Shi- boatloads of Skills

Eschaton

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I've noticed a trend in newer games in which the number of available attacks to the player has been decreasing, but the utility and customization of individual skills has been increasing to compensate.

Yet, on this site, people seem to boast about hundreds of skills.

*deep breath*

There seems to be two camps, here:  one one hand you can create a small skill pool, but give these skills LOTS of utility.  On the other, you can give them a lot of skills to increase the customization of your characters.

Thoughts?
 

Andar

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as always, it depends on implementation.

And the difference is how the player sees those skills, not how they're placed in the engine.

You can get away with a lot of skills, if the player at any time has only a few skills to select. The game engine of RM supports this by giving event commands to change/remove skills or have only a few accessable - while at the same time centering around skills, so that it's easier to make a lot of skills and limit their access than to create variable skills.

What has to be prevented at any cost is giving the player a large list of skills to scroll through when he wants to fight - If I had to scroll three pages to get to the best combat skill for the current situation, then I would probably stop playing the game.

On this board, the topic is game development - which means that the poster talk about a lot of skills even if those don't appear to the player at the same time.

If you find a game on a player-focused forum mentioning a lot of skills, then better start running - here (in this context) it isn't usually that bad ;-)
 

Milennin

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I much prefer a small skill pool, but have each and every skill do something unique, to be really effective in the right situations, or have different strategic uses (like being able to use as both a defensive and offensive option).

In my opinion the problem with a huge skill pool is that you end up with tons of useless skills that are inferior to higher levels skills, or that a lot of skills do the same thing but with a different skill name and animation.

In my own game I go with a small skill pool, but every 5 levels (up to 4 times) a skill will upgrade to become stronger, more effective or gain an additional effect. That way it compensates for having a relatively small list of skills to choose from.
 

Archeia

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I prefer to give characters a small set of unique skills and then equippable general skills/alchemized. And then base the entire gameplay on that. I don't really think 2312321312 skill numbers is needed unless it's like some DnD type of game or something. :x
 

Quigon

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The way I've got it is, each character has maybe four-six unique buff/debuff/support skills that can be upgraded throughout, and elemental spells can be learned by anyone (with some being more proficient than others).
 

Lowell

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My games database is built upon the mechanics of Romancing SaGa so there is a somewhat large number of general skills for characters to learn, as far as unique skills are concerned the number is much smaller.
 

kerbonklin

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I'm currently conflicted about how to go with my Class/Skill system now that I started working on game progression.  I had quite a few skills per class, being able to combine up to two classes, but with my new battle system I have to add in a new set of special skills, and I have to plan out how early I can change/mix classes, or if I would even do that at all. (or to at least some extent)

Well, that's showbiz game development for you! I'll figure it out soon lol.
 

Zechnophobe

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I've noticed a trend in newer games in which the number of available attacks to the player has been decreasing, but the utility and customization of individual skills has been increasing to compensate.

Yet, on this site, people seem to boast about hundreds of skills.

*deep breath*

There seems to be two camps, here:  one one hand you can create a small skill pool, but give these skills LOTS of utility.  On the other, you can give them a lot of skills to increase the customization of your characters.

Thoughts?
In my specific case, my entire game is based around the idea of randomly generated characters, with random selections of skills. This mix and match style requires a lot of skills to mix and match from.

That said, not all games work like this. If you've got 5 main characters you plan to use the ENTIRE GAME THROUGH than having high impact skills, but few of them, can also be good.
 

Espon

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Usually when you see a lot of skills it's because there's multiple ranks of one ability (ie Heal, Great Heal, Supreme Heal, Ultimate Heal).  I prefer to just have the initial skill scale in power as you level, and offer a more powerful version with an inefficient MP cost.  For example, Heal will heal for 250% of INT for 12% MP and Great Heal heals for 400% of INT for 40% of MP (I use static mana pools called Stamina).

Every character has a few unique abilities that no one else can learn, usually weapon based.
 

Zechnophobe

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Espon makes a good point. It can be easy to bloat things because you want to use a tiered system, instead of a smooth scaling system based on stats. That isn't always a bad thing (it could be part of your balance that a person only learns Heal 1 and Heal 2, but not heal 3 and 4, to demonstrate that they are a mediocre healer), but you should generally keep it in mind.

Good rule of thumb: Realize first that you could implement your system in a large number of ways. Have a good reason why you implemented it the way you did.

If you haven't considered the other options, you are likely not doing it right :) .
 

Tai_MT

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as always, it depends on implementation.

And the difference is how the player sees those skills, not how they're placed in the engine.

You can get away with a lot of skills, if the player at any time has only a few skills to select. The game engine of RM supports this by giving event commands to change/remove skills or have only a few accessable - while at the same time centering around skills, so that it's easier to make a lot of skills and limit their access than to create variable skills.

What has to be prevented at any cost is giving the player a large list of skills to scroll through when he wants to fight - If I had to scroll three pages to get to the best combat skill for the current situation, then I would probably stop playing the game.

