RPG Maker Needs To Break Its' Limits

Discussion in 'Commercial Games Discussion' started by RATED-RKOFRANKLIN, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. Mouser

    Mouser Veteran Veteran

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    Interesting thread: here are my two main thoughts, as I'm starting to dig RPG maker as a starting point for me to make my mistakes on before moving on to the world of 3D gaming.

    1) If you want a "real" engine, you pony up the $75k and license Hero - that's probably the cheapest option for any of the major engines out there. I don't know what the price for a source code license is for Unreal these days, but last I checked they wouldn't even talk to you unless you had some solid PUBLISHED games under your belt (and I know it's a lot more than $75k). Anything less than those and you're in hobby land. You've also got the latest edition of Aurora if that's available. I think most other houses, like Bethesda, homegrow their own.

    That's not to say money can't be made with hobby/indie engines. I know it can (I plan on making some of it), and there's a whole heap of commercially successful games made with them. Heck, Runic Games used Ogre (with a proprietary license, so assume it's been heavily modified) to make Torchlight. Plus whatever it is all those HOG's use to generate their piles of trash - people love to spend money on those (like romance novels, you don't have as many customers, but the ones you have keep buying book after book).

    2) What does Enterbrain care how many games get finished on another platform? They don't make any money off derivative sales. All that matters to their bottom line is how many copies of RPG maker get sold. I look at this stuff and my first thought is "Man, this would be killer on an IPhone". Then you've got an audience that's been carefully trained to spend $5 at a time for short, fun little apps - exactly the kind of stuff you could put out with a bit of work with RM. And they aren't looking for bleeding-edge graphics, cause, well they're playing their games on a phone...
     
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  2. Tsukihime

    Tsukihime Veteran Veteran

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    Holy crap $75k for a license?

    Might as well stick to $90 Ace then lol

    Never knew game devs had such a high margin holding them back.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2012
  3. Mouser

    Mouser Veteran Veteran

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    LOL! You don't want to know what an engine like Unreal costs to license then...

    But yes, it is a significant barrier to entry for new dev's. Keep in mind also, that one license for a decent 3D modelling program (meaning 3DS Max or Maya) runs about $4k, or you can buy your art assets from a place like Daz3D (you still have to know how to work with them, so you need Poser at least): the prices may not look high, but you need the base models for most of the things you see, and it adds up fast. This is all before you even start to look at things like salaries or consulting fees or commissions.

    My point is just that all this bickering over whether this or that engine (or platform, or development kit) is good enough, or a toy, or whatever is pointless. They're all hobby class engines. "Indie" is just a nice word for "not good enough for Prime Time". Some may be better at some things than others. Some may have serious flaws (some of them just plain suck). But anything in the $250-$2500 range (for 3D engines) should be good enough for you to create something that people would be willing to pay some money for. From what I've seen, RPG maker fits in this category - it costs less, but it's only a 2D engine, so there's a lot less it has to do.

    I heard a lecture by Stephen King once, talking to prospective authors. He said it's very important to recognize the 'trash' that's out there being published, because people are paying money for that. And you've got to believe that you can do at least a better job than that.

    You don't have to make the next great RPG epic (or Sports game, or FPS) to have a commercially viable product.

    It just has to be good enough that enough people will be willing to part with some money to have it.

    Edit: And back to the topic being discussed, I think a mobile platform version of RPG Maker would sell like wildfire. Apps are the New Big Thing, and everyone wants to get in on that market. Of course most of the people who buy this will never finish a game. When has that not been true? Enterbrain is selling dreams with this product, and that's where people's dreams are heading.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2012
  4. XingYe

    XingYe Warper Member

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    @Shaz

    I have sent two demos(iOS and Mac OSX) to @Mitchell.

    It's the first time I read this topic.

    I'm working on migrating RM Games to the other platforms, and now it comes to true on iOS, Android and Mac.

    I call it XIGN engine. It has almost all RM features and use real RM data(converted to lua format.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2012
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  5. Evan G.

    Evan G. Veteran Veteran

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    On the topic of RPG Maker breaking its limits, what does everybody think of RPG Maker implementing a precise collision system based on Box2D? Box2D is open-source, and Game Maker has already done the same thing. The exact open-source license is zlib.

    I feel like RPG Maker's lack of a real collision system is what makes implementing ABS and other action systems so time-consuming.

