Should I really go commercial?

[Shaz]

You may as well be talking about a game made in RPG Maker, because there are some people who wouldn't buy it because it's in RPG Maker. Or a 2D game because there are some people who won't buy 2D games. Or an RPG, because there are some people who won't buy an RPG.


Why would you try and make a game that appeals to everybody? It's not possible. Yes, you would turn some people away by having a homosexual character. But there are others who would buy the game when they normally wouldn't just because of that fact. Whether it's offered commercially or for free makes little difference (apart from the fact that some portals may or may not want to distribute it for you, but you may not be interested in going down that road anyway).


btw - this is the first time I've ever heard the term "bigot" used to refer to someone who's opposed to homosexuality. And if you think there are haters on homosexuality, just have a reread of some of the opinions expressed in this thread and tell me there isn't a corresponding hating going on right here.

 

[Makio-Kuta]

Wait...since when does having queer characters mean your game suddenly is sexual or can't be rated 'E'? I don't remember the original post mentioning anything about the game having R rated content.

 

[CzarSquid]

Wait...since when does having queer characters mean your game suddenly is sexual or can't be rated 'E'? I don't remember the original post mentioning anything about the game having R rated content.

It's not about if gay themes are E or R rated. The point that Shaz and I are both trying to point out that by reducing the controversial topics in a game will allow more people to enjoy it and therefore would be more profitable. I used the rating system as an example that some companies remove certain elements in a game (violence, drug references) so that people, who might get offended by these elements, would be more willing to buy these games.

 

[Shaz]

um ... I didn't make that point at all. Sorry.


My point was people will refuse, or choose, to buy a game for many reasons. Why decide whether or not to go commercial, based on one reason alone?


I did state that some portals may refuse to carry a game that has certain themes. But I think "hinting" at it and explicitly stating/showing/shoving it in your face are very different things.


I did not imply that changing the content would allow more people to enjoy it or make it more profitable.

 

[Indrah]

Nobody gives a ****.

And those who do somehow are not your target audience in any case.

As long as no aspects are presented in an offensive manner, you're fine. This goes for EVERYHTING, depictions of: violence, any sexuality, religion, etc. 

If the game is good then you're fine.

A character being homosexual and not making a big deal out of it is not a controversial topic by itself, it gets forced to be controversial by people with way too much time and vitriol in their hands. As long as ANY character or relationship in a game is HANDLED WELL, there is no problem. It would be one thing if it was an offensively gay stereotype, but I don't think it's the case of what you describe.

Being homosexual is not a MESSAGE, it's merely a trait in a whole BUNCH OF TRAITS any single character can have. I don't like the concept of fanatism, but that doesn't mean I will antagonize a GAME if some characters are fanatics (political, religious, classic cults, whatever); they're PART of a game, not the message. AGAIM, as long as the execution is well done, all is well.

On a different note, if this is your first game I really don't recommend at all starting out with a commercial project. Crank out at least another one first to actually learn how to make games and use the engine. 

 

[Oddball]

@Indrah: this is actually project #11 on my computer. I did a bunch of other test projects to goof around with the program, and this is the fourth incarnation of this project. But I suppose I'll wait until I get a free demo out, and get feedback on how well I'm doing before I decide for sure

Oh, and may I also point out this game...

 

[Makio-Kuta]

Tinkles must die is not a commercial game though. It is a fine example of someone doing a bang up job on their first released project, but it isn't an example of someone going commercial on their first released project.

 

[Indrah]

Yeah, Tinkles isn't a commercial game. 

 

[Oddball]

It is a fine example of someone doing a bang up job on their first released project

This was my point. I am a little more reserved now about going commercial with my first game though, and I know there's a possibility I might not do as well as I could have. Though, I'm saying it is possible to do a good job with your first project

 

[Kyuukon]

Yeee, it's not easy but if you put enough work it's totally doable. It really depends on the person. Don't let some comments stop you, just do what you think it's right for you Whether your characters are gay or not is the least of your problems xD

I was too tempted on going commercial with my first project but I realized that, probably, the best course of action is to build a fan base with a decent free game and start from there after. I'm learning a lot from making this one and I already have some plans for my second project, that's going to be definitely a commercial one. But like I say, follow your heart xD!

