Skills, Many few or Action Points

[deilin]

One key to RPGs are the skills.They make you weak, they make you strong, they make you unique, and they can make a list a mile long.

I remember playing RPGs where you gain a skill every 5 levels or so based on your class, and others by weapon, and unlocks as you use it. Some mix both, while others have you buy skills with action points.

While having too few skills can make a battle boring as you play, I don't like having 40 skills, based on 10 skills with umpting upgrades to fish through. Ace (from what was reported) gives some skills with the weapon you equip.

What is your thoughs on skill gain/use?

 

[JumpingGinger]

I think I understand where you're coming from, skills require variety. Every skill needs its own unique personality to it, even though it is very weak, it may be the only skill that can poison.

I think every skill even the ones you get at level 1 need to have some special thing about them that make you want to use it throughout the entire game.

That's just my opinion though!

It's stupid when you play a game you get a skill and once you reach a certain level you never use it again, and it just stays in your skill list until the end of the game pointlessly sitting there.

So yeah, as I said, skills I believe require variety.

If you disagree that is okay though, it is important to have different opinions otherwise everyone's game would be entirely the same.

 

[Clockwork Angel]

Personally, I like to keep my options open. For instance, in my primary project, which I will most likely post up information for at a later date, "magic" is something a person can achieve in various ways and can learn through numerous different means. Some can simply read a book, others use an enchanted weapon, few have an innate ability and learn as they grow. I have no problem with having only one method of aqquiring skills in a game and indeed, it is probably not best to overload the player with too many different methods of achieving the same result. Levelling up and automatically learning new skills is a nice, simple method, but at the same time, it offers no freedom. You will learn this when we tell you to learn it, basically. Whereas equipping items that grant abilities, or buying skills from a shop etc... give the player the freedom to choose what they want to learn and how they want to play.

So I would generally prefer that over a levelling-up based skill system. But that's just me. n.n

 

[Psyker]

I'm kind of tinkering with the idea of skills gaining levels (i.e. Lvl 1 skill = character lvl 1-10, Lvl 2 = character lvl 11-20) in which characters have to get a weapon that has the corresponding skill level to learn beyond that level. (i.e. Short Short - Wind Slash Lvl 1, Long Sword - Wind Slash Lvl 2).

And each skill will have an experience meter. While using the weapon they have access to that level skill until the character fills the experience bar for the skill level then they can use it will any weapon.

 

[JumpingGinger]

Personally, I like to keep my options open. For instance, in my primary project, which I will most likely post up information for at a later date, "magic" is something a person can achieve in various ways and can learn through numerous different means. Some can simply read a book, others use an enchanted weapon, few have an innate ability and learn as they grow. I have no problem with having only one method of aqquiring skills in a game and indeed, it is probably not best to overload the player with too many different methods of achieving the same result. Levelling up and automatically learning new skills is a nice, simple method, but at the same time, it offers no freedom. You will learn this when we tell you to learn it, basically. Whereas equipping items that grant abilities, or buying skills from a shop etc... give the player the freedom to choose what they want to learn and how they want to play.

So I would generally prefer that over a levelling-up based skill system. But that's just me. n.n

If you ever played Final Fantasy X, I think that was probably the best game possible for leveling. It was complex, but flexible at the same time. Your warrior characters could take the path of a mage if they desired, of course that leading you to a poorly designed party, but at least the flexibility was there.

It gave the game so much more customization, for example you could tell your friends, Tidus was more about hard hitting, then another friend would say Tidus was all about his Hastega etc.

If anyone can copy the style they made for a leveling system on one of their games I'll almost promise I'll love that aspect of it.

 

[Clockwork Angel]

I have indeed played it and I was a fan of the Sphere Grid. It let me do what I wanted and go where I wanted, without restricting a character to a certain area. Quite fantastic~

 

[deilin]

I still play Final Fantasy tactics for PS1. I pretty much buy everything for the unlocks of other classes, but honestly only used a third of them in the class at most. I have an interesting method I thought of working on making an AP system. Limited level up, buy most skills, with some learned by finding artifacts or earned through quests. While you level to 4 levels, you learn another form of skill specific for your class.

 

[Reynard Frost]

I'm a fan of having all of my skills available to me and they level up as I go. I like the access to the weaker skills so I can use them and conserve MP against weaker enemies. Although for me, I'm making it so only certain characters have certain types of skills, so you'll have to select party members to fit the situation.

 

[deilin]

I'm a fan of having all of my skills available to me and they level up as I go. I like the access to the weaker skills so I can use them and conserve MP against weaker enemies. Although for me, I'm making it so only certain characters have certain types of skills, so you'll have to select party members to fit the situation.

Valid point about weaker skill. In my games, though, you start battles with 0 MP and gain one at the end of every turn.End of battle, all the MP goes bye-bye again. But like Psyker pointed out as well, as your weapon goes up in power, so can the skills available.

 

[Lunarea]

I've always found that it's a lot easier to approach fights when you have fewer skills to worry about. It also really annoys me when you learn a skill, use it for 3 levels and then never use it again.

