Shields. Actually using them in combat

[CWells]

I dunno bout you but I don't like the idea of merely equipping a shield in battle to have it just simply raise DEF or MDF so long as it is equipped. No, I think shields should be used instead of worn. So what I do instead is instead of adding a parameter increase to DEF or MDF or whatever, I give a skill for each type of shield. And to make use of it, the player must activate that skill to get the defensive benefits of the shield. Because I thought that would be better.

End of really random rant.

 

[Litzana]

I had the same kind of thought ^^

 

[HumanNinjaToo]

Sounds like a cool idea to me. Would this replace the Guard skill?

 

[CWells]

Sounds like a cool idea to me. Would this replace the Guard skill?

No, one can just treat the guard skill as a standard for unarmed folk :/ So it can be its own thing too.

But these shield required guard skills can add either a 1 or 2 turn state that do all sorts of things:

Increase counter

put up magic reflection

PDR MDR effect

Block Stun state or certain element strikes, whatever you want of course..

 

[Harmill]

I think it'd be cool if you could learn/equip unique skills for having a shield equipped. Especially if said character has the choice between equipping a shield or using a two-handed weapon or dual-wielding. It provides further incentive over "just having more DEF", which in my experience, is usually not as useful as having more ATK. Or...imagine a unique shield that has some sort of monster face on it (let's say dragon), and its unique skill is not defensive, but a fire breath attack! 

Aside from active skills, there should be more passive benefits from having shields. Many ninja/assassin character types tend to use Evasion as their primary defensive attribute, and successful evades completely negate incoming damage. Or simply equipping Shoes/Boots can give you extra EVA. Going back to shields, it'd be nice to give shields their own unique take of Evasion through the use of Shield Block. A good example is seen in Suikoden III, where anyone who could equip a shield had access to a passive skill called Shield Protect, and the higher the rank of the skill, the better your chances of you completely negating incoming damage by blocking the attack with your shield. Alternatively, you could replace the Shield Protect skill with simple percentages tied to specific shields so that some shields have better chances of activating the Shield Block effect.

 

[Probotector 200X]

Yeah, in some RPGs, shields don't raise defense, much, instead they focus on giving you a chance to block attacks completely. I like it being separate from evasion, because blocking and evading are different! Especially if some attacks are "piercing", then the shield fails. (I also love it when games distinguish missing and evading)

As for shield skills, something I try to work in, but don't seem to. Not that I have a complete project without shield skills or anything. I mean, Ace encourages you to make shield skills, for having a neat little "shield technique" icon by the "weapon technique" icons.

If not that, I love the idea of the Guard command changing based on the equipped shield.

 

[CWells]

If not that, I love the idea of the Guard command changing based on the equipped shield.

Oh yeah, that's what the GRD rate is for in SP-Parameter You can set how strong the guard is based on whatever shield you have equipped. There's a nice passive ability to play with.

 

[Mouser]

I've got the shield block thing going. I think it's a much better mechanic than just stacking on more DEF.

When it works (ie: when I've got it balanced right), you have to weigh the pro's and con's of having that extra block vs. the extra damage from a 2H weapon. How much each affects your speed factor (which effects your evasion and your chance to strikethrough your enemy's evasion) plays a role as well. For some enemies one set is the superior choice. For others, you want to go the other way. Mooks generally you want as much damage as possible to mow them down quickly, while more powerful enemies make you rely on surviving longer.

 

[ArcaneEli]

yeah I didn't like that either or helmets just raise defense so I slightlyl adjusted it to this:

Headgear: +low armor, +ok magicresist

Body: +good armor, +very low magic resist, +very low HP

Shield: +low armor, +evasion (until I find a script to block attacks, even though they are kinda similar...)

Acc: +all around stats.

 

[JiM83]

You could try this shield block script by Mr. Bubble for VX Ace.

http://mrbubblewand.wordpress.com/rgss3/shield-blocking/

 

[CWells]

Yes, got that script. I've yet to put it in game. But it is on my to do list.

 

[Mouser]

If you do use shield block, you've got to be careful balancing it.

10-15% shield block is a HUGE boost to defense (potentially equivalent to double HP or more).

If you're balancing it compared to 2H weapons, you've got to give those weapons a lot more damage to make them worth using.

 

[CWells]

If you do use shield block, you've got to be careful balancing it.

10-15% shield block is a HUGE boost to defense (potentially equivalent to double HP or more).

If you're balancing it compared to 2H weapons, you've got to give those weapons a lot more damage to make them worth using.

But a shield should be blocking most damage anyway. Skyrim comes to mind here. When you block with a shield, you take damage but it is dependent on how much force is behind the blow. Regardless, you can block up to 80% of an incoming attack with a shield in Skyrim if you get the stats right. That isn't too much given the amount of hp a character has and the fact that blocking a power hit can leave you stunned. One would hope that a shield blocks a bunch of damage.