Good luck!

 

[Indrah]

While it's an enjoyable game, tinkles still has a few problems that crop up in first projects that would need to be ironed out for a commercial release. 

I dunno, personally I would not pick up a game if I knew it was the first project of a RM user.

Additonally commercial development comes with a lot of added pressure, so it may sour or add on unnecessary hampering to your first time launching a game with RM. (Many things that you only learn by actually finishing and releasing a RM game, I think)

 

[Oddball]

I suppose I am a little hasty to make back the investment i put into this. I also do understand that a first game might not be as polished as an experienced RM user. I do understand that, it's why I'm only shooting at recouping my investment. because I don't expect much else

I also do understand what your saying. You can't really do these things in a vacuum, you need input to learn things to pay attention to in the future

BTW, do you say the novice errors in your play through of Tinkle's? Iv'e never really gotten the chance to watch it all the way through

 

[amerk]

This was my point. I am a little more reserved now about going commercial with my first game though, and I know there's a possibility I might not do as well as I could have. Though, I'm saying it is possible to do a good job with your first project

It may be their first released, but more likely not their first made. I doubt anybody can go into game design and produces a good game without first having studied and practiced a bit of the trade. While my own released project is nowhere as good as Tinkles, I can't tell you how many other games I started and scrapped as a result of trying to figure things out. I'd bet the developers behind Tinkles probably has a few other "never released" titles.

But you do make a good point. As flawed as some freebies are, it does tend to put pressure on some commercial developers. If you can't make a game that is as good (if not better) than some of the free ones we see, you may not have a successful title.

Then you got the actual challenge of actually selling the game. The reason some game companies, like Nintendo, aim for an E rating is they are trying to please everyone without offending anyone.

And that may be one of the reasons Nintendo suffers more these days than they have in the past. While I enjoy SMB, and Zelda, and the like, playing rehashes of the same games over and over again gets old. Nintendo used to take risks, and for awhile they were the gaming systems to own (NES, SNES, GB, GBC, and GBA), but these days they try to cater to the family audience way too much. It's not like it was in the 70's and 80's where most families had one TV and one game console, and they all gathered in the living room to play. Now most families will have at least two TVs if not more, and possibly access to at least two gaming devices, not to mention mobile, tablets, and handheld. Games like Zelda and SMB are now more fun to play on the go.

Nintendo really needs to get it together or they'll go the way of Sega and Atari. And once that happens I'll probably be done with gaming consoles entirely and just go directly PC, since I'm not a big fan of the latest X-box and Playstation consoles.

Pushing this back on topic:

Shaz is right. You can't please everybody.

It's an unrealistic goal to have. You should focus on who your niche audience is going to be and try to cater to them in the best way possible. But quality is the most important. As long as the game isn't being preachy or trying to shove an agenda done my face, I don't care. But that's the way of all games I play. I don't play games for moral purposes - I have religion and family for that - but I do play them to have fun, relax, and be entertained.

If I can find that here, I don't care if one character is gay and another is straight. If I choose not to play it, it's not going to be because a gay or lesbian appeared in the game. It's going to be because I wasn't interested, the game was poorly designed, or I had more pressing things to attend to.

 

[sabao]

Here's a question: A lot of people (Particularly Westerners who are especially responsive toward this whole political correctness issue) reject games with an agenda. What does that mean, exactly? Every creative endeavor ideally imparts a message from its creator: war is bad (This War of Mine), religion is still a human institution and therefore still fallible (FF Tactics), or people are dicks, but sometimes capable of being so much more (Every MOBA, ever). Would imparting these messages be considered an 'agenda'? Because if so, I don't see a problem with it.

