Save points as items.

[KawaiiKid]

Just running this by the community to see the reaction. I'm looking for remove the normal save feature anywhere but in towns and the world map. Instead players will have to craft save orbs (via the alchemist class by farming mats), or by buying expensive ones through the shops.

Do you guys think that this will be detrimental to the game or positive? I'm looking to make the game hard, but not overly convoluted, something that I hope this feature doesn't add to the game - rather

increase the difficulty by being smart where you save.

 

[Nirwanda]

Except it'll be hard being smart about where you save because the player won't know what's coming next.

The problem with games with save items is that the player may be afraid of squandering them and lose a lot of progress or use them often and then end up running out of them when he really needs them, while making them plentiful would trivialize the system.

Honestly, I believe that if you want to limit the usage of saves, a classical save point system would be a better idea.

 

[Wavelength]

I think this idea can be fantastic for the right kind of game - a mechanics-heavy game with lots of game elements and risk/reward decision-making.  Dungeon crawlers.  Roguelikes.  Even Dragon Quarter-like RPGs.

But I think it would probably be a poor fit for a traditional RPG where Save Points can be used by the designer to moderate difficulty (unless you want to allow both Save Points and Save Items) and where progression is usually one of the primary aesthetics of play (so that it's important not to ever take a lot of progress away from your player via Game Over).

 

[MagicMagor]

I don't know. This means i have to spend ingame-resources (gold, craft-resources) to be able to use an outgame-feature (saving). The main reason for me to save is to stop playing the game and not loose progress. So in your game i have to decide between upgrading my gear for the next dungeon or to be able to stop my play-session mid-dungeon?

Someone who can have really long play-sessions has an easier time than someone who can only play in 15- or 30-minute bulks, because has to buy fewer save-orbs? All in all this doesn't sound look a good idea to me. Never mix ingame-decisions with the ability to save.

In the german rpg-maker community there was a good game once, back in the 2000-days. It was a great game but i had one major flaw: Save-items. In this case save-items where also the only way to save the game and this was the one and only reason i stopped playing this game.

 

[Wavelength]

MagicMagor brings up a good point - any game that doesn't have Save Points needs a "soft save anywhere" system (a save that deletes itself once loaded) so the player can put the game down whenever they need to.

 

[Jaggedjaw]

Well, this could work well with a game that is more survival horror based, (you know, like with Sweet Home), although I'm still not entirely sure how it would go over for other types of games. Maybe having a small fee from scribes for saving could work (much as like with inns for healing), but once again, I'm not exactly sure how that would go over. Maybe if you had the scribes as some sort of fun, or snarky, character, but at this point, this is me just thinking out-loud about what you could do.

 

[Zoltor]

The whole concept of allowing saves as items, is almost as bad as a concept, of allowing players to save everywhere.

No matter how you look at it, it causes more trouble then It's worth, just don't do it, thee end lol.

I pretty much only allow people to save in towns for the most, and what I'm doing for exceptions to such, is making actual save points, for the rare occasions that I feel the need to allow the player to save when they aren't in a town.

This way you don't need to worry about the player abusing the save system, nor do you need you worry about the player saving in a tight spot, thus needing to start the game from the very beginning again.

 

[Rikifive]

Personally I don't like save-anywhere-anytime-for-free feature.

Why?

I remember the old console games, where there were save points. It made game more interesting, because there was a little risk.

Imagine how boring/easy would be... for example...

Resident Evil 3: Nemesis - Let's imagine save takes ~1 second and you can save anywhere - you got hit etc.? LOAD; you missed? LOAD. I don't like this.

ALL NES games - NES emulators COMPLETELY BROKE the whole experience of playing NES games. I remember playing games 999 times from the very beginning, because run out of lives - that was challenging - now? Save/load each second until you jump over that bottomless pit for example. I stopped caring about gameplay, but just load load load load save save save until I beat it.

I'm just kind of 'older' gamer, so that's where that opinion came of.

I know rl events and such can be against not having save-anywhere-anytime-for-free feature, but that's my very personal opinion and I really don't want to argue with anybody. Everyone have their own opinion so I respect that.

About your idea - I like it, because you'll still be able to save anytime, but prevent player from spamming saves. In my opinion, that's one of the best solutions.

Kinda like in Tomb Raider 3. (=

But still save points in towns and certain points are the best in my opinion.

No rushing - careful gameplay.

 

[Kes]

I thoroughly dislike the idea of save items.  It would be slightly mitigated if you were to use the sort of 'soft' save system that Wavelength mentioned, but even with that, the player has no way of knowing if a precious save item should be used or not because often s/he does not know what is coming up next.  With designated save points, that is usually enough to alert the player to the need to save because of possibly greater danger (always assuming that the developer has used their intelligence when deciding where to put them) but with save items - given the wide held propensity to hoard items 'just in case', I can foresee a lot of players losing significant amounts of game play time.  Such players will often then just walk away from the game completely.

