So there's my issues with RM...

vico

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...after the unfolding of this topic, i began to hesitate to use RPG Maker with my "original" (not fangames from established RPG franchises) projects due to copyright (and artistic freedom) issues. So @Andar suggested me to create this topic to discuss better and keep the original one in the current discussion.

Thats following:

Let's say i began to make a game about mythology. In this case i'm using characters based from that (not so original, but in theory in public domain), which characters sprites come from the Character Generator [more precisely created using MV and 3rd parts (with the license "you can use this for free and commercial use ONLY with a original copy of RPG Maker") with @Schlangan 's Extended Generator].

Let's say for some happiness and rare chance the game gets well received and people begin to ask for a port for whatever the engine (let's say, Love2D or other) or i begin to plan to make a sequel using other engine. My issue is: if i hire an artist to redone the sprite in other artistic style (Using things like hairstyle, clothes, character physical traits) should this be legal? Should i lose the rights of my characters or the right to remake the game later (or remake the story for literature)?

Even if i magically become good in drawing and make concepts of the characters based off the sprites i'm using (made with MV generator), thats doesnt mean anything? The visual of the characters should forever be from Degica?

And just for information, i dont have intent (for now) to lucrate with the game (aka commercial use), just excessive zeal and fear to get a one-in-million chance to make something good and cant touch in that later (and lose altoghether) due to Degica retaining copyright to my characters due to use of RTP parts.
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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(facepalm)

First, no Degica doesn't retain rights to your characters, they retain the rights to the program you used & the assets you used to create those characters. Your EULA, grants you permission to use those assets to produce games; it does not grant Degica ownership rights over any IPs you create with those assets or the engine. They retain the rights to their assets & engine.

Second, the very idea of rewriting the entire game into a new engine, so that potential customers can use that engine instead is beyond absurd. If any person ever suggested to me that I should invest the time to rebuild a working game I had made, in another engine, for their personal convenience, I would verbally bludgeon them until they committed ritual suicide as atonement.

Third, if you were at a later date to make additional entries into the IP you create, using a different engine, that isn't an issue, unless you use RPG Maker assets or assets created specifically for RPG Maker to do so. I honestly don't understand how you can read the user agreement, & come to the conclusion that Degica owns the rights to any IP you create.

Forth, since you haven't even created the first entry into the IP, the expression "cart before the horse" seems rather apt.
 

Leon Kennedy

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If Degica's EULA was so strict I don't think many would use RPGM. I don't understand your intense hatred here. Also the part of implying all games here on forums are "fan games from established RPG franchises", and not "original" really wasn't needed in your very first sentence.
 

Archeia

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I'm having a hard time understanding the logical struggle here but lemme rephrase one of my post.
  • Use default or edited RPGMaker assets in another engine = BAD.
  • Using the same sprite style that it's obvious it's RPG Maker (e.g. character sprites) in another engine = BAD.
  • Having your ""Characters"" based on our assets redrawn in a new style entirely that you can't really pinpoint it back to rpg maker and then using another engine = we do not care, that's your own stuff. This only becomes a problem if you traced over an artwork and then just changed some things here and there. (There are people who have done that)
 

fimamati

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"tough crowd, tough crowd"
After reading the comments to the op's post, I had to reread it. The reason I am posting this is because this is one of the main reasons I don't like posting in forums. we are to quick at becoming offended to the point of disaster. The poster in my opinion is giving details about his project. I didn't see where he implied that "all games here on forums are 'fan games from established RPG franchises'" unless I add to it personally. The poster is also seeking answers to legit questions. I didn't read anything that portrayed hate. Also not everyone actually read the full EULA so we shouldn't conclude they aren't so strict because others use RPGM. The poster is doing the right thing by researching. I don't usually post to these types of comments but I don't want people to be afraid to post these types of detailed questions. hopefully I didn't offend anyone because that was not my goal.
 