On this board, the topic is game development - which means that the poster talk about a lot of skills even if those don't appear to the player at the same time.

If you find a game on a player-focused forum mentioning a lot of skills, then better start running - here (in this context) it isn't usually that bad ;-)
I agree with this to an extent.  My only real complaint?  I'd say it's more about personal preference than about implementation.

I have played with both systems of skills.  Numerous skills and small pools of skills.  In fact, my current system uses both.  How?  Well, you are given a small pool of skills for every character, but each skill can be leveled up to level 4.  Each choice does something different to your skill.  So, my database has 15 skills for each skill in the game, and they are added/removed as the choices are made.

My take on both systems is thus:  I absolutely love them both when they are conducive to a battle.  Final Fantasy 6 has loads and loads of skills.  The only complaint I had with their list?  I couldn't find uses for the level 1 spells when I was sitting on the level 3 versions and huge pools of MP.  Many of the spells had their own uses and utilities.  You could tinker around a bit if you desired, and I rather loved that about the magic system in that game.  I also enjoy small pools of skills in games like Mass Effect where you can map them to the controller and quick cast a small amount you will use frequently as well as upgrade these skills in the way you want to use them.

The real issue, no matter which system you use, is making every single skill useful.  I don't mean, useful every so often.  I mean useful to the point that the player has to consider using it fairly frequently.

Let's take status effect skills for a moment.  In most every RPG in recent memory, these skills have become absolutely useless.  Why?  Standard enemies die too easily to warrant the use of these skills and bosses are typically immune to them.  On top of which, a lot of these skills don't actually do much in terms of a fight to warrant their use anyway.  If you poison someone and it takes the poison something like 30 turns to kill someone, was it worth inflicting in the first place?  Especially since you can just hammer the "Attack" button and kill someone in 4 turns regardless of whether or not they are poisoned.

I know players don't like to scroll through massive lists of skills, but I think that is because of what I'd just mentioned.  If most of your skills are never going to be selected and are just taking up space, then why should I have to scroll past them to get to what I do want to use?  Why should I scroll through Fire 1-6 when I want to use Fire 7?  Especially when I have 99999/99999 MP to be casting these big spells.

If each and every skill you create doesn't have its own usefulness, even up to the end of the game, it doesn't really deserve to exist in the first place.  Likewise, there's no real reason to give someone increments of a spell that don't do anything more than buff the damage.  If you give me Fire 2, I don't need Fire 1 anymore.  I'll rarely use it.  Most players will rarely use it.  Once we get Fire 3, then Fire 1 becomes even MORE useless.  In short, don't do that with your skills.  Your players will thank you for it.
 

kerbonklin

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I disagree, lower-tier skills such as Fire 1/2 (let's say it goes upto Fire 3) are still functionable. Smart gamers will still use them to conserve MP to finish off weak enemies, as long as the game balances for not giving the player a resource of infinite MP to blast through quickly.

However, a more economical idea on making Fire 1/2/3, would be something like so:

Fire 1 deals single-target damage.

Fire 2 deals all-target damage but weaker than Fire 1 (Costs some more MP than Fire 1)

Fire 3 deals all-target damage that's stronger than Fire 1. (Costs some more MP than Fire 2)

If you want to add variety you can always add in some kind of Status ailment for the later tiers.

Another example is how Kingdom Hearts treats their "Spell name" -ra/ga

Cure heals a small amount of HP.

Cura gives a heal-over-time that's more total than Cure.

Curaga fully heals your HP.

Depending on the situation, Cura was still viable to use.

Fire was a single shot forward.

Fira was a homing shot that was slightly stronger than Fire

Firaga was single shot forward that was stronger than Fira

Because Fira was a homing shot, it's easier to use and still decent damage.
 
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Tai_MT

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I disagree, lower-tier skills such as Fire 1/2 (let's say it goes upto Fire 3) are still functionable. Smart gamers will still use them to conserve MP to finish off weak enemies, as long as the game balances for not giving the player a resource of infinite MP to blast through quickly.

However, a more economical idea on making Fire 1/2/3, would be something like so:

Fire 1 deals single-target damage.

Fire 2 deals all-target damage but weaker than Fire 1 (Costs some more MP than Fire 1)

Fire 3 deals all-target damage that's stronger than Fire 1. (Costs some more MP than Fire 2)

If you want to add variety you can always add in some kind of Status ailment for the later tiers.

Another example is how Kingdom Hearts treats their "Spell name" -ra/ga

Cure heals a small amount of HP.

Cura gives a heal-over-time that's more total than Cure.

Curaga fully heals your HP.

Depending on the situation, Cura was still viable to use.

Fire was a single shot forward.