    I think it would make creating more unique, modern 2D RPGs a lot easier and add more customization options without making things too difficult for new users. The customization options would be especially helpful in the battle system department.
     
  6. amerk

    amerk Veteran Member

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    A collision system and being able to stack events are a couple features sorely lacking.
     
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  7. Jesse - PVGames

    Jesse - PVGames Game and Graphics Developer Veteran

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    At this point, I think it would be greatly beneficial if RPG Maker started making design choices akin to what the good folk at Scirra are making (they made Construct and Construct 2, both are terrific game-makers). Primarilly, the ease of use drag and drop interface and much more dynamic and powerful eventing system which is essentially like visual code. It is super easy to use and understand and so much more powerful than the eventing used by RPG Maker. This would eliminate the need for scripting (or at least make game makers less dependant upon them) as just about any kind of system or sub-system can be made this way.

    Just as a side-not, Construct 2 uses Box2D physics, and they can be used to great effect. I made a small test RPG with C2 using physics and it looked and felt a lot like Diablo, I was quite pleased with it and it only took a couple of hours to do. I really hope RPG Maker takes some notes from Scirra.
     
  8. Corlagon

    Corlagon Veteran Veteran

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    Isn't Construct just a clone of Clickteam's Multimedia Fusion?
     
  9. Tsukihime

    Tsukihime Veteran Veteran

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    I can't imagine an eventing system that could be created such that it would change the entire workings of the game without having to change basically the game itself. I mean, sure, you have things like a "cooking system", which could be isolated to a single event I guess, but then you have the same cooking system that heavily interacts with the actor and is not really an independent one-off thing.

    Then again I've never tried Construct, so I can only imagine things based on what I've seen in RM and Game Maker. For example, I think the RM event editor is already quite "visual" but then again I guess it's still basically a list of commands.
     
  10. Jesse - PVGames

    Jesse - PVGames Game and Graphics Developer Veteran

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    The RM event editor isn't bad, but after playing around with other engines, I can say that it is quite limited in its scope and capabilities. I mean, sure, you can event things like a cooking/crafting system, or perhaps even some sort of rudimentary combat system (maybe), but that is about the extent of the complexity allowed. With C2 you can quickly and easily make wildly complex systems that do pretty much anything. I whipped up a random spawn generator, a random event generator (which works in conjunction with the random spawn generator), a diablo-esque battle system, a paper-doll and full inventory system, and a bunch of other stuff fairly easily with the eventing system in C2. You can't really do almost any of that with RM's eventing and instead require scripting. Game Maker is different, and that is closer to what C2 does, but it is more expensive and less expansive than C2.

    Though I do really, really enjoy RM overall though. It has a lot going for it. I just kind of wish they took some notes from C2 for whatever the next RPG Maker is.
     
  11. Monthigos

    Monthigos Tata Veteran

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    MS is supposed to be standardizing the way apps are going to be developed across all their Windows 8 platforms. That means apps that work on the desktop should work on their tablets and windows phones with minimal effort oj the developer's part. WP7 has struggling but steadily gaining market share. With Win8 I am expecting their market share to jump significantly. I would even predict that the next iteration of XBox to have this level of standardization. Worth looking into.
     
  12. BigEd781

    BigEd781 undefined method 'stupid_title' found for nil:NilC Veteran

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    This is only true for Metro apps written in Javascript + HTML5 (easy to standardize... because it is already standardized on every browser in existence). This does not apply to native apps (or, for that matter, .NET apps, Ruby apps, Python apps, etc.), and I don't see Javascript + HTML taking over the desktop anytime soon.

    On a side note, Win8 feels like crap and I will never use it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2012
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  13. Helladen

    Helladen Deviant Designer Veteran

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    Windows 8 has got to be the poorest designed OS next to Windows 2000. They mixed Metro and Desktop together - that is just plain retarded, and when I tried it out I just uninstalled all the apps. They are so much worse than Android's apps, and Windows 8 is going to fail miserably.

