RPGM and Jealousy

[OmniStorm]

This will be my first substantial post here in the RPGM community.  First off I want to say thank you to everyone who helps to make this community the content-rich place that it is.  Without each of you, what I do would be impossible. 

It has been my lifelong dream to create an RPG.  Ace has finally made that dream a reality.  I am very thankful for it.

/rant on

TLDR: People who are lazy with RPGM need to shut up and be thankful for successful projects.  

I am writing this post just to say something that I feel needs to be said... Something I've wanted to say for months now.  Ever since I launched my RPG project on Kickstarter,(at http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/999449823/chaos-drift-a-nostalgic-rpg-experience) and then on Steam Greenlight... there have been many people (some of them right here from this very forum) that have come out and said some of the most thoughtless, hate-filled things that can be hurled at another human being.  I did not expect much respect when I sat down to use RPG Maker.  I did not expect to be hailed as some great game developer that would change RPG history.  I just expected to be left alone to create my game and let that speak for itself, good or bad. 

Yeah, right.  I should seriously post some of the garbage that filled up my Kickstarter inbox, email inbox, and Steam Greenlight comments section, (though the latter at least I can delete the worst of the worst comments.)  People raging because I dared to try to make a profit from RPGM.  People raging because I used something from the RTP.  People raging because I got funded for over $6k.  People raging because I used Celianna's tileset.  People raging because I used Victor's scripts... People raging because my map design sucks.  Etc, etc, etc...

I have so many messages from people telling me that their grandma could map better than me... and then they proceed to show me ONE map that they probably spent a week parallax mapping to prove what a scrub I am.  I know how to parallax map.  I would love to be able to parallax every map in my game.  But that is not a possibility for me right now.  That would be a possibility with a team of say, 5 talented parallax mappers.   I'm currently at over 200 maps for my project and maybe 20%? finished with mapping.  Show me a finished parallax map RPG that you didn't spend 10 years to create, and then maybe I can learn something from you. 

But you know what... I came to a realization.  If you are one of those people, one of the incessant detractors that has felt it was their duty to police all RPG Maker projects... I just want to say what your problem is:  you are jealous. 

You are jealous that I am actually creating something.  You are an armchair expert at everything, but you haven't actually accomplished anything.  Because if you have put half the work into any project in RPGM that I have, then you realize quickly that RPG Maker is not a magic wand that you wave and create an RPG.  It's simply a tool.  It can be used to make some incredibly bad projects.  But, by all rights, virtually any of the old school RPG classic favorites could have been created in Ace.  The same hammer and nails that can create a useless shack can be used to build the most beautiful of mansions.   Not all RPGM projects are created equal. 

And if you CAN do better than me, then God bless your soul, and I wish you the best in your project.   Stop messaging me and GO make something.  I WANT someone else to succeed with this program.  It is in ALL of the RPG Maker Community's best interest for RPGM projects to succeed.  Each success will bring more talented scripters, more talented artists, more talented developers to the RPGM scene.  WE NEED SUCCESSFUL PROJECTS.  We don't need to tear each other down.  We need to help each other out. 

For example, because I got funded in Kickstarter, I could put a meager $200 in Celianna's pocket to use her tileset.  Who knows how many hours she put into creating that, and $200 is nothing for it... but I hope it's enough to keep her going.  That's just one example...  but the more projects are critically and commercially successful, the more money and talent will come into the RPG Maker scene and we all win.  Let's face it:  money is the number one thing holding most of your projects back.  If you had all the money you needed, you could do so much more.  If your full time job could be RPG Maker, where would your project be? 

Yet so many treat it like it's a crime to use RPGM to make any sort of profit or that to put a RPGM game on Kickstarter or Steam is the unforgivable sin.  What?  Why do you think this program was created?  Doh.  You cry about me using assets I didn't create... but what do you think almost ALL developers do?  They outsource work to others that would be impossible for themselves to create given time constraints/ lack of ability in an area.  That's essentially what this community allows a dev like me to do.  

So let's stop trying to compete with each other, and find ways to help each other.  Let's not try to tear each other's projects apart with venomous private messages.... but let's find ways to make each other better.  

/rant off 

-Caleb, Chaos Drift Dev  

 

[Andar]

One tiny correction: that's not limited to RPGM, that's the Internet and Trolling


One of the most important abilities of any developer is the ability to ignore those trolls, because if you cannot ignore them, but take the nonsense they're writing to your heart, then you won't have the strength to complete your projects...


