Should I go with RM2K3 or MV?

[Parallax Panda]

So I've been using RPG maker XP, VXace and now MV - but never RM2K3. It wasn't buy:able back when it was relevant after all. Anyway, considering I already own a copy of the above RPGmakers is it crazy of me to think that RM2K3 might actually be the better choice for my current project?



Let me explain some things and then add some questions at the end.
 


While MV is by far the best version I've used so far thanks to, not exclusively but mostly, the plugin feature, I still don't like the increased tile size and resolution. As a pixel artist I consider 48x48 to be a very unattractive format. And in my game I want to use 16x16 grid, tall sprites and 320x240 resolution with the possibility to zoom (which I believe the updated RM2K3 have?).
 


For MV there is of course a plugin to change the tile size as well as the resolution, but it's a bit of a pain to do so. Especially considering that even if I change the resolution with Yanfly's Core plugin you can't really make it into something like 320x240. Why? Because that will BREAK the menu and battle screen, BADLY. And I might be wrong but I've not seen a fix for this because not many people who use MV seems to think that there is much point in using such a low resolution, and if you're not into pixel graphics then I guess there isn't. But it's a big thing for me and my project.



The fact that I want to make a RPG that looks and feels like it would be on SNES or Mega Drive is the main lure of RM2K3. Another reason for me to use a small resolution and 16x16 tiles is because I want to make BIG maps which lots of events. And while changing the tile size in MV would grant the same benefits, I've heard that RM2K3's eventing system is actually better and has better performance.



My third and last reason might seem silly to some, but I want a more retro looking font to go with the 16-bit style. Of course I could change it in MV but that could turn out to be a hassle in itself because font licenses are usually very expensive. And since I kind of have to re-distribute the font with my project that can be a problem even if it turns out I don't need a license to use it. RM2K3 on the other hand does seem to have a nice retro font pre-packaged.
A bonus would be that it also isn't so recognizable, compared to what you see in most VXace and MV games where not only the RTP but also the font feels done to death.
 


Now that's my thoughts on the subject so far. But as I mentioned I also have some questions that I'd hope to find some answers to.
 


1a. Is RM2K3's event system REALLY so much better than MV's? If so, I would appreciate if someone told me exactly why.
2a. The last update for the re-released RM2K3 seems to have been in September last year. I realize most of you wouldn't know about this but I'm still curious if that was the last update? Is there any reason to belive that there might be more bug fixes or features added or is this engine "dead"?
3a. As I understand it RM2K3 (and RM2K3 games) have been made compatible with newer operating systems but does this include the recently released Windows 10? Also, is there still some problems on newer systems because of the old architecture?
4a. If I were to release a game STEAM for example, is it even possible to add achievements or is that something that can't be done without scripting?
5a. I heard that the EULA got patched. So generally speaking, what can/can't I do now compared to before? What's the big change?
 


I don't believe that the game I want to make is technically advanced but that doesn't mean everything is possible or easy in RM2K3 since it has to be evented. So here are some questions regarding the possibility and difficulty for a few features I might want to add in my game.
 


1b. Diagonal movement.
2b. Front view battle system (like Pokémon) without the need to event a whole new one. Say, can you just re-position the sprites and/or use images and common events in the default one etc?
3b. Use overlays for shadows and light (possibly at the same time) on large maps.
4b. Evented moving battle encounters which gives the player or enemies preemptive attacks when attacking from the back.


Also I almost feel stupid for asking but better safe than sorry. The font that is included in RM2K3 doesn't need any weird licensing businesses, it's free to distribute right? I wouldn't even have to credit someone for it... or would I?
 


That's all but feel free to tell me any other reason why I should or shouldn't use RM2K3 for my game (that might or might not end up on steam) instead of MV.

Also, thanks for reading my text wall!

 

[Andar]

I'll answer only those questions I know the answer:


1a) RM2K(3)  had one feature in the control variable command that had been removed in all makers since XP and later: Indirect reference.


Basically you could control a variable not by giving its number directly, but by loading its number from another variable.


Using that feature requires a lot of knowledge, but it enabled systems that had needed very complex scripts since then. And from all I heard I can only guess that was also the reason why it was removed: it was too complex for the average japanese customer base


5a) Not exactly.


