to a very large or even just the full extent, and I personally don't think that the amount of dishonor, if it exists at all, is as serious as what you think.
It's not to say that I totally disagree with all of your arguments, but just that maybe the reality in RM still can't be as ideal as what you've pictured yet, and since you're the one claiming that it's dishonorable for RM not to have a bundle discount with the MZ pre order and MV Trinity Resource Pack, you've the burden of proof when it comes to the business practicality for RM to have this option as well(of course, RM also has the burden to reasonably appease you if they want even fewer unhappy potential customers and further improve the PR image, but I'd say all these are business decisions that I don't know enough to judge in this case) :)
Normally, potential customers can simply point out what's lacking for them and giving some suggestions that can satisfy them(along with some expressions of personal disappointments), all without having to prove anything, but it's different when they claim that it's factually dishonorable("it makes many potential customers feel that it's dishonorable" and "it's objectively dishonorable" are completely different things both conceptually and how the cases should be handled).
 
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Touchfuzzy

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I will say I fundamentally misunderstood something he said. I didn't realize what he was asking for was a bundle with JUST MZ and the Trinity pack. Which was why I was confused. We have two packs that include both!

So I do apologize for saying you were wrong.

I'm still not sure where the idea that we are doing something dishonorable for not having that exact bundle is though.
 

nio kasgami

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@Touchfuzzy I know it was kinda glanced over but do you think you could show us more of the Event List? Like does it provide just a list of name or it provide also coordinate and ID etc?
 

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@Crusha "Karen" is a derogatory term for consumers with unrealistic expectations, an over-inflated sense of self-entitlement, and a lack of manners. They falsely believe they have a moral and intellectual high ground and they often spout absolute nonsense at length in an attempt justify their warped perceptions. I'd say that describes you incredibly accurately.

@DoubleX put it in much more detail than I would, but essentially your argument's flawed because it hinges on the belief that Degica should provide you with a tailored combo pack at a discount when they're under no such obligation. DoubleX has gone to great lengths to show the impracticalities.
 
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BloodletterQ

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I’m guessing that even just MZ and the Trinity comes out less than one of the packs?
 

DoubleX

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I’m guessing that even just MZ and the Trinity comes out less than one of the packs?
It's around 100USD, while the packs cost around 150USD and 120USD respectively.
If there were a 5% - 10% discount, @Crusha could save 5-10 USD, and I don't think anyone would be this pretentious just for that, so I think he/she's reacting so strongly about not having the bundle discount mainly not because of the money, but because of violating one of his/her most deeply held core principles and values, and it seems to me that he/she sincerely believes that his/her stances here are really grounded :)
Of course, how much his/her principles and values can be realistically and rightfully applied in this case, and how effective and efficient the ways he/she tries to point out and "correct" the violations are entirely different matters ;)
 
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The Stranger

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@Touchfuzzy The Steam page says that the Trinity pack includes a whole bunch of generator parts. Are these MV or MZ style parts? I'm guessing MV, but it doesn't hurt to ask. :)
 

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@Crusha "Karen" is a derogatory term ...
-Trimmed-
You've now publicly acknowledged that you've resorted to a derogatory term (confer: ad hominem), and instead of apologizing when I brought it to your attention that such usage is questionable, you've double-downed. This is consistent with my original stance, that you're trying to ruse an emotionally charged response. Should I walk down the stairs a little, and meet you half-way, and I [myself] start resorting to derogatory terms? Should I honestly take you seriously, and give you respect? Should I set the precedent that the usage of derogatory terms is acceptable, and start picking from the multitude [of them] available, so that I act consistently in a manner that you consider socially acceptable? With your precedent set, it would be acceptable for I to use the same words you chose to use at I, 'stop being an absolute Karen', and imagine if I replaced Karen with a derogatory term (let's say the derogatory N-word for black people), and that would be 'acceptable' apparently. Stop being an absolute N-word. See how shameful that would be? At this time, it seems 8 others have clicked Like for your post, meaning you certainly have the approval of your peers for using derogatory terms. I would argue if you feel validated because your peers agree with your stance, than their moral compass is consistent with yours, and they're guilty by association for associating with these types of beliefs (that is to say, your type of belief-system, that the usage of derogatory terms is acceptable). Not only that, but you have also gone and Haha'ed the vast majority of my posts here, which [arguably] is a form of [passive] harassment. But again, you've shown that you are someone to be respected. You've shown when you have a disagreement with my arguments, that you show where my arguments are wrong; wait -- you've consistently shown you're incapable of doing that, and instead, try to derail my arguments.