 

[Zoltor]

I thoroughly dislike the idea of save items.  It would be slightly mitigated if you were to use the sort of 'soft' save system that Wavelength mentioned, but even with that, the player has no way of knowing if a precious save item should be used or not because often s/he does not know what is coming up next.  With designated save points, that is usually enough to alert the player to the need to save because of possibly greater danger (always assuming that the developer has used their intelligence when deciding where to put them) but with save items - given the wide held propensity to hoard items 'just in case', I can foresee a lot of players losing significant amounts of game play time.  Such players will often then just walk away from the game completely.

This is true as well, you know Dragon Warrior 2, well they have Dragon Potions which allow you to save anywhere, but they are super rare drops, dropped by a very slippery monster, and my treasure hunting instinct it to collect/hoard these, not use them.

Just the mere thought of possibly wasting one, when there Isn't even a need for such, scares me away from using them period.

 

[Grimoire LD]

This is true as well, you know Dragon Warrior 2, well they have Dragon Potions which allow you to save anywhere, but they are super rare drops, dropped by a very slippery monster, and my treasure hunting instinct it to collect/hoard these, not use them.

Just the mere thought of possibly wasting one, when there Isn't even a need for such, scares me away from using them period.

...Wow. I had no idea that Dragon Warrior 2 had such an item, I've played through the game and have seen it LP'ed as well. They must be stupidly rare drops then! I do rather like this idea though, it allows players a better sense of control if they happened to obtain the item (like getting through the Road to Rhone in DW2 would have been nice to have such a thing) but if they didn't they can still manage through... eventually. 

I agree with your original idea of having save stations in towns only as it increases the tensions when in dungeons like Dragon Quest games. Granted in Dragon Quest games when you die you go back to the last save point, but get to keep your new items and exp (while losing half of your gold)  but here you just die and lose everything (until a plugin comes along and changes that)

 

[Zoltor]

...Wow. I had no idea that Dragon Warrior 2 had such an item, I've played through the game and have seen it LP'ed as well. They must be stupidly rare drops then! I do rather like this idea though, it allows players a better sense of control if they happened to obtain the item (like getting through the Road to Rhone in DW2 would have been nice to have such a thing) but if they didn't they can still manage through... eventually. 

I agree with your original idea of having save stations in towns only as it increases the tensions when in dungeons like Dragon Quest games. Granted in Dragon Quest games when you die you go back to the last save point, but get to keep your new items and exp (while losing half of your gold)  but here you just die and lose everything (until a plugin comes along and changes that)

They are Metal Babble drops(and the only reliable place to find tons of Metal Babbles, is in the Road to Rhome, so yea, they are insanely hard drops to get.  I'm not sure if they are in the remake of the game though.

I actually have every character's inventore(aside from "must have" equips/items) completely full with Dragon Potions. It's such a shame 2 didn't have a Vault. 

Actually not necessarily, in my game I'm also using Game Over events script, that not only allows me to dictate what happens when a player gets wiped out, but I can also change such on the fly during gameplay as well. It's a amazing script

 

[Wavelength]

Nirwanda, Zoltor, KSJP, maybe a couple others have expressed that they wouldn't like this element because you wouldn't know what's coming next (or that, by extension, you could waste a save).  This is why I love this subforum! - they are making a perfectly valid argument against it and yet I can honestly say it's something that I personally wouldn't mind.  I think it would shift the paradigm toward considering "how much do I have to lose right now if I get a Game Over" instead of "how difficult is the boss I'm about to face/will I face a boss".

To reiterate one more time: this isn't a good system for a traditional plot/progression-heavy RPG (unless you use both Save Items and classic Save Points), but I still think it would be a neat element in an RPG that was heavier on game elements and risk/reward decision-making in general (just remember to allow Soft Saves anywhere).

 

[SinのAria]

I read most of this topic and I somewhat disagree with some thoughts here.

It is definitely doable. It is actually somewhat of a mechanic I use (though in my case, the item isn't exactly rare, just takes time/effort to recharge).

What I do is in certain areas, replace the item with a copy of the item that cannot be used. In other words, right before a boss fight with no way to go back? Yeah....  Don't let them save there.

Essentially you either use an event where upon entering a certain area with a certain condition (ie. boss is alive and waiting), you can't save because the item is now disabled.

Easier with scripts, doable with events and a bit of work.

Main issue obviously is that clever players would realize when there is a boss or big event.