Why is it okay to portray war or violence and we raise an eyebrow at anything that seeks to reflect on issues of race, sexuality, or faith? These stories may discuss issues we still face today, and I believe a large part of why they still remain contentious is there's a lack of communication between sides. Through an interactive medium like games we are able to vicariously experience how it is to be in someone else's shoes: their thought process, aspirations, and struggle. Holden Caulfield of Salinger's Catcher in the Rye was a little prick, but we catch insight into why. *bleep* of Suikoden wants to blow the world up, but after three whole games/generations of experiencing war and the dark side of humanity firsthand, we can't help but empathize, even if only a little.When constructed properly, anything with a message is worth looking into, even if you don't necessarily agree with it.

 

[Oddball]

 I can't tell you how many other games I started and scrapped as a result of trying to figure things out. I'd bet the developers behind Tinkles probably has a few other "never released" titles.

@Indrah: this is actually project #11 on my computer. I did a bunch of other test projects to goof around with the program, and this is the fourth incarnation of this project. But I suppose I'll wait until I get a free demo out, and get feedback on how well I'm doing before I decide for sure

As Iv'e already stated before, iv'e done this

Would imparting these messages be considered an 'agenda'? Because if so, I don't see a problem with it.

Espeacily if that message is about how we treat people. The bigger message of my game is supposed to make people think about how we're infecting the enviornment. but neither of those issue's are really all that bad, and should be thought about more

Lol, just realized i said Infected instead of affected, but really there's no difference sense our carbon emissions are causing permafrost to melt releasing methane into the atmosphere

Edit: I tell the enviornmental message through something everyone can relate to. the seven stages of grief. If you even look at the charecters I put in plot & charecter feedback, you can see that each one has qualities that represent one of the seven stages. though, those arn't all of there qualities. Each of the different parts of the first half of the game reprersent one of the seven stages of grief

 

[Tsukihime]

Espeacily if that message is about how we treat people. The bigger message of my game is supposed to make people think about how we're infecting the enviornment. but neither of those issue's are really all that bad, and should be thought about more


Lol, just realized i said Infected instead of affected, but really there's no difference sense our carbon emissions are causing permafrost to melt releasing methane into the atmosphere

There are actually groups of people that don't believe humans should try to co-exist with the environment (we are top of food chain kind of theology), or that those "tree huggers"/"scientists" should stop spewing their "pessimistic end-of-the-world beliefs" like how resources like wood or oil are going to be depleted eventually (a very cornucopian view) or this whole "global warming conspiracy" (who doesn't like conspiracies, or celebrities).


They'd probably take offense in anything that tries to convince humans around them otherwise, just as much as any other type of message.

 

[Oddball]

Yea, well. I'm going ahead with it anyway. Especially sense it's so subtle, that it doesn't feel like it's being forced down your throat

 

[Makio-Kuta]

Best of luck with your game! I'm glad you've decided to stick with what you want.

 

[Wavelength]

There are a lot of good reasons not to go commercial (for example, your game isn't exceptional, or doesn't have a convincing selling point), but inclusion of a gay/lesbian character is not one.  I think most gamers like this kind of thing as of late.  Heck, Kanji from Persona 4 (a very popular game) was one of the best-liked characters and they practically beat the player over the head with his (apparent) homosexuality.  For that matter, Rise was a wanton and shameless flirt (something you don't see much in RPGs, especially ones that make it to NA), and she was also one of the best-liked characters in the game!

 

[Alkorri]

Sorry for being late to the party, since I was in a deadline. I am not quite sure why my game Tinkles got mentioned suddenly (thanks, though!), but going back to Oddball's original question, I echo some people's sentiments that you shouldn't let any controversial theme daunt you into going commercial.

What matters to me more is the quality of the product. Very simply, it should be about fun gameplay + strong story + great characters.

It may be their first released, but more likely not their first made. I doubt anybody can go into game design and produces a good game without first having studied and practiced a bit of the trade. While my own released project is nowhere as good as Tinkles, I can't tell you how many other games I started and scrapped as a result of trying to figure things out. I'd bet the developers behind Tinkles probably has a few other "never released" titles.

Thanks, amerk. Tinkles really was my first project ever It's just that my background is journalism and game design, and Tinkles was essentially my excuse to learn the RM engine.