RPG Maker Needs To Break Its' Limits

[BigEd781]

I'm willing to bet RM games could do very well on Xbox. If you look at the top-sellers in the indie RPG genre, most of the games are hardly better than RM games, quite the contrary. I wouldn't qualify them as "impressive" or anything. Last time I checked, the graphics were very retro, the art was subpar compared to what the best RM games deliver, the games themselves were short... nothing particularly ground-breaking or that a RM game can't do.

The feature would serve people who want to go commercial and are interested porting their games to new platforms. Again, it depends on the meaning you give to "wasted". It may be used only by a small percentage of makers, but for these, it would make a big difference.

There is an obvious flaw in your logic; the indie game developers don't use RPG Maker, they use more suitable platforms. The typical RM user cannot be compared to a typical indie game dev. A game developer who knows what he is doing would never chose RM as their framework. It's not about what can theoretically be done with RM, it is about what is practical and typical.

Because most people who use RM are essentially unskilled in game making, and as a result very, very few of them ever actually complete a game, I fail to see how you reach your conclusion. Again, the question is not "could an RM game theoretically do well in Xbox arcade?". Of course it could. The question is "is RM a practical development platform for creating and distributing XBox arcade games". There the answer is no because of its intended audience and capability.

As a further example, I know how to program. Now I like RM and all, but I started using it long before I was a programmer. If I set out to create a game today I would never, never consider RM for the job. It sacrifices power and flexibility for ease of use. This is a great thing as it means that pretty much anyone can pick it up quickly, but conversely, it is extremely limiting to someone with more experience and capability.

Not everybody treats it as a toy.

What people "treat it as" is irrelevant. "A rose by any other name"...

 

[Indinera]

There is an obvious flaw in your logic; the indie game developers don't use RPG Maker, they use more suitable platforms. The typical RM user cannot be compared to a typical indie game dev. A game developer who knows what he is doing would never chose RM as their framework. It's not about what can theoretically be done with RM, it is about what is practical and typical.

At the end of the day, what matters is the money you make. You wouldn't *not* call "indie dev" someone who makes a living out of his games and consequently is actually both a true independent and a true developer. That would be a flaw in your logic.

As a further example, I know how to program. Now I like RM and all, but I started using it long before I was a programmer. If I set out to create a game today I would never, never consider RM for the job. It sacrifices power and flexibility for ease of use.

RM is good for people who, exactly, don't know how to program. ^^

It gives the possibility to, say, good storytellers to create a game.

What people "treat it as" is irrelevant.

Correct. But what people can achieve with it, is relevant. You wouldn't call a toy something you can make money from.

EDIT to your ninja EDIT:

Because most people who use RM are essentially unskilled in game making, and as a result very, very few of them ever actually complete a game, I fail to see how you reach your conclusion. Again, the question is not "could an RM game theoretically do well in Xbox arcade?". Of course it could. The question is "is RM a practical development platform for creating and distributing XBox arcade games". There the answer is no because of its intended audience and capability.

Well my conclusion was that it would make a big difference for a small number of users. Both our statements can cohabit. ^^

Keep in mind these users are not to be overlooked, as they are walking ads for RM. Maybe little in number, but big in reach.

 

[sabao]

For better or for worse, we have RMers looking to go commercial. Not all of them are in the traditional sense 'developers', and I suppose that's what the software's for. It might not offer the power or flexibility of any other platform but it's gotten the job done for a lot of people here and hopefully Indinera can attest to its success commercially.

I'm still apprehensive about how well an RM-built game will fare against console titles (mostly because I only own a PS3, apparently XBLA seems to cater to a larger market). Still, this long standing stigma against commercial games made with RM needs to go.

 

[Shaz]

most people who use RM are essentially unskilled in game making, and as a result very, very few of them ever actually complete a game

The thing is, we are not talking about "most people who use RM" here. We are talking about a small group of people who wish to, or already are, making games commercially. These people have already done what "most people who use RM" cannot, will not, or have no desire to do. These people DO want to push RM to its limits and make it do things that others say are impossible or a waste of time.

