Simplistic Map Design vs Poor Map Design

[Ragpuppy87]

I have nearly recreated all the maps from a previous project that had been corrupted. My dungeon maps are all randomly generated. I have done touch ups, and addons. Placed decorations etc. If anyone is familiar with the "Pokémon Mystery Dungeon" games, my maps are very similar. I went for this approach because when creating a map from scratch, my skills are inadequate to say the least. I was going for a simplistic style akin to classic dungeon crawling games where you just navigated a maze and avoided enemies.

I will have random occurring events in these dungeons, monsters to fight, treasure to find, etc.
But the appearance of the dungeons themselves are relatively simple.

For the most part I am satisfied with the results. Especially since this will be my first project. Perhaps down the road I will create another game with more complex mapping, once I have learned a bit more.

But I also want to appeal to the player. Is this "simplistic approach" enough for a quality experience? I have read mixed opinions about using the dungeon generator. Some believe it is a cardinal sin that should be avoided at all costs. Some believe it is a great beginner's tool.

What's the difference between simplistic map design and poor map design?

 

[PhxFire]

Posting some pics would help, then we can see what you've made and comment on whats good/ bad and what areas could be improved upon

 

[Ragpuppy87]

These are a few maps from my project.

Spoiler

All my dungeon maps follow this same style with varying themes.

 

[PhxFire]

Alright so here's my opinion, if I were playing this game, I would get bored pretty quick with this map style. Personally, I tried the generator when I started MV and I didn't like it, it was far too simplistic and felt like it would get real old real quick. Doing your maps by hand can really improve the overall quality of the game... Also most people aren't good with mapping at first, you'll need to make a few maps, play them and after a little while your maps will start to improve.

Now I'm not saying that other people won't enjoy these maps or that you should go redo all your maps, if you're satisfied with the final product then by all means, you do you. That's just my opinion on the generator.

 

[Ragpuppy87]

Alright so here's my opinion, if I were playing this game, I would get bored pretty quick with this map style. Personally, I tried the generator when I started MV and I didn't like it, it was far too simplistic and felt like it would get real old real quick. Doing your maps by hand can really improve the overall quality of the game... Also most people aren't good with mapping at first, you'll need to make a few maps, play them and after a little while your maps will start to improve.

Now I'm not saying that other people won't enjoy these maps or that you should go redo all your maps, if you're satisfied with the final product then by all means, you do you. That's just my opinion on the generator.

Thanks for your input. I feel I'm a bit too far along to recreate all my maps at this point. I am hoping it will appeal to some people at least. But just in case everyone shares your opinion in playtesting, I may redo them at some point. Do you happen to know of any quality mapping tutorial videos?

 

[Shaz]

http://yanfly.moe/comics/

 

[PhxFire]

What I did when I was starting out was I did research... I looked at images of other peoples maps, checked out game postings and images they had listed and watched Let's plays of popular RPGMMV games... I got great ideas not only for mapping but also gameplay and content

 

[Kes]

Mapping is not a mechanic as such. Nor is Game Mechanics Design intended for feedback on an individual project.

As this is turning into a discussion about the use of generated maps, it just about fits into General Discussion.

In future, though, if you want feedback on some specific aspect your project, please consider starting a thread in 'Game Ideas and Prototypes'. Also if you want proper help with the quality of your maps, post one or two (that's enough in one post) in Game & Map Screenshots and ask for opinions/advice.

[move]General Discussion[/move]

 

[kairi_key]

I think simplistic is it gets the job enoughly done. Poor map design for me is maps that hinder the game or experience. But to actually be critical about this topic, I think maps can be both simplistic and poor at the same time.

For what your dungeon maps look, I may lack the context of your game, but from what I see, the map is kinda too long. The long map kinda need some eyecatching element or some kind of landmark. Also, all of them looks like a tight corridor. It will be good to have a central area of some kind to break up the length of the corridor players will need to do the walking. If your game has random encounter then it will get worse. Long corridor+random encounter is such a pain, lol. Also, it will greatly benefit the maps if you can shorten the corridor that connect each big area. Or in reverse, you can also make the room-like area bigger so the the tight corridor can be shorten up.

Another way to break the corridor is to implement some kind of a landscape view. Something to see on the sideway. Even if it will still be corridor, it's more bearable to be able to see different environment on the same place or even be able to make out what each area is in relative to another.

 

[Milennin]

Those maps don't look very interesting. Not much room for exploration and 1 width corridors are cramped. Dead ends don't do anything except make players backtrack. Rooms are just squares/rectangles.
Players don't navigate mazes because there are literally no tools to navigate with. If you want them to navigate, you need pieces of the map to stand out so they can recognise the points they've already been to. Without that, it's just aimlessly wandering around until you randomly hit the right corridor.
That last map is just a linear route from start to end. There is nothing to it that could make it interesting.

 

[TheoAllen]

Simplistic map design:
A map that does the job to represent something you want to represent without being too much. e.g, it's enough to make a few building and a little crowd to represent it's a town without making the town map too big for a sake of immersion. The fact that all building is facing down is one of the simplistic map design.

Poor map design:
A map that doesn't make sense. Either in gameplay-wise (get lost, not enough marking, too confusing, etc) or not represent something you want to represent. e.g, because the town map is too big, you have no idea where is the general goods shop, weapon/armory, and inn. You had to travel here and there. That's a lot of walking.