The EULA wasn't patched, but an additional EULA concerning Patches to the engine was released.


That EULA became neccessary to determine which patches are legal and what are the results of patching, because only patches can change the engine.


Basically a patch is only legal if it was done with a legal version and kept all laws, and if you're still using a (legal) patch you're voiding support for the engine.


The last part is because Degica can't check every patch for stability, so it's use at your own risk.

 

[Sixth]

1a) RM2K(3)  had one feature in the control variable command that had been removed in all makers since XP and later: Indirect reference.


Basically you could control a variable not by giving its number directly, but by loading its number from another variable.


Using that feature requires a lot of knowledge, but it enabled systems that had needed very complex scripts since then. And from all I heard I can only guess that was also the reason why it was removed: it was too complex for the average japanese customer base

I might misunderstand something here but...

Spoiler

This is from ACE.


Not to mention the other possibilities there (you can do literally anything with the Script option).


No idea how other versions got this aside from MV, but these two got that feature you described (if I understood it right).


To answer a few other questions:


4a. You will definitely need scripts here.


The only reason you should use MV over the others is it's GPU support, and that is only needed if you make something more complex in your game which requires some more PC "firepower". And probably the fact that that engine gets updates still, and there is much more support for it than for the older ones (especially if we are talking about a very old engine like RM2K3). 


And while we are at the performance question... I noticed that you wrote that RM2K3 has better performance? I find that hard to believe for the reason I mentioned above (MV is the first RPG Maker engine with GPU support).


The font issue... Can't you just use the one from RM2K3 in MV? I thought you can use any resources from any RPG Maker in any RPG Maker engine as long as you own the relevant engines yourself. I might be wrong here though, but you should definitely check this out for yourself. It should be included in the ToS in the relevant engines.

 

[Andar]

I might misunderstand something here but...

yes, you misunderstood


This is the control variable of RM2K3


The example will NOT control the variable 241 (named Pointer), but it will load the number from that variable and control the variable that has that number.


If the variable 241ointer contains the number 10, then variable 10 will be set to zero.


Same for the option Variable ID (take the number in that variable as the ID of the variable from where you really load the operand)

 

[Sixth]

Ahh, I see.


Although I don't know why would that be complicated in any way.


That can easily be replicated by using short script calls anyway, so it is really not much of a loss, in my opinion.

 

[Parallax Panda]

I realized that I forgot to mention that pixels in MV does not appear to be as crisp as they do in RM2K3, even in lower resolution. I imagine that this could have to do with the way MV scales the images. Does MV use something like bilinear interpolation maybe, since the MV "RTP" is not actually pixel art but painted and thus could benefit from it? And while I'm on it, can anyone tell me what method RM2K3 is using when you extend it to fullscreen? Nearest Neighbor?

Andar




I see. And I'm guessing a patch is necessary to edit the .EXE icon and or name to mention on thing? Does this mean that it is legal to use any of those patches which allowed plugins for RM2K3 by the way?


Sixth






Yes, well regarding the performance I do imagine that MV is made better, it would be strange if it wasn't. I don't know about the effectiveness of the event processing but I'm sure I read somewhere on this forum that a few people claimed that RM2K3's events where more performance efficient. But I don't own the engine (yet) and I'm not an expert on this so I have no idea myself. It would be great if someone who knows explained this.

But the resolution and tile size (which I can't emulate in MV because it breaks the menu) is something that would make it easier to make larger maps with better performance. Of course the map size would probably still be about the same in reality, but the same sized map would still feel about 3x bigger for the player, and that's all that matters.

I don't know what legal issues there might be with using the font from RM2K3 in MV and as you say, it could be worth looking into. But if I'm not mistaken I don't think RM2K3 have the font lying around in a folder. I think it's embedded or something like that, which would complicate the whole process even if it was legal.

 

[Andar]

I realized that I forgot to mention that pixels in MV does not appear to be as crisp as they do in RM2K3, even in lower resolution. I imagine that this could have to do with the way MV scales the images.

MV doesn't scale the images at all - the reason why they're not "crisp" is that the stock resources are not done as pixel art.


If you do pixel art in MV, it will look like you want - it's just a lot more work, because the grid now contains 48x48 pixels for everything.