Sharm

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@fimamati A lot of the response is based more on the comments in the other thread that started this one. That's why there's such a strong bias on how this one comment is being read. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that this isn't coming from out of nowhere.
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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"tough crowd, tough crowd"
After reading the comments to the op's post, I had to reread it. The reason I am posting this is because this is one of the main reasons I don't like posting in forums. we are to quick at becoming offended to the point of disaster. The poster in my opinion is giving details about his project. I didn't see where he implied that "all games here on forums are 'fan games from established RPG franchises'" unless I add to it personally. The poster is also seeking answers to legit questions. I didn't read anything that portrayed hate. Also not everyone actually read the full EULA so we shouldn't conclude they aren't so strict because others use RPGM. The poster is doing the right thing by researching. I don't usually post to these types of comments but I don't want people to be afraid to post these types of detailed questions. hopefully I didn't offend anyone because that was not my goal.
"tough crowd"?

You've obviously never seen me in action when I've been roused enough to actually start being aggressive.
 

Andar

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@vico
I think some of your misconceptions come from a bad understanding of what copyright is. Copyright is not a singular entity.

If you make a character in the character generator, then you and Kadokawa have a shared copyright on the final sprite.
The resulting design is your part of that copyright, and only your part. Kadokawa will still hold the copyright on the parts however, and that copyright is not transferred to you.

so you can't use the sprite itself in any other game engine because you do not have the licence to use those parts elsewhere. But since the design is your own, you're free to ask another artist to make a new picture with the generated sprite as a reference for the design.

As long as that other artist doesn't trace or copy the parts that compose the reference (which are still copyright by kodakawa and the reason for archeias description of the limits above), that new artwork will again have a shared copyright. The design will again be your copyright, while the specific work itself will be the artists copyright.
But as part of your contract discussions you can ask that other artist to give you licence to use that artwork where you want in return for whatever compensation you offer.

That is the reason why a lot of artists give different prices or terms of use for commercial or non-commercial works, or for example reserve the rights to sell prints to themselves or whatever.
But you don't have such discussions with Kadokawa (who hold the copyright for the RMs and their artwork), which means you're bound by the EULA unless you can get them to agree to an exception (which is possible and what Lunarea offered above, it's just unlikely unless you can offer something in return or your idea has limited value to a business company)
 

fimamati

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Research would include reading the full EULA.
lol research requires more than just reading the full EULA. You need to understand it. That's why businesses hire specialized lawyers. Everything isn't cut and dry all the times. Sometimes there are holes and cracks that can and will destroy. So it is wise to ask question if you don't understand something. some lawyers will talk to you for free. I remember a while back calling a company about using their assets. I was told it was fine which I read in the EULA but i also read something That made me question. so I called and got the run around. The original person got frustrated with me because they didn't understand why I wasn't excepting the "yeah it's fine" but couldn't explain what the one little paragraph in the EULA meant. A few calls later they got someone from their legal team to call me. Sure enough it was the music I had to worry about but the original person I talked to before their legal dept said It was fine to use the assets and probably , from their tone, wanted to bop me upside the head. Because I am aware that some software licence from other places as well I kept asking questions until I got the correct answer. Saved me the grief.
@fimamati A lot of the response is based more on the comments in the other thread that started this one. That's why there's such a strong bias on how this one comment is being read. Not saying it's right or wrong, just that this isn't coming from out of nowhere.
Hi Sharm. I understand. It's just the poster said it wasn't needed in his first sentence. So it sound to me that they were referring to this post. And this post seem polite and legit. I didn't want to take over their thread or anything, I was just confused on why the responses seemed... weell anyway. who am I. lol Sorry for interrupting. You all enjoy the rest of your day.:LZYpraise:
 
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vico

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"tough crowd, tough crowd"
After reading the comments to the op's post, I had to reread it. The reason I am posting this is because this is one of the main reasons I don't like posting in forums. we are to quick at becoming offended to the point of disaster. The poster in my opinion is giving details about his project. I didn't see where he implied that "all games here on forums are 'fan games from established RPG franchises'" unless I add to it personally. The poster is also seeking answers to legit questions. I didn't read anything that portrayed hate. Also not everyone actually read the full EULA so we shouldn't conclude they aren't so strict because others use RPGM. The poster is doing the right thing by researching. I don't usually post to these types of comments but I don't want people to be afraid to post these types of detailed questions. hopefully I didn't offend anyone because that was not my goal.
Thanks mate, i concede the post could have sounded harsh for some guys (i'm not good in English), but i dont understand why so much hate (like the guy who said "PART OF RESSEARCH IS READING EULA". Someone who has read ALL THE TOS of all games and software purchased, throw the first stone).
I just want to clarify to myself if RPG Maker would be a good way to start kicking my ideas, but since i got this reception from Degica staff (except Andar who was straight to the point at the answer), perharps the better way should be writing-only. Not gonna use it anymore if the community has acted so toxic. Shame.
 