Disclaimer:
I don't read the entire thread

 

[Ragpuppy87]

Hmm... Not necessarily the feedback I was hoping for... For the most part I was proud of these maps. I knew they weren't perfect but I had hoped they were "good enough" considering the type of game I was aiming for. They are at the time of writing my best.
The game is meant to be an old school dungeon crawler in the most traditional sense. I even add that into the plot. It's a game about mazes within a larger maze. I've tried several maps by hand. They ended up looking pretty similar to the randomly generated ones if not a bit worse actually. I also believe a dungeon can't be judged completely from a few random screenshots. There are many different elements that make up a dungeon.
Then again there's also a phrase about being unable to polish a turd. If the core layout of the dungeons is bad then the rest of it could suffer as well.
I believe at this point I will continue with my current style as 95% of the game is already mapped. However I will also treat them as possible placeholders. Once I finish programming and release an early version of the game to get others thoughts, I will go back and slowly improve the maps as my talent hopefully improves.

While the feedback has been negative thus far I still appreciate it. Criticism is hard to take. But without I cannot get better.

 

[Frogboy]

This is your first game and it doesn't appear as if spending a lot of time upgrading your mapping skill is something you want to do just yet. Because of this, I'd go with your simplistic dungeon maps that you have. When you work on your next game, see what you can do about improving in this area. RPG Maker has a lot of things to learn to get good at making every aspect of your game polished and it's unrealistic to expect to be able to do everything on your first game. I wouldn't attempt to try.

 

[jwgz]

I don't think any of those maps look bad, but there is a case to be made for the potentiality of monotony. Looking at them, I can barely tell them apart, and if I were colorblind, I would think that they're just different floors of the same dungeon.

It's not the mapping itself that I have an issue with, mind you; the individual maps look serviceable if not good (especially for a dungeon crawler) but I feel that they would be less than the sum of their parts when experienced close to one another. Not sure if I'm making sense, but that's the best way I can put it.

And yes, I do believe there's a massive difference between poor and simplistic map design. Simplistic maps can be as amazing as complex maps can be a messy blob of useless window-dressing. It all depends on finding the right balance.

 

[xoferew]

I second (third?) the suggestions to make the corridors wider. Right now it has the claustrophobic feel of crawling through air ducts or something and I don't think that's what you were going for. A small change like that would make a big improvement I think. Also instead of just three decorations in each area, why not have a few more. Like, one room on the map could have a little rubble and one could have a lot, as if something collapsed in there long ago, and the other rooms might have no rubble. So each room has some personality. That would be easy to do.

 

[DJK1NG_Gaming]

Simple is fine as long as it make sense and feels alive.
But one thing I don't tolerate is inside buildings not matching how the building look outside.
A small house but huge interior that poor map design.

But how the map look all depends on how well you use the Tilesets.

 

[Ragpuppy87]

I second (third?) the suggestions to make the corridors wider. Right now it has the claustrophobic feel of crawling through air ducts or something and I don't think that's what you were going for. A small change like that would make a big improvement I think. Also instead of just three decorations in each area, why not have a few more. Like, one room on the map could have a little rubble and one could have a lot, as if something collapsed in there long ago, and the other rooms might have no rubble. So each room has some personality. That would be easy to do.

Regarding the narrow passages. The game takes place in an ancient magic pyramid. The entire time you never leave the interior of said pyramid.
The fire and ice themed maps are actually chambers inside the pyramid. I was going for an attempt to combine what a pyramid's labyrinthian interior may look like, narrow passages and square rooms, combined with the illusion of fire and ice themes etc. If that makes any sense...

As for the decorations, I'm kind of just using what I can find that would fit the theme of the dungeon. Sometimes that limits my options.

I'll try to mix things up a bit more though.

 

[Aesica]

The map generator feature is meant only as an extreme starting point. You should be ready to add additional passages and branches, make some pathways more winding, or even throw the whole thing out if you don't like it. When I look at these maps, they're really straightforward and only suitable for the game's first or second dungeon. One of my biggest criticisms of FF13 was the fact that basically every map was "walk forward to progress, no exploration required" every single time (at least as far as I got before I quit playing it). The first two maps only have one side-branch, and it's only a single room. The last one is literally just "walk forward" just like FF13.

 

[Ragpuppy87]

When I look at these maps, they're really straightforward and only suitable for the game's first or second dungeon.

They are actually. The first is from a mini dungeon meant to introduce the player to the style of dungeons they can expect in the game and the other two are from the first two dungeons.
Later dungeons become increasingly complex with more branching side paths etc. Also the maps shown are just one floor of multiple floor dungeons. Some floors will be straight forward such as the map from the ice themed dungeon, while other floors a bit more complicated.

 

[xoferew]

Oh, okay, a pyramid. Then narrow corridors and square rooms make sense. Making the corridors a bit wider though would give your player some feeling of choice, otherwise it could as well be a cut scene propelling the characters along. When I think of pyramids I also think of lots of hidden passageways and secret rooms. You could copy the map and transfer the player to an edited version after they have found a new chamber. Is it ancient such that damage like cracks and fallen stones might increase the maze aspect? Does the player start from the base of the pyramid and work up to the top, or how does that work? Are there rooms you can only access by dropping down through holes in the floor above? I can think of a lot of ways you can basically keep these maps you've worked so hard on, and turn up the interest. Don't get discouraged! ^_^