 

[Parallax Panda]

Andar
 



Interesting, but you have me confused at the same time. How can it not scale the image if you force full screen?
I've actually also tried using the DS resource packs and as I remember, it did look extremely blurry when I changed the resolution to 320x240 (with the help of Yanfly's core plugin).

 

[Andar]

you have me confused at the same time. How can it not scale the image if you force full screen?

It depends on how it is done, but in neither case it's MV that scales - it's either Windows or the graphic driver or the monitor electronics that do the scaling.


And if you had an older non-TFT monitor, it wouldn't scale at all because those could be switched to any resolution (not fixed to the numbers of pixels in the screen as they used a different technology)

 

[Parallax Panda]

Andar




This is exceeding my area of knowledge. But do you know how (and if) RM2K3 does it any differently? Because I recently played Ara Fell which had sharper pixels at the right resolution compared to anything I've achieved in MV (which always seems to be a little blurred at 320x240, no matter the tile set used). I should mention that unless I use such a low resolution (with Yanfly's plugin) MV does look sharp.

I'll let this be my final question on that subject since I hope someone finds this thread and answers the other questions I asked as well.
 

 

[Kamillo]

New RM2k3 use cherry's script for scale screen, so this isn't blurred. Other RMs not use script and this is depend from your graphics card, monitor etc. Old RM2k3 and DirectDraw mode in new 2k3 is blurred in new monitors.


1a Event in RM2k3 is the best, you can add 100 and more event in one map and this run very good. In new RMs more than 50 (in RMXP 20) is lagged in more than 30x30 tiles map.


RM2k3 have more command and the best conditional in start page event.


2a Update maybe be, maybe not be, I don't know.


3a Propably in windows 10 is OK.


4a SREAM - maybe with patch, in old RM2k3 with dynRPG should be can, but this is unofficialy.


5a Patch EULA - If you can reverse enginnering and coding - yes this add a lot of things. But practical this is for change icon and EXFONT in RPG_RT.


1b Diagonal movement - is of course, but this buuged all hero contact and event contact events, for this is another way, but very strange.


2b Battle view - you delete hero graphics and make front view battlers.


3b Picture, and new plus events in RM2k3, picture can scroll one moment with map, this is delete in new RMs


4b Maybe in event write this system.


And font from RM2k3 can't use in new RMs, because new RMs not have bitmap font, only truetype.


Fonts in RM2k3 are MS Gothic and MS Mincho.

 

[Parallax Panda]

@Kamillo

Thank you for taking your time to reply to all my questions, I realize this part of the forums is not as active as the MV support part so I was wondering whether or not anyone else would reply. I did suspect that diagonal movement might not work properly, but it's actually a non issue for me since it's not really a needed feature. Still wanted to know if it was possible to get a grasp around the limitations I'd have to build around.

As of now the biggest loss of using RM2K3 for a commercial project would probably be the difficultly (if it would be possible) to add STEAM achievements. Again, it's not a necessary feature but I imagine that the lack of it can disappoint a certain type of players, and I would never consider having it as a negative. But I'm not a talented coder so unless someone else made a (legal) patch for that, I would just scrap that feature.

I might not have understood your answer to 3b. Is there a tutorial och something written anywhere that would explain how this would be done in detail in RM2K3? Unlike the above features, overlays are crucial to the game's aesthetics and I need to know any limitations on the possibilities present here.

Also regarding 1a I would say the number of events you can have in one map in any other maker depends on what kind of event you are referring to so your comparison is not clear. Counting any type of event (even static events with or without graphics) I have easily used more than 50 events in a larger map than 30x30 without performance issues. And I use a rather old laptop. But if it's true that RM2K3 handles them better (and therefore can handle more) that would be a big plus of course. And I've heard others say that is the case as well although I cannot remember exactly who.

 

[Kamillo]

3b - picture, big picture with transparent. If you want effect alpha chanel (RM2k3 not has this) you can display more pictures with a few transparent value and make alpha channel effect.


1a. VX ACE is really good for event, but make this with a few strange things, for example events without game screen not move. In RM2k3 all events move etc. RM2k3 has really the best event system in RM series. I don't know how say about this, you must see alone.