Skinner box

[jsomr]

http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

http://www.nickyee.com/eqt/skinner.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box

RPG elements now pervade first person shooters, puzzle games, everything. How do you feel about MMO's as they are the probably the best example of a digital skinner box?

This concept is the reason I've all but given up on gaming. It was enough to make me drop World of Warcraft immediately. It's like gamers are lab rats being manipulated by gaming corporations. I still work on my VXA project but I've been trying to strengthen the plot and characters as opposed to adding more and more skinner box elements (levels, gold, gear, achievements, etc.).

Opinions?

 

[Sausage_Boi]

Did you just finish watching South Park? I did, lol, and the one I just watched was poking at Freemium games and Skinner boxes....

I am with you. I don't play a lot of mobile or MMO's for these reasons. But I do like some older games and a few of the newer ones, as long as I can play offline. I have a real bad habit of dropping hobbies if I think about them too much, I.E. "What am I really getting out of this repetitive action, that I keep repeating over and over with no real variation?" I quite playing 99% of video games for a long time because of that. I have slowly been getting more and more into games, but they've gotta be unique. Really unique. I have played thousands of video games since I was a child.

 

[jsomr]

Did you just finish watching South Park? I did, lol, and the one I just watched was poking at Freemium games and Skinner boxes....

I am with you. I don't play a lot of mobile or MMO's for these reasons. But I do like some older games and a few of the newer ones, as long as I can play offline. I have a real bad habit of dropping hobbies if I think about them too much, I.E. "What am I really getting out of this repetitive action, that I keep repeating over and over with no real variation?" I quite playing 99% of video games for a long time because of that. I have slowly been getting more and more into games, but they've gotta be unique. Really unique. I have played thousands of video games since I was a child.

I basically feel the same way. Played WoW for so long that I continued playing long after the enjoyment had left.

Tomb Raider and Skyrim are the only two rpg's of recent memory that I've enjoyed. TR was a breath of fresh air.

 

[Wavelength]

Skinner Box elements are fine by me as long as they do actually make me feel rewarded or engaged.  A game (or movie or anime or book or painting) is supposed to manipulate you, and make you feel things that you wouldn't feel if you weren't playing the game.  That's its entire value!  If you think that makes you a lab rat to a giant soulless corporation, then I believe you've missed the point.

The problem probably comes when the Skinner Box elements ("Skinners") are there to cover up an activity that isn't fun by itself (which still probably results in several hours of fun, if the Skinners are done well enough), or when the the Skinners are there in order to force you to experience the game in a less fun way (which can happen because of the company's greed, or because of simple bad design where there's no extra money to be made).

I feel Grand Chase is a great example of the latter - the core gameplay is pretty fun by itself and trying all kinds of new characters, skills, and strategies is incredibly satisfying, but for some reason they made the decision that you should have to replay the same levels dozens or hundreds of times in order to complete character/class-unlock missions or get powerful enough to move onto the more interesting stages; the game is okay rather than great as a result.  The home versions of DDR (from Extreme 2 forward) are also great examples of Skinner Failures, where the effort required to unlock content creates more frustration than fun.

On the other hand, look to most of Pogo's games, or Dark Cloud's weapon-upgrade system, or even Hearthstone (where they've mastered the art of turning players into Pavlov's Dog), as examples where the Skinners add positive value to the experience.  Or look to Guild Wars 1 as a great example of a game that basically lets you have it both ways.

 

[jsomr]

Skinner Box elements are fine by me as long as they do actually make me feel rewarded or engaged.  A game (or movie or anime or book or painting) is supposed to manipulate you, and make you feel things that you wouldn't feel if you weren't playing the game.  That's its entire value!  If you think that makes you a lab rat to a giant soulless corporation, then I believe you've missed the point.

The problem probably comes when the Skinner Box elements ("Skinners") are there to cover up an activity that isn't fun by itself (which still probably results in several hours of fun, if the Skinners are done well enough), or when the the Skinners are there in order to force you to experience the game in a less fun way (which can happen because of the company's greed, or because of simple bad design where there's no extra money to be made).