-Trimmed-
Now, in regards to your post. I have to ask myself how much time I wish to spend, addressing your post. You obviously took time to create something, so I wish to respectfully acknowledge it. I have fully read it. It did not seem very far into reading it, I was already seeing inconsistencies with your arguments and approach, even of trying to re-characterize and out-right mischaracterize my arguments. Not only that, you expanded on thoughts which were considerably inconsistent with my arguments, and as a whole, my beliefs. It is my belief, that if I spend an hour or 2 trying to remedy this in a respectful way, it would be like getting a paper-graded report handed back with red-corrections everywhere. Now -- if you are adamant that I do this, I can. But at this time, to me, it seems questionable to fix your errors and attacks on my arguments.

My original posts to this thread were in regards to the MZ + Trinity question, as a bundle. I'm defending my honor, because I was called wrong, when it was [and is] verifiably true, that the bundle does not exist, as 2, as I originally asked. The respectable staff member, Touchfuzzy, has acknowledged that a mistake was made, and apologized, which is quite respectful and honorable. Touchfuzzy suggested of not necessarily understanding my usage [of making reference] that the business practice is dishonorable. As I presented, it is my belief that it is is dishonorable, because the pigeon-hole exists that by not providing what is [arguably] the standard base-line bundle of MZ + Trinity, it is [knowingly] at the customer's detriment, which I believe is [arguably] dishonorable. Yes, someone could try to make some stupid argument, that it's also to the detriment of the customer, to not have MZ provided for free, which is silly to even suggest. I believe it's dishonorable, because I think many companies would take a moralistic approach, and actually offer that bundle (as I gave the ice-cream analogy). Businesses exist to make profit. I'm not opposed to profit being made; obviously, I think RM is unique and enjoyable, or else I wouldn't be passionate in this regard. I think businesses with integrity would have set the precedent that the bundle of MZ + Trinity should be the baseline of a bundle, and offered as such. Staff members don't have to agree with that, the reader doesn't have to agree with that. It's my belief. I think it's dishonorable.

I'd be more than happy to let this go, under the condition people actually start acting like normal humans. The colors of a lot of people are being shown as they like posts which use derogatory terms. Touchfuzzy had enough integrity to apologize. I'm not going to sit here for the next 2 months, correcting attacks on I, or [obvious] forms of derailment and mischaractizations. If further sleights come my way, sure, maybe I'll address it for another day or 2. But eventually, enough is enough; I'll stop acknowledging this thread. So if people are so insecure that they need a 'whipping boy', I won't be correcting attacks on I, in a day or 2, so take all the cheap-shots you want then.
 

Lion Blade Soler

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@Touchfuzzy The Steam page says that the Trinity pack includes a whole bunch of generator parts. Are these MV or MZ style parts? I'm guessing MV, but it doesn't hurt to ask. :)
More than likely, they are MV generator parts. The explanation next to the mention of the MV generator parts said that "you can use these assets by switching with MZ's default assets", so that should be a strong hint that the generator parts are MV generator parts as MV generator parts are not compatible with MZ generator parts.
 

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So if people are so insecure that they need a 'whipping boy', I won't be correcting attacks on I, in a day or 2, so take all the cheap-shots you want then.

To other members:


Uh no, don't. We're done with name calling and insults. The conversation was between Crusha and Touchfuzzy, and unless either of them has something to say about it directly to the other, then this whole drama needs to be over.

@Crusha Perhaps if you need further clarification from Touchfuzzy or more information, a private conversation would be best.
 
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