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Andar

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but i dont understand why so much hate (like the guy who said "PART OF RESSEARCH IS READING EULA". Someone who has read ALL THE TOS of all games and software purchased, throw the first stone).
That is not hate or toxic, but to protect you (the user) from the consequences if you go commercial. And for the same reason I can guarantee you that people do read the TOS of the resources (and we even require people who give their resources for free in this forum to place a ToS on them).

The problem here is that you are legally required to read and obey those terms, and in case of a commercial use can even be sued if you neglegt them.
Big companies have lawyers for that, but the regular indie company or single developers can't afford to pay for them. But that does not mean that they're protected from being sued if they break them.

So we try to make sure that anyone here on the forum understands how important that is.
And that is not hate to drive you away, but comes from the wish to project you from mistakes that could get you into a lot of trouble if you keep ignorance of them.

And if you really checked the Internet, especially comparing this forum to the often really toxic steam forums, then you should see that this forum is one of the nicest around.
 

Leon Kennedy

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...after the unfolding of this topic, i began to hesitate to use RPG Maker with my "original" (not fangames from established RPG franchises) .
@fimamati This was the sentence he implied so. Fan games had never been on the subject this is about using assets on different engines.

Either way the main points have already been made by Archeia and Lunarea there is no point of still discussing this.
 

Archeia

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Thanks mate, i concede the post could have sounded harsh for some guys (i'm not good in English), but i dont understand why so much hate (like the guy who said "PART OF RESSEARCH IS READING EULA". Someone who has read ALL THE TOS of all games and software purchased, throw the first stone).
I just want to clarify to myself if RPG Maker would be a good way to start kicking my ideas, but since i got this reception from Degica staff (except Andar who was straight to the point at the answer), perharps the better way should be writing-only. Not gonna use it anymore if the community has acted so toxic. Shame.
When you are being involved in a potential commercial product/endeavour it is your responsibility as a game developer and studio/future company/freelance what have you to read the EULA of the products you are using in order to avoid lawsuit. Your post here does not excuse you of any responsibility. I already summarized this in a previous topic, summarized it here, and someone just had to put in "research" and I responded to that. If you think that is toxic then what about more in a commercial setting where professionals can be quite cut throat over feedback? You are being oversensitive. This is a serious issue and your claims in your original post is no joke or something that can be ignored.
 

XIIIthHarbinger

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Thanks mate, i concede the post could have sounded harsh for some guys (i'm not good in English), but i dont understand why so much hate (like the guy who said "PART OF RESSEARCH IS READING EULA". Someone who has read ALL THE TOS of all games and software purchased, throw the first stone).
Pretty much anyone here worth their salt has read the EULAs & the user agreements on anything they have put in their project, because any indie dev worthy of the name, understands just how important compliance with those legal agreements are from both a fiscal & reputation standpoint. Because anyone worth mentioning in this community, takes a rather dim view of anyone who doesn't abide by those agreements.

Passive aggressive whinging about having to meet a standard you are legally required to uphold as a condition of using something, to a community of people who actively do so, & remove those who don't, really is not a good play for you.

I just want to clarify to myself if RPG Maker would be a good way to start kicking my ideas, but since i got this reception from Degica staff (except Andar who was straight to the point at the answer), perharps the better way should be writing-only. Not gonna use it anymore if the community has acted so toxic. Shame.
No one here has even begun to approach toxic, or mean, or anything else to you. If anyone here bites, it would be me, & I haven't even shown any teeth, yet. Everyone else, including Archeia, has honestly been far more courteous to you, than what you're going to receive in most other communities or sites.

So you might want to consider the possibility that the problem isn't the community here, but rather your perceptions of both your own obligations, as well as the expectations of this community that you are bringing to the table.
 

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