Yes, there may be other ways to make games for other platforms, but do they come with an engine that already does most of what you need, and allows you to add to it to fill in the gaps? And do they come with heaps of resources that you can use in your commercial game? The things that make RM appealing for game development don't depend on the target platform.

The question is - can you make a fun game in RM? If the answer is yes, then there's no reason not to port it to ANY platform, if there's a way to do it. In the end, what it's made with doesn't matter. Whether it's a good game, does

the indie game developers don't use RPG Maker ... A game developer who knows what he is doing would never chose RM as their framework

A few of us must have taken a wrong turn somewhere

 

[BigEd781]

The question is - can you make a fun game in RM? If the answer is yes, then there's no reason not to port it to ANY platform...

Wrong; there are many reasons not to. It is a relatively complex feature to implement. It costs a lot of money and time. It may also require a partnership with MS (or the developer of whatever platform you are porting to). If only a small portion of the userbase will ever put it to use then it is a bad feature, period.

Again, not every nice-to-have idea makes for a good feature. This is a huge consideration that I think you guys are missing (and my main argument against it a page or two). You're talking about sucha small cross-section of skilled RM users who haven't taken the leap into a more serious platform. A complex feature that serves such a small audience is generally a bad idea.

 

[DeusEx]

A few words from man from real world game development (and please sorry for my English language skills):

RPGMaker is great tool! (In fact the only one problem I see today it is his current battle system.)

And if you can make a good story (game) via RPGMaker and build your name on PC market then you can always find a publisher/company who will help you with multi-platform development like in this example http://www.cuttherope.ie/dev/

Please, believe me, you don't need Android market and etc.as starter point. You can not even imagine how many problems have even the big publishers with porting their games on multiple platforms. If at least 10% of these efforts will be spent on improving the PC version of PRGMaker - it will be much better and more useful to everyone.

It is a relatively complex feature to implement. It costs a lot of money and time. If only a small portion of the userbase will ever put it to use then it is a bad feature, period

Absolutely agreed.

 

[Indinera]

If only a small portion of the userbase will ever put it to use then it is a bad feature, period.

If this small portion weights a lot more than the rest of the users, it's a good feature.

What better promotion for RM than having games made with it released on other platforms?

They could attract more and more new users if the small portion helps its recognition and spreads the word out.

Also you seemingly totally skipped my reply... h34r:

Please, believe me, you don't need Android market and etc.as starter point.

Not a starting point, but a nice way to increase the income generated by a game.

 

[BigEd781]

If this small portion weights a lot more than the rest of the users, it's a good feature.

Ok, but... they don't, right? I mean, how could they? At work we will occasionally implement a feature purely for a single customer, even if we think its utility questionable. This happens when said customer is placing a $1,000,000+ order contingent upon said feature. In that case, sure; go ahead and do it because it makes business sense. I don't see that situation here.

I don't hate the feature, I'm just approaching it as I would approach a feature request at work. To me, every feature starts out with -1000 points (for example). To be implemented it must get into the positive by making strong business arguments in favor of it. I will be the first to admit that I could be wrong as well; I don't have all of the information I would normally have available to me. However, I have been in the community for near a decade, and that has given me a sense of how the tool is used and by whom it is typically used. Aside from a small group of very talented users, I don't see the typical user publishing a game on another platform.

Also you seemingly totally skipped my reply... h34r:

Nah, I just felt that my next reply addressed yours as well.

 

[Indinera]

it makes business sense. I don't see that situation here.

I think it would help giving free promotion to the product. It can't be bad for them (Enterbrain) if the word gets out that RM games are on Xbox/Android/Ouya/Whatever, that some people are successful with it etc. More people will be curious about it, want to check it, maybe make a game themselves.

I don't hate the feature, I'm just approaching it as I would approach a feature request at work.

Me too! I think you need to consider the promo it could generate.

 

[Tsukihime]

What if someone wrote their own tools to get it to run on some other platform and distributed them freely without EB's consent?

Will the author be punished under various IP rights and whatnot?