Unless I'm reading it wrong and a shield block means that the actual DEF parameter is increased by 10 to 15% to mimic blocking? If so, I'll probably avoid using that and instead use PDR and MDR block states that will come from the skills attached to my shields. This way, you are blocking 80% of damage but are avoiding immunnity, not breaking the skills/balance in the game. Or in this case, me since it's my work XD.

 

[Mouser]

But a shield should be blocking most damage anyway. Skyrim comes to mind here. When you block with a shield, you take damage but it is dependent on how much force is behind the blow. Regardless, you can block up to 80% of an incoming attack with a shield in Skyrim if you get the stats right. That isn't too much given the amount of hp a character has and the fact that blocking a power hit can leave you stunned. One would hope that a shield blocks a bunch of damage.

Unless I'm reading it wrong and a shield block means that the actual DEF parameter is increased by 10 to 15% to mimic blocking? If so, I'll probably avoid using that and instead use PDR and MDR block states that will come from the skills attached to my shields. This way, you are blocking 80% of damage but are avoiding immunnity, not breaking the skills/balance in the game. Or in this case, me since it's my work XD.

When I say shield block, I mean the shield blocks: you don't take any damage. 10% shield block means that one out of every ten attacks that would have hit you won't. Over the course of a long battle, say a boss fight, that's a lot of damage averted. I assumed (and we all know what happens when we do that) the shield block script mentioned would do the same thing.

 

[Harmill]

I would treat Shield Block similarly to Evasion since they mechanically work the same way. 10% Shield Block is just as powerful as 10% Evasion, if not weaker since it at least requires a Shield to be equipped while Evasion tends to be an innate statistic or something tied to the Boots or Accessory slot.

 

[BlissAuthority]

Ehhhnnn...

The thing about having a shield block ability is that on every turn you're blocking, you aren't doing damage.

It had better be goddamned powerful, and your enemies had better telegraph thier best attacks, or it's going to be worthless.

 

[CWells]

Ehhhnnn...

The thing about having a shield block ability is that on every turn you're blocking, you aren't doing damage.

It had better be goddamned powerful, and your enemies had better telegraph thier best attacks, or it's going to be worthless.

Choices and timing.

 

[BlissAuthority]

Choices and timing.

Yep.  But it's not a choice or matter of timing unless you have some warning.

 

[Harmill]

I should've made the distinction that I didn't suggest Shield Block with the idea that it'd be tied to the Guard command. It's a PASSIVE skill that you have simply by equipping a shield. Whenever you are attacked, regardless of what you chose to do that turn, you have X% chance to completely negate the damage from that attack. It works just like Evasion does except it requires you to equip a shield. My reference source was Suikoden III, where it was actually BETTER than Evasion because it worked against both Physical AND Magical attacks while Evasion was ONLY against Physical attacks. It was also an actual Passive SKILL that required you to learn and upgrade rather than just equipping a Shield and getting a 10% proc rate right off the bat. It was an excellent Skill for Tank characters to have equipped but it didn't make them overpowered. Tank characters also didn't have that great offensive capabilities, so the fact that they were harder to kill didn't make them OMG OP MUST HAVE IN PARTY.

Even if it was reduced to be an addition to the Guard command, I don't see why it would be useless. By the logic of "you're not dealing damage that turn", the standard Guard command is useless as well. You'd probably want the Proc rate to be higher than if it was a Passive skill though. 10% Shield Block as a Passive Skill is pretty good, but a 10% Shield Block that is only possible when Guarding might not be that useful. Also, in a party of 2-4 members, having ONE character guarding isn't really useless when you're choosing the command for a reason.

 

[BlissAuthority]

I should've made the distinction that I didn't suggest Shield Block with the idea that it'd be tied to the Guard command. It's a PASSIVE skill that you have simply by equipping a shield. Whenever you are attacked, regardless of what you chose to do that turn, you have X% chance to completely negate the damage from that attack. It works just like Evasion does except it requires you to equip a shield.

Ah. Carry on, then.

Even if it was reduced to be an addition to the Guard command, I don't see why it would be useless. By the logic of "you're not dealing damage that turn", the standard Guard command is useless as well.

But that's exactly what I'm saying!     In games not designed around monsters with tells for thier big attacks, the default Guard command IS fuctionally useless!

In games where the monsters DO have tells for thier attacks, Guard is indispensable.  See also: Persona 3 and 4.

You'd probably want the Proc rate to be higher than if it was a Passive skill though. 10% Shield Block as a Passive Skill is pretty good, but a 10% Shield Block that is only possible when Guarding might not be that useful. Also, in a party of 2-4 members, having ONE character guarding isn't really useless when you're choosing the command for a reason.

Sure.  All I'm saying is to give the player a reason instead of a prayer.