But you won't ever get rid of them - because there are too many of them...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Back to something constructive:


The text above might be a rant, but it touches upon one very important fact that anyone who wants to complete a project (any project, not just RPGM-Games) needs to keep in mind:


It takes time and work to complete something, even if its "just for a hobby", and ten times if you want to make a living from it.


And no matter what you do, your first project will never be successfull or really complete, because you need that (and the first months working on it) to learn how to work with any tool.


The tutorial linked in my signature emphasizes on that, if you want to read more about my opinion on the topic...

 

[OmniStorm]

One tiny correction: that's not limited to RPGM, that's the Internet and Trolling

One of the most important abilities of any developer is the ability to ignore those trolls, because if you cannot ignore them, but take the nonsense they're writing to your heart, then you won't have the strength to complete your projects...

But you won't ever get rid of them - because there are too many of them...

Thank you.  Correction accepted.     

 

[amerk]

The problem with Greenlight is that people must vote to get the game approved for Steam. When Greenlight first opened up, there was a heavy flood of poorly designed RM games. Since then, the site has become all too familiar with anything remotely RM, so whenever an RM game comes along, chances are high the game will be automatically downvoted even if the game is good, and even if the voter didn't take the time to actually see if the game will be good.

There are exceptions, such as "You Are Not the Hero" and "To the Moon", but most RM games that stand a chance must have almost everything custom and/or come in with a heavy backing.

I don't know your game specifically, so I can't comment on that, however, I do understand the plight of good developers. If you have a product that is well made, it can be buried beneath all the sludge of other games, which has the misfortune of being compared with the sludge games, which in turn leads to people trolling, flaming, insulting, and otherwise criticising your game without even giving it a chance.

All you can do is push through it, come in with a heavy fan backing, and hope for the best.

 

[Shades]

Hey, congratulations on getting your game out there. I've been tinkering with game design as a hobby for years and still have yet to get finish anything to the point that I consider it publishable. What you've got there is a major accomplishment.   

I *am* a little jealous, but I look at it this way: if you can do it, so can I. And one day, I will.

  BD  

 

[kerbonklin]

I read the TLR and it REALLY wanted to make me read the whole thing. =P

100% whole-ly agree with you, and it sucks when bad people (I honestly can't find a better way to phrase this, not trying to sound elitist either) cause a bad reputation for those who work really hard. I used to go through the exact same notion for a character in my MMO (Points to avatar and sig) where people would use the overpowered side of him to win PvPs, causing so much hate.

Steam Greenlight can be such a pain in the ass. I remember another one of my played MMOs (LaTale) tried to get Greenlighted, but it was flooded with ignorant "MapleStory clone" comments, which just makes the LaTale playerbase facepalm so hard. (It didn't pass Greenlight by a longshot sadly)

 

[Arin]

Can't we all just say Steam sucks?

 

[kerbonklin]

Can't we all just say Steam sucks?

Correction, Greenlight community sucks.   Can't say Steam sucks because there's so many positives. The layout, the performance, the workshop, the cheap game sales, game-friend management, Dota2, etc.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Let those trolls be, they get their satisfaction from seeing you getting so affected by their trolling... The best way to attack them is to make your game successful...


though really, sometimes is fun to troll trolls...

 

[orochii]

Well, I'm with you on the trolling issues, because there is a lot of people with pretty bad manners. But you lost me with that generalization about the trolls having jealousy and all that stuff. I hate generalizations, and more one where all you do is putting them as "a whiny child-minded mass", just to push your ego (don't take it wrong, it's just the feel I got when reading).

Just don't mind about it, you've got what you wanted, so, instead of whining, do your game, that's the way you change minds, by actions, not by words. Don't let community affairs discourage you and make you put cheap conclusions.

There is no need for that generalization, that's my point,

Orochii Zouveleki

PD.: And as Shades said, congrats for the successful funding!

 

[Tsukitsune]

Whether small indie developer or big time AAA developer, you're going to have people who just hate on your game.  If you want to make it as a developer, you have to learn to ignore the trolls.  Take constructive criticism, even if it's negative, and ignore the "this game sux ass" comments because that doesn't help you improve the game in the slightest.

Creating games isn't all sunshine and rainbows.

 

[Archeia]

The only time I get really mad at an RM game that is profiting is when it's obvious there's not much thought put into sections of the game. (Empty maps, dbs without any customization, etc.) That grinds my gears.

 

[Chaos17]

I agree with Archeia, that's probably why I don't support most of the commercial Rm games.

 

[Kes]

I think Archeia is spot on! It really riles me that everyone gets put down because of games like that.