 

[crimcrim]

I don't comprehend the hate RPG Maker gets. Well... I can comprehend the hate VX got it's awful, but Ace is a powerful tool. I agree with Ed in the vein of it being inferior if you have actual programming knowledge but at the same time I also disagree with him. If you want to make a traditional JRPG Ace is a great tool. That's what it was built for anyway.

There was a great point made before also. As much as I would love a converter made for other platforms its absolutely nonsensical from a monetary perspective for E!. Look at it this way. The amount of money and development they would have to put forward to make such a converter would be outstanding. Now, why would they put all that money and time into said converter? To make a substantial profit with it. Now let's look at the RM Community. How many completed games are there? Very few. How many commercial games are there? Even fewer. If I was an E! exec I would laugh at this idea proposal.

That being said, I do welcome it.

 

[Indinera]

Have we got an idea of the amount of work it actually represents?

To make a substantial profit with it

Aside from the promotion factor I talked about, it would definitely be a selling/bullet point as well. Which normally translates into more sales.

 

[BigEd781]

I think it would help giving free promotion to the product. It can't be bad for them (Enterbrain) if the word gets out that RM games are on Xbox/Android/Ouya/Whatever, that some people are successful with it etc. More people will be curious about it, want to check it, maybe make a game themselves.

Me too! I think you need to consider the promo it could generate.

But again, you're talking in theoretical terms. What is the net affect here? How much of this positive marketing will it actually garner? If only three games are ever successful will it be worth it? At what point does this promotional value outweigh development, support, and licensing costs? You can't make serious business decisions based on vague generalities, you need concrete evidence that this feature will in fact be beneficial to the company.

I don't comprehend the hate RPG Maker gets. Well... I can comprehend the hate VX got it's awful, but Ace is a powerful tool. I agree with Ed in the vein of it being inferior if you have actual programming knowledge but at the same time I also disagree with him. If you want to make a traditional JRPG Ace is a great tool. That's what it was built for anyway.

Yes, I agree! We don't disagree on this; you can certainly make an awesome game with RM. Again though, the theoretical potential is not the driving force behind a decision like this; you need to appreciate reality. In reality it is a beginner's tool first and foremost. As a result, the vast majority of its users play around with it for a while, but don't ever complete a game. Of those that do most are very poor. We're talking about a very small number of really good games made with RM in practice.

 

[Espon]

I doubt too many people would be buying something that allows them to run their game on other platforms unless they actually complete their game...which many people do not. It's one thing for people to buy the program to fool around and try to make something, actually releasing a game is an entirely different matter. I doubt Enterbrain would throw in a feature like that for free considering the time it would take to develop it. It would be different if RPG Maker was programmed from the ground up with other platforms in mind, but that's not the case.

I'm not against the feature; I would love to be able to release something beyond just the PC market. However, it just doesn't feel like it would be worth the investment for the company.

 

[Shaz]

Wrong; there are many reasons not to. It is a relatively complex feature to implement. It costs a lot of money and time. It may also require a partnership with MS (or the developer of whatever platform you are porting to). If only a small portion of the userbase will ever put it to use then it is a bad feature, period.

Again, not every nice-to-have idea makes for a good feature. This is a huge consideration that I think you guys are missing (and my main argument against it a page or two). You're talking about sucha small cross-section of skilled RM users who haven't taken the leap into a more serious platform. A complex feature that serves such a small audience is generally a bad idea.

Okay, are you talking about Enterbrain making the tools to export it to other platforms, or about RM developers using the tool to make xbox games? No matter WHAT tool you use, if you want to publish on xbox you're going to have to spend money with Microsoft. That has nothing to do with whether you use RM or not.

RM developers haven't taken the leap because so far, there has been no easy way to do so. If EB makes a way, many who are already selling PC RM games will make use of it (I mean the serious ones, who are already making a healthy income from RM games). Maybe there are some who have not bought RM because you can only make games for PC with it? I know the ability to port to other platforms was a big drawcard for IGM.