Fira was a homing shot that was slightly stronger than Fire

Firaga was single shot forward that was stronger than Fira

Because Fira was a homing shot, it's easier to use and still decent damage.
I'd agree with you about the "MP Economical" thing, except that in pretty much all RPGs...  A gamer won't do things that way.  If an enemy is almost killed off by Fire 2, but not quite there, why even waste the extra MP to cast Fire 1 when you can just hammer "Attack" to finish off the creature instead?  Likewise, if you can hammer "Attack" on anything else instead of Casting Fire 2, that's much smarter to do.  Why waste a spell on such a weak creature?  You know when people use Fire 1?  When they don't have enough MP to cast Fire 2, 3, 10, 30, etcetera and they don't have the items to restore the MP.  It's a "last ditch" action to use a lower level of the spell instead of the higher version.

Players instinctively use whatever will end battles fastest for them.  If a single cast of Fire 1 wouldn't end the battle, they opt for Fire 2 so that they can move on to bigger and better things.  If they're trying to conserve MP, they'll either run from the fight or hammer "Attack" until they win if an enemy is so weak.

The only RPG I have ever played in which I did the strategy (or even saw others do it) you are referring to is Pokémon.  It's done in that game because all attacks drain at the same rate of one use per use.  Not all attacks have the same amount of uses as each other.  It's also important in that game to conserve your attack uses because the only reliable way to restore uses is to visit the PokéCenters in towns.  So, if your Aero Blast didn't kill the enemy in a single hit, but dropped them to 1/10th health, it's much more economical to simply use "Tackle" instead of wasting a use of Aero Blast.  But, this works this way in Pokémon, 'cause it's typically 1v1 battles and you don't have 3 other party members with you to simply mash "Attack" to finish an opponent off so you don't waste any more MP.

I would also like to point out that one of the best ways to make skills is to have them ALL be useful right up until the end of the game.  That's what your examples attempt to do.  It's not what most or even "some" RPGs do.  There are a ton of "useless skills" in RPGs these days.  One has only to step into the land of Skyrim to see that the practice of "worthless spells by the end of the game" is still in practice and is alive and well.
 

Berylstone

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I've noticed a trend in newer games in which the number of available attacks to the player has been decreasing, but the utility and customization of individual skills has been increasing to compensate.

Yet, on this site, people seem to boast about hundreds of skills.

*deep breath*

There seems to be two camps, here:  one one hand you can create a small skill pool, but give these skills LOTS of utility.  On the other, you can give them a lot of skills to increase the customization of your characters.

Thoughts?
I would say it depends.  If the skills remain relevant and useful then the more of them the better.  But adding a lot of skills that are useless or become useless really doesn't add much to the game.
 

kerbonklin

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Sorry Tai but I disagree on "all skills should be useful even upto end-game".  Skills are a sign of progression just as much as weapons+armors are. Newer skills should most of the time be better than older skills, while serving an important purpose for that part of the game, meaning I will probably not be using the older skills.

The only exception of me ever enjoying the use of older skills is if those older skills are important to the battle system itself, like Left Assault / Right Assault / Push Assault / Belial Claw from the game Radiant Historia. (Atlus DS) Those 4 skills were always important throughout the whole game because you used them to push around and group enemies on the 3x3 battlefield, followed by the newer and more powerful skills you get to nuke your grouped enemies.
 
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Eschaton

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Always with the JRPG references.  Here's my take:  if you're going to have a ****load of skills 1) make some of them mutually exclusive; you can't have them all, just the ones pertinent to your build, and 2) advanced versions *replace* weaker versions.

That's my $0.02
 
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Tai_MT

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Sorry Tai but I disagree on "all skills should be useful even upto end-game".  Skills are a sign of progression just as much as weapons+armors are. Newer skills should most of the time be better than older skills, while serving an important purpose for that part of the game, meaning I will probably not be using the older skills.

The only exception of me ever enjoying the use of older skills is if those older skills are important to the battle system itself, like Left Assault / Right Assault / Push Assault / Belial Claw from the game Radiant Historia. (Atlus DS) Those 4 skills were always important throughout the whole game because you used them to push around and group enemies on the 3x3 battlefield, followed by the newer and more powerful skills you get to nuke your grouped enemies.
Here's the major problem with your analogy:

You can sell older and useless equipment.  Skills you learned at the beginning of the game pretty much always remain permanent.  This is why it's important for all your older skills to remain useful up to the end of the game.  If you couldn't sell or get rid of your equipment, I'd hold the same stance on the equipment in your game as well.  If it has to stay with my characters until the end of the game it needs to remain useful for the duration.  Otherwise, it's a waste of skills, a waste of space, and a waste of time.  Especially since you don't really get into territory where you need specific skills to do things until about midgame when weapons and armor start providing what you need so it doesn't waste MP (like elemental weapons and armor with regen or wall or what-have-you).

If you want your skills to have a "sign of progression", then you need to either upgrade the current skills as you go or delete older skills as you go.  Otherwise, you're just creating massive amounts of clutter in battle and in your menus.
 

Fafnir

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Radiant Historia did everything right forever and should be mandatory playing for any aspiring RPG maker.
 

Eschaton

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Is it a JRPG?  Sounds like one.
 

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