    Back on topic, I believe if they just added more extensive script capabilities to all the editors it would make this a much more flexible engine. One of my reasons for suggesting this is from the way parallax mapping has to be done. It is such a redundant process to be honest. I'd much rather edit the map editor to handle parallaxes itself. For example, it would allow me to block areas by having pixel-based blocking, and no longer would I require to paint over the tiles anymore. There's really no way to work around that other than coding your own map editor, and having some sort of script to handle the blocking. So, this engine is very much limited, and that would indeed save many hours of work - especially on a huge project.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2012
  14. EternalShadow

    EternalShadow Veteran Veteran

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    For this, I make an event near the spawn that takes me to the map I want, adding any required items to my party.

    But yes, I'd love iOS compatability and such.
     
  15. zames95

    zames95 Villager Member

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    @xing yee i think thats terrific idea for a platform,i would totally buy it.

    But is it going to be free? :p
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2012
  16. Engr. Adiktuzmiko

    Engr. Adiktuzmiko Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy' Veteran

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    well, I think it's much fitting to port it to mobile platforms than on consoles cause a lot of people playing on consoles are into the graphics part, they want eyecandy games... and it doesn't fit very much too... just imagine a 2D "retro-style" RPG game lurking on the PS3/XBox when the majority of the games there are "3D" or real 3D...

    as for the event editor, well I think it's pretty fine for the work that it was designed to do... after all scripting is the core of doing complex things rather than GUI editing... and personally, I feel more "free" when I'm writing codes than clicking from a list, and it also seems to be faster (typing things rather than clicking)... the downside of this is of course the fact that you'll need to learn the coding structure of the engine... and if we want some much customized game style, there are lots of other engines for that (game maker and construct for 2D, then there's Unity (you can do a lot with a free copy of this), Unreal Engine, Cry Engine etc for 3D)...

    the only thing I'd want to see right now as an update is an unlimited layer capability for the map tiles and pixel by pixel placing... and maybe native full mouse support...

    @Helladeen - well win8 was made to bridge the gap between the desktop and mobile experience... they're hoping on the chance that once you get accustomed to the win8 desktop then you'll be more willing to use a phone running on windows and the fact that the next gen of computers will be touchscreens... and well, Metro was really more suited for touchscreens and seeing that touch screen all-in-one desktops and laptop/tablet convertibles are already on the production lines, win8 might just well succeed...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2012
  17. Hyomoto

    Hyomoto Staring Contest Veteran

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    It's a bit of the 'grass is greener' argument. I agree that some of the top tier projects may enjoy better visibility on other platforms, but simultaneously there ARE other options for sales on PC. GOG or Steam would surely be just as 'green' of a marketplace for these games. In fact, I'd wager they are more so. In many cases though, I suspect the same reason you don't see a lot of interactive fiction written with Inform and Adrift outside their communities is why RPG Maker is a bit of a niche offering.
     
  18. Jomarcenter

    Jomarcenter jomarcenter-MJM Veteran

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    @Everyone who said about Win8, Well it true that Win8 is bad (really I totally ragequit when I try the demo that was setup at stores.), But Microsoft is still testing their new style, Since the touch screen is now popular nowadays but maybe if they released Win 9 or something it might be good. Like Windows vista, Microsoft is testing their new style but ended up with a lot of complains, But if you see Win7 Same style from Windows Vista but now it look good. If you don't like Win8 just wait for Windows 9 or something to be released.

    Well GOG mostly selling old games and old style games, So it isn't very same as Steam selling New Style games like 3D style and stuff, And mostly I kinda like 2D better than 3D. And Rpg maker is totally very good to make old style games like the one that was selling at GOG like the Ultima series, And other old style RPG series. Since nowaday that newest 3D style rpg games isn't very good in my view while 2D style is totally good to my taste.

    And also Game developer and games is now very high in market lately so company is taking advantage of the situation by providing game engine at a totally higher price, But the Rpg maker series was cheap and affordable and can make good 2D style RPG games.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2012
  19. Tuomo L

    Tuomo L Oldbie Veteran

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    Okay, I have to ask and this goes to all who are wanting to port to X-box... Why do you want to get support to a console that's already so outdated? I mean, I'd understand if this would be about Wii U or the 720 but I am fairly sure we're talking about the 360 here. All it'd cause is license costs and your market wouldn't increase enough to make the extra cost plausible.

    Now, Wii U support on the other hand...
     
  20. amerk

    amerk Veteran Member

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    Considering where MS and Sony are taking their gaming industry, I'm thinking Nintendo might be more supportive of RM developers. I agree that Wii U might be a more logical platform.
     

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