If EB intends to make these exporters, I will not try to stop them, and I will use them when they are available. Whether it's a good business decision for them, does not concern me - I am not going to tell them to NOT do something that's going to benefit me, just because I don't see them making a lot of money out of it. And we're only assuming they're not going to make a lot of money out of it. There's got to be a reason why they're considering it in the first place. Maybe this is a stepping stone to make the NEXT RM multi-platform - so in effect, they're making money out of it now by releasing the exporters, and again later when they release the next RM that has the same exporters built in. So it could end up being quite a lucrative option for them, since they'll be earning twice for doing the work once.

What if someone wrote their own tools to get it to run on some other platform and distributed them freely without EB's consent?

Will the author be punished under various IP rights and whatnot?

If someone developed a tool to grab data from RM files and convert it into a non-RM system so it would run on another platform, I don't believe there's an issue. They would have to remove any RTP-based resources and not actually use the .r?data? files in the final product. I'm not sure how they'd go with the distribution issue ... is it much different to people who've written exporters to convert VX games to VX Ace format?

 

[Indinera]

Maybe there are some who have not bought RM because you can only make games for PC with it?

That's exactly what I said. Exportability (?) is a great selling point.

The promo effect has good chances to work, too. There are a lot of commercial RM games available on PC. A lot of them would have chances to do well if they could ever be ported onto other platforms. Thrown in the balance the fact that the competition is not exactly awe-inspiring on Xbox... you get the idea.

 

[BigEd781]

RM developers haven't taken the leap because so far, there has been no easy way to do so. If EB makes a way, many who are already selling PC RM games will make use of it (I mean the serious ones, who are already making a healthy income from RM games). Maybe there are some who have not bought RM because you can only make games for PC with it? I know the ability to port to other platforms was a big drawcard for IGM.

That's exactly what I said. Exportability (?) is a great selling point.

The promo effect has good chances to work, too. There are a lot of commercial RM games available on PC. A lot of them would have chances to do well if they could ever be ported onto other platforms. Thrown in the balance the fact that the competition is not exactly awe-inspiring on Xbox... you get the idea.

Well, yeah, I'm sure there have been some... but that's not their market. Similarly, I'm sure Fritos have lost some potential sales because their chips don't taste like Doritos, but that's not their market either. Their market is people who like Fritos.

 

[DeusEx]

Indinera, I can suggest you found and read interview with "Cthulhu Saves the World" creators about their unsuccesfull XBox Live Indie Game publishing (and how they go to PC after this).

 

[Indinera]

Indinera, I can suggest you found and read interview with "Cthulhu Saves the World" creators about their unsuccesfull XBox Live Indie Game publishing (and how they go to PC after this).

I know already what happened (I'm quite informed in this business). Hence why I said it would be a nice way to generate additional income. If you go commercial, you are going to welcome anything that can help you develop your business.

Also Zeboyd got very lucky to be picked up by Steam. Their Xbox sales may have remained far ahead of their PC sales had it not been for Steam's push.

Well, yeah, I'm sure there have been some... but that's not their market. Similarly, I'm sure Fritos have lost some potential sales because their chips don't taste like Doritos, but that's not their market. Their market is people who like Fritos.

Things are not set in stone.

XP paved the way to commercial games, this could be a way to strengthen the base for the future.

Your comparison is also unaccurate since you are talking about "liking" (Their market is people who like Fritos) and I see no reason why Xbox users wouldn't like RM games, so no reason why Enterbrain wouldn't consider this option. It's not a matter of it being their market or not (it obviously isn't for the time being), it's a new market and a way to expand.

 

[Pegasus]

I'm not that interested in Rpgmaker games on the xbox but I'm for an export tool to the Android market instead. The biggest advantage would probably be portability of the games which mean the gamers will be able to play anytime anywhere and that's where rpg maker games can be commercially successful.

The console market is full of better games and I don't think the mentality of these gamers are ready for such type of indie rpg games yet. Investment wise, it should be Android since there are many casual/simple games and this audience will probably open their arms widely for rpg maker games. I think there's already an Rpg maker software made by some french group which has been out this year for Android. I don't remember the website but a google search would benefit the curious.....