In my current project, you start with almost all of your skills from level 1. The only exceptions are an elemental magic skill (which is learned later on, through plot-related events) and the "basic" skill (replaces attack in damage-dealing or healing in healers) that changes based on your equipment. All skills cost a percentage of mana/health/rage and the damage/healing they deal is usually percentage-based or multiplied by the level. It may not be as exciting as getting a new spell every level, but it makes it easier to build effective strategies.

 

[Chaos17]

In Lunar and Tales of phantasia, you've to level up your skills to unlock new skills. That system is pretty closse to Final fantasy tactic but instead of leveling a class you level your skills. I guess, I prefer to level a class because you know what you want while leveling a random skill may not unlock a new spell.

 

[WizzyT]

For the moment my skill system is the simple hit x level and gain it

However I do intend on implementing a system that again revolves around time periods, with certain skills being more effective during specific time periods.

Also certain skills/traits/bonuses can only be learned within certain time periods.

 

[Warpmind]

So, somehow set up spells so that when certain conditions apply, the effect is enhanced? Conditional Traits, perhaps? Hm, must look closer at how Traits can be set up... *Cogitate*

 

[Chaos17]

Nerfing the player isn't a good idea, you're asking him to wait to use a skill, maybe the idea is nice but will you like it yourself if you were the player ? You will really need to think of a good balance then.

 

[Warpmind]

@Chaos17

Who's nerfing the player? Were you addressing WizzyT or me with that? Because I can't see anything qualifying as "nerfing" the player in any of the posts here. :huh:

 

[WizzyT]

Exactly, eventually I intend for time periods to start merging and essentially cause mixed time enemies to appear (So a wider variety of skills will be required).

It however still in development so if we feel the system doesn't quite work or infuriates users we will drop it or simplify it.

@Chaos17 it wouldn't be nerfing the player, it would be a method of allowing skills to be continuously used depending on location. I see it more as a modification of the generic elements system - Fire > Ice > Earth > Air > Water > Fire (Example)

 

[Hesufo]

My game features a changable Class system, and the skill learning process much like FFT: through JP gained from battles.

I like to keep customization open, so most abilities are available from the start and the player can pick right away from a large variety of skills for each class. There are few classes available at start, and their roles start out very basic, too. This way the player can get accustomed to the style of each class, and when more are available, combine them to their liking efficiently.

The hardest part of this system is being able to balance out all skills, make them worthwhile to learn and make them all useful at least under certain conditions, while also incentivizing the player to try out combinations on their own.

 

[Emmych]

Tough to say. I'm not really an expert in skill related things! XD

That said, I do have my preferences. I like it when level one skills are still useful; Final Fantasy is terrible about this. Once you have Fira, you're never gonna use Fire again. Arc Rise Fantasia, however, is fabulous about this! You have four levels of magic to use, and I was still dipping into my level one magic, even at the end of the game.

Also, I hate useless skills. If you're gonna give me an attack that blinds the enemy, make it actually blind the friggin' enemy. I don't wanna hafta try fifty times to get the state to stick!

I like gaining skills over time, rather than having a bunch up front. It makes for more... I dunno, easily learned game play? When you have less to experiment with, it takes less time to figure out the most effective strategy. And, if learning the game happens gradually, the game designer has, I think, a greater opportunity to build on the player's pre-existing knowledge of the game when introducing new concepts. Think of temples in Zelda, the Golden Sun series, or any Metroidvania style games -- as you gain more skills/tools/upgrades, puzzles and exploration gradually become more complex as they build on the basics established at the beginning of the game.

By the end of the game, yeah, I'm in the same camp as those saying they don't wanna have fifty billion skills per character. A smaller number of useful but varied skills is preferable for me. >w<d

As far as skill learning goes, I am pretty agnostic about it. Just don't do something stupidly annoying with it, and I'll be okay.

@JumpingGinger: Actually, the sphere grid kind of sucked and was stupidly linear unless you wanted to grind your little tush off. The license board in FFXII was waaaaay better about actually having open customization; if you wanna make Basch a white mage, you can start him on that path the second you get him. If you want Tidus to be a white mage, well... you're gonna have to wait until you've ground out enough sphere levels and key spheres to get him over there.

</not an invitation to argue about if the sphere grid or license board is better; just offering an alternative opinion>

 

[WizzyT]

You could always opt for Upgrade skills at trainers when you hit certain levels.

Example

Hero Learns Strike at level 1

Level 10 - Strike can be upgraded to Blade Strike at a trainer thus replacing/Upgrading the skill

Sometimes this may not be suitable as you may wish to have lower levels off certain skills (Heals for example), Ranked skills like that are always worth keeping or expanding upon with different skills.

Level 1 - Hero 2 learns Band Aid - Heals a small amount of HP to a single ally

Level 10 - Hero 2 can learn First Aid at a trainer - Heals a medium amount of HP to a singly ally

Level 20 - Hero 2 can Learn Nurse at a trainer - Heals a Medium amount of HP to all allies.

 

[BulletPlus]

i think learning magic on level up is senseless. imagine i am a mage. i defeat a monster level up and suddenly i have learned and memorized to perfection a skill which i have neither heard about nor seen during gameplay. WTH? i prefer leaning magic through books and by tutors. weapon skills that are learnt on level up are more practical. but this is just my opinion. you are the creator and the master of your game. you must do what you want and not what others want. we can only suggest but it is you that must create.