 

[Galenmereth]

Why does it annoy you if others make a profit off something "simple", something you feel is not up to your own standards? That is jealousy, too, and it's not productive.

 

[Berylstone]

Let those trolls be, they get their satisfaction from seeing you getting so affected by their trolling... 

Very true.

If you let them get under your skin they win and their job is accomplished.

I know this is much easier said than done, but I would try not to get emotional about it.  And sometimes even a critique laced with hate and vulgarity can offer important insight on how to improve your game.  So I wouldn't just dismiss a mean-spirited opinion out-right.  Often times there is something there to salvage, even if you do have to wade about in the sewer to find it

 

[Archeia]

Why does it annoy you if others make a profit off something "simple", something you feel is not up to your own standards? That is jealousy, too, and it's not productive.

It's not "simple" it's laziness. 

It's like you're giving off people a wrong impression of your game design skills by using **** that you didn't make.

I won't be jealous over something that is obvious there's not much thought put into it, why would I be? But I can't believe the person has the nerve to sell it to people. There's a difference. Money doesn't interest me but games. 

It's like one time I bought a game from BFG going yayy mystery game only to find out that it has the worst story pacing I had ever seen and the most frustrating amount of hidden object games, I felt ripped off. This is the feeling I don't want people to feel when they buy a half-assed RM game. There's so many instances of this that I kid you not, I have pretty medium standards for indie games unless they're AAA.

Here's also the game's summary in the nutshell btw:

Dude refuses to cleanse the water because he doesn't have his hat. The dumb Venician government decided not to give the hat too, causing Venice to fall into a plague that is murdering its residents, until you the detective decided to do it since they're lazy. For some reason. And this is a serious game, complete with hyperrealism art. Am I supposed to take this mystery as serious? Like really, now?

 

[Kes]

Why does it annoy you if others make a profit off something "simple", something you feel is not up to your own standards? That is jealousy, too, and it's not productive.

I think you may have slightly misread my post - or perhaps I didn't express myself as clearly as I should have done.

I have no problems with people making a profit from something "simple".  What irritates me is that when people have put a lot of work into custom resources, and yet their games are dismissed (by those who probably haven't even tried a demo) because it is assumed that all RM games are simple.  Others then read the critique and believe it, and so a particular reputation grows and sticks to all RM games.  I just think it is unfair for so many good games to be treated dismissively because of other games.

 

[Galenmereth]

It's like one time I bought a game from BFG going yayy mystery game only to find out that it has the worst story pacing I had ever seen and the most frustrating amount of hidden object games, I felt ripped off. This is the feeling I don't want people to feel when they buy a half-assed RM game. There's so many instances of this that I kid you not, I have pretty medium standards for indie games unless they're AAA.

I get this feeling buying games on iOS all the time – to such an extend it's become extremely unlikely I buy anything (nor do I download free to play games, for similar reasons). I've had the same feeling with "AAA" games, indie and big corp games, too. Diablo 3 is one such game that I feel is half-assed – obviously not in visuals and gameplay, but story and balance wise it was a mess of a game that offended me, because they sold the game with Act 1 during open beta, then proceeded to just take a dump on the story and item balance from there on out.

Bad games are bad games subjectively. But maybe there is someone out there that will enjoy it. Obviously there's a ton of shovelware and I do not like that, either. Especially when they sell by advertisement alone. The best thing you can do is review these games if you stumble upon them, honestly and thoroughly.

@ksjp17

You said you agreed with Archeia's post, which is the one I directed the reply against mostly. But yeah, what you say there I agree with. It's especially annoying when advertising and "lying" (legally) seels what is mostly a scam in disguise. But that is something else than getting angry at people making a money off simple games, I'd say

 

[Archeia]

I still don't think those are simple games but hacks instead. Simple games can be good still, eg. Pong and Tetris are simple ones, they still provide a relatively good gameplay experience. Bejeweled is a well thought out simple game. PAC-MAN itself is also a good simple game. Diablo 3 is AAA and I'm not going in there. Despite it being a "bad" game, it's just different.

I don't feel satisfaction smashing Default Skills to enemies without any changes at all that I can do myself in the RM database. I'd rather fight against games that think they can get away with it instead of letting it be and encourage people to do it. Since lol, who cares about making proper games when you can get money?

It's like if someone sells you a faulty product from a mother company and all the dude says is well, you bought it. Your fault for not researching. But the mother company actually makes good stuff and now it affects that company's reputation. It's just not cool.