I feel Grand Chase is a great example of the latter - the core gameplay is pretty fun by itself and trying all kinds of new characters, skills, and strategies is incredibly satisfying, but for some reason they made the decision that you should have to replay the same levels dozens or hundreds of times in order to complete character/class-unlock missions or get powerful enough to move onto the more interesting stages; the game is okay rather than great as a result.  The home versions of DDR (from Extreme 2 forward) are also great examples of Skinner Failures, where the effort required to unlock content creates more frustration than fun.

On the other hand, look to most of Pogo's games, or Dark Cloud's weapon-upgrade system, or even Hearthstone (where they've mastered the art of turning players into Pavlov's Dog), as examples where the Skinners add positive value to the experience.  Or look to Guild Wars 1 as a great example of a game that basically lets you have it both ways.

I would accuse a lot of modern hobbies of not doing enough. Traditional books, even novels, endeavored to teach you something. Video games at large do not do this at all and many modern books, movies, and tv shows fail to as well. Maybe it's my fault for believing that if you're going to spend your precious time doing something it should be benefiting you in some way. Maybe the major benefit of playing video games is to alleviate stress or work as a team with other people if the game is social. But there are many ways to alleviate stress or work toward a common goal with others that I believe are better uses of time. Working out has a plethora of benefits and can be done with others. Building something is a great way to learn a trade and.or make money. Most video games (save DDR and a few others) require zero physical exertion. I've met many gamers who are socially crippled, depressed, and horribly out of shape because their primary hobby is playing a game. RPG's are an exaggerated form of this.

If you play an FPS you play simply because it's fun and/or competitive. Add a number of RPG elements and suddenly everyone must become a 10th prestige General. Guns are no longer available from the start but are now acquired through assignments or rank. Popular guns are purposely unlocked at the higher ranks because people will play long enough to unlock them. Whereas you would typically play an FPS for an hour or two online, you are now playing for ten so you can get that camo for your M16.

That's why the skinner box idea bothered me enough to make me quit WoW. I realized that I was playing long after the enjoyment had run out because I had 10k achievement points and I wanted 11k. I had over one hundred mounts but I wanted one hundred fifty so I could get an achievement mount. I talked to guildies more than I talked to real people.

World of Warcraft doesn't even have a compelling storyline or memorable characters. I almost never saw people discussing the story. I did however often see people talking about mounts or achievements or raid titles or gear.

 

[Sausage_Boi]

#1 I've met many gamers who are socially crippled, depressed, and horribly out of shape because their primary hobby is playing a game.

#2 That's why the skinner box idea bothered me enough to make me quit WoW. I realized that I was playing long after the enjoyment had run out because I had 10k achievement points and I wanted 11k. I had over one hundred mounts but I wanted one hundred fifty so I could get an achievement mount. I talked to guildies more than I talked to real people.

#2a World of Warcraft doesn't even have a compelling storyline or memorable characters. I almost never saw people discussing the story. I did however often see people talking about mounts or achievements or raid titles or gear.

#1: You can't assume that because they play video games they are socially crippled. I personally believe it's the other way around for MOST people who fit that bill. I deal with Asperger's and when I was a kid, social situations were always kind of difficult for me. I was never overweight, but when I discovered video games, they became "my thing". I ate, slept and breathed the damn things. And this was at a time when video games were uncool. It wasn't until High School that a lot of my school mates were getting into video games. Even today I know lots of people who's primary hobby is videogames, and most of them function perfectly well. Besides, to quote Jiddu Krishnamurti "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

#2: I had always felt like a weirdo because I have never been a perfectionist for collecting in video games. I play them mostly for story, and entertainment. If the story ends, I am HIGHLY unlikely to keep playing the game for any kind of reward. I am kind of a materialist when it comes to things like that. I need a tangible reward to want to continue, otherwise I can better fill my time elsewhere.

#2a: I have never seen the appeal of MMO's for that reason. However, to each their own. 

I am with you though, I feel stories should teach or help broaden ones world view. What I want to do with my games is couch a message in them. I want to entertain, but I don't want to bludgeon the player with my philosophy at the same time.