SHOWING "NUMBERS" INGAME

[Wazzzyki]

Good day!~

I have two points here that I'd like to hear about

*Is it "good?" to not show stats ingame?
- I'm thinking about removing or hiding the status "numbers" in game. So it will be like you do not have a direct idea as to how strong a character is in comparison to another.

*Removing/hiding damage numbers
- How difficult, frustrating, confusing? would it be if damage amounts would be removed in a game.

 

[Rinobi]

There was a thread similar to this not too long ago.
Basically, hiding any information of relevance is a no no.
It will only annoy your players.

 

[Kes]

Just to add to that point, anything which reduces possible strategy to mere guesswork, where at best I'm trying to get by with mind reading the dev is a recipe for frustration and probable rage quit.

A serious question, not a rhetorical one - why on earth would you want to do this? I haven't been able to think of a single decent reason.

 

[Wavelength]

I usually go more in-depth with mechanics analysis, but there's no need to here: this is a terrible thing to do and you should not do it. The more information that's available to your player, the better.

 

[kirbwarrior]

Numbers are how the player understands how the world works. I can't possibly imagine understanding what is going on if I can't (for instance) see my attack, the enemy hp, and how much damage I'm doing. I would have literally no idea if I'm doing something right or wrong.

Note, this is assuming you are making any form of rpg. Platformers don't need it (and even then, Super Paper Mario). Even action games have either incredibly simplistic systems or numbers shown as symbols (Zelda has swords that double in damage each upgrade and hearts for HP).

The more information that's available to your player, the better.

Even in TRPGs like Fire Emblem, you can look at every stat on the field and you still don't have always have enough information.

 

[Frogboy]

I think the best way you pull this off is to still roughly show how hurt any given creature is without using numbers to do so. You can do so with sprite changes that progressively show damage or at the very least, apply states to indicate as much. This method also gives you other options to work with like making players and creatures weaker as the take more damage, change up monster strategies etc.

 

[TheoAllen]

Your game is an action (RPG), you're free to hide your stats. I played a game where I had no access to see the character stats, and how much damage I dealt. Granted, the game is only one man party, and the equip items are quite obvious to tell which is stronger. I can only tell that these and those enemies need x hits to kill with certain weapon. The only 'number' to show is character HP, and that's all

 

[mauvebutterfly]

The complexity of the game can affect this to some extent. If you have a bunch of really complicated calculations happening all the time it may be overwhelming for the player to deal with, so hiding some of the complexity could be a good thing. As long as the player understands how they can improve their character, and how the stats generally do this, you've covered the important part.

On the other hand, serious gamers often like to understand not only what (e.g. agility increases critical evasion) but also how (every point of agility reduces the chance of you being hit by a critical attack by 0.4%). If your game is so complicated that you feel the need to hide information from the player, it might be a good idea to consider whether your game really needs to be that complicated in the first place.

If you are hiding information to generate artificial difficulty, don't. Nobody likes this.

 

[kirbwarrior]

If you have a bunch of really complicated calculations happening all the time it may be overwhelming for the player to deal with, so hiding some of the complexity could be a good thing. As long as the player understands how they can improve their character, and how the stats generally do this, you've covered the important part.

One of the biggest gripes about Pokemon is how little you actually know about what is happening with your pokemon. I agree that, if your game is complicated, having a general stat page is handy and showing enough for any player to at least "get" what is going on, but there should be some way to see all information. What do natures mean? Have I maxed my EVs yet (and what are they)?
Another example; I had no idea for the longest time in FFX that strength was cubed for damage calculation. I now actually know how strength works. Never occurred to me it would work like that.
It's fine (and good!) to not overwhelm your players with information, but it should also be there to find if the player wants. The journal system could hold information on what a stat does (oh, agility increases crit? Neato). The "Scan" spell in most FFs can tell me the enemy stats (I believe FFX-2 actually does tell you every single possible stat to know).
(Once again assuming rpg. Other games use other methods to help you understand what is going on).

 

[mauvebutterfly]

I agree that, if your game is complicated, having a general stat page is handy and showing enough for any player to at least "get" what is going on, but there should be some way to see all information.

Yeah, having access to all the information is nice. I guess what I was trying to say was that a summary page is the minimum, but the removed information should still be available elsewhere.

Taking the OP's idea of hiding stats to a further extreme, I could see a game where your character has a level. As your level goes up you get stronger, but you don't know how you get stronger. Stats increase, but you don't see them increase, and you just have to "feel" their effect by being more effective against enemies.

Honestly, that doesn't sound very satisfying to me. A stronger case could probably be made for a game with useless stats that visibly increase, since at least in that case a casual player gets the dopamine hit from seeing their stats increase. (But don't do that either. It's also a bad idea.)

 

[Canini]

A serious question, not a rhetorical one - why on earth would you want to do this? I haven't been able to think of a single decent reason.

I can´t speak for OP, but the most obvious reason I can think of would to create greater immersion. Floating bars and numbers, helpful as they may be, is a constant reminder that you are playing a game and not exploring a real breathing world. That said, unless health and the damage you take is represented as something else (making characters look more ragged as they take damage, bigger blows making big slash animations etc) it is probably not worth experimenting with.

 

[kirbwarrior]

I can´t speak for OP, but the most obvious reason I can think of would to create greater immersion. Floating bars and numbers, helpful as they may be, is a constant reminder that you are playing a game and not exploring a real breathing world. That said, unless health and the damage you take is represented as something else (making characters look more ragged as they take damage, bigger blows making big slash animations etc) it is probably not worth experimenting with.

I can see that in a more action-oriented game. I remember seeing one where your health was hidden away on your back (just enough for the camera to see) with a "heartbeat" look similar to Silent Hill. All weapons you wielded weren't about "doing damage" but doing effects. There weren't numbers because there was no number that mattered other than your HP, and it was easy to determine how much damage you would take from an enemy.
Bushido Blade doesn't have number, but it does have damage effects. Your attack would have a certain color on hit based on how strong it was, and your limbs would stop working after getting hit so often. Plus, everything was "lethal", such as strong torso hits from the back or head shots were enough to kill you. "Damage" was learned quickly because everything worked in very visible ways.

 

[Frozen_Phoenix]

You should do the contrary, give as much information as possible.

 

[Titanhex]

Anyone telling you to give tons of information or that you cannot hide information from the player has a long ways to go on the path of design still.

All you need to do is be able to provide solid, consistent feedback to the player.
Shading an enemy from bright red to dark red based on health remaining can give just as much information to the player as a number floating above their head.

You want a player to have a sense of progression. It encourages behavior. If you want the player to keep doing something, show them that their behavior is leading them forward, and if you want the player to find the optimal strategy, make sure they can compare their attempts.

Never show them irrelevant or misleading information either. It divides focus on important information. You don't have everyone's health bar and their blood type and age floating around their avatar during a cutscene for a good reason.
So how is a cutscene different from any other aspect of the game?

It's all about clear feedback.
And tbh, numbers are the lazy man's route. They're a very technical way of showing a very abstract concept, such as pain. This makes them counter-productive to immersion.

 

[Frozen_Phoenix]

@Titanhex

I disagree with you:

You shouldn't give tons of information, but all relevant information should be given. Of course, how many miliseconds lasts an animation doesn't matter in a typical rpg game, but things like enemy health matters.

You can convey this information through several means, health bars, shading, numbers etc. But I want to know the health of the enemies during a battle.

Rewarding the player for repeating the same behavior is wrong, it makes the game stale and boring. If the same strategy works every time there is no point in playing the game as you have already figured it out. You should instead have the player come up with different strategies for every new significant encounter (e.g boss battles), thus keeping novelty until the end.

About showing numbers: Yes, they're the lazy way, but they're simple and effective. If you have no other way of presenting relevant information, it's better to just throw the numbers there than to not give them at all.