Stance on emulation?

[Jarrad]

What do you guys think about emulation? I for one am a huge proponent of emulation for a few reasons;

1) Backups of physical games in case they are damaged (Also the only way I condone torrents)

2) Playing international versions of games you own. The prime example is Final Fantasy XII IZJS, which overhauls a lot of the game and was unavailable in North America

3) Saving you from buying absurdly expensive games. I love Chrono Trigger and Earthbound, but I'm not buying a Wii U or a $100 SNES cart to play them, the devs don't make money from them anymore anyway the profits are completely private/ go straight to Nintendo

4) Portability. My PSP and GCW cover all consoles from NES to PS1, so I can bring the games with me (provided I own them physically, or the devs no longer profit from them)

What are your guys' thoughts?

 

[Ms Littlefish]

A lot of games I loved were out of print and unattainable but now that Nintendo and Sony have taken a lot of care into releasing their old games digitally (or remaking them) I find emulation more and more unnecessary as a means to play old games. It's pretty much akin to my feelings on piracy. I want to pay for what I want. Period.

 

[bgillisp]

From what I recall, the official legal stance on emulation is this:

Owning the emulator is not illegal (else I think Sony would be in trouble, because didn't they initially emulate the PS2 on the first gen PS3?).

However, owing the file for a game you do *not* legally own is illegal.

At least, that is the way it was explained to be back in 2000-2001. Maybe rules have changed now?

 

[Ms Littlefish]

I'm not sure of the exact laws regarding it but I'm going to guess that would be fairly correct. If you don't own a physical copy of the game that you cannot download a ROM of it. But, I'm not certain of it and it's something I've never been comfortable toying with either way.

 

[AriesFireTiger]

I'm fine with it for fairly old games, they've made their money. They have re-released these games for different systems, not the original systems. You don't even own the game, you own the license to some 1s and 0s. They are asking too much for something that isn't tangible (ie, no resale/barter value). If they wanted to reprint the games for the original systems, I'd be singing a different tune, but no one is going to do so. I work hard for my money, all they did was put some emulators on their gaming systems and put another farmer under the cow...

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Personal opinion:

If a game is only attainable through collectors, then I'm OK with it.

That basically means PSX or older titles that are also not on PSN/Virtual Console/ported to other consoles. Stuff on those markets still makes money for the dev/publisher.

At the point where going through collector channels is your only option, you aren't supporting the devs or publishers, so I don't have a moral issue with it. Still not legal, but its a personal opinion.

 

[Ekkoberry]

If it's impossible to buy anywhere/from anyone, I'm inclined to emulate it.  Basically for any super old game.

But to me it feels pretty clunky playing on the PC so usually I wouldn't bother. It's a shame- I feel in emulation, something gets lost. Not the same feel as playing on the original console, y'know?

 

[AriesFireTiger]

Personal opinion:

If a game is only attainable through collectors, then I'm OK with it.

That basically means PSX or older titles that are also not on PSN/Virtual Console/ported to other consoles. Stuff on those markets still makes money for the dev/publisher.

At the point where going through collector channels is your only option, you aren't supporting the devs or publishers, so I don't have a moral issue with it. Still not legal, but its a personal opinion.

Even through collectors, finding a game can be quite hard. 

I worked at a game store for 2 years and we dealt console games....everything new and all the way back to beginning (the owner even had a display case with his personal collection of old and rare consoles)....some games I NEVER saw come through, ever, in TWO YEARS, working full time. Some games we had a huge waiting list for, and they were screwed if an employee wanted to add it to their personal collection This was from September 2006 to September 2008. 

 

[Andar]

It depends a lot on the EULA/TOS of the original game. In some cases using an emulator is OK as long as you own the original game legally, in other cases it is not. Some games specifically deny the right to transfer the game even to other computers, much less to emulators for different systems.


Because of that the Sony example above is very bad - Sony holds all licences for all PS-Versions and can therefore freely decide to write a legal emulator for them. Someone else writing an emulator for any PlayStation would be illegal unless they pay Sony for the licence.


Another example would be the RM RTP - those graphics are only licenced for the RM engines, writing an emulator for them would void the licence and make the use of the RTP illegal, while simply writing a wrapper that emulates a windows for the original RM engine to run under may be legal depending on how that was done.


That said, as a personal opinion I'm also OK if there is no other way to get a legally owned game to run (I have an old Pentium II in storage that I used for old games until the DOSbox became usable for example). But downloading pirated software for the emulators is not legal.

 

[Seacliff]

Personally, if it's not GBA or older (especially if it's not on the eShop or PSN) then I'm against it.

A game's copyright lasts 75 years after all, meaning there is no legal way of downloading roms. But if a company isn't profiting from a game anymore, then there's no point in protecting it anymore. That's just me. I mostly despise emulation of modern games. I doubt any of our commercial developers on this site would want anyone to pirate there games, even if they become there fan through it.

If it's impossible to buy anywhere/from anyone, I'm inclined to emulate it.  Basically for any super old game.

But to me it feels pretty clunky playing on the PC so usually I wouldn't bother. It's a shame- I feel in emulation, something gets lost. Not the same feel as playing on the original console, y'know?

Agreed, that's what got me into collecting consoles, there's nothing like playing a game with the controller it's designed for while playing it on the console it's programed for.

 

[bgillisp]

A game's copyright lasts 75 years after all, meaning there is no legal way of downloading roms. But if a company isn't profiting from a game anymore, then there's no point in protecting it anymore. That's just me. I mostly despise emulation of modern games. I doubt any of our commercial developers on this site would won't anyone to pirate there games, even if they become there fan through it.

When I was studying this in the 90's it was 17 years. Any source for the 75 years?

 

[Seacliff]

When I was studying this in the 90's it was 17 years. Any source for the 75 years?

Hmm... I know I saw it somewhere but can't seem to find it, maybe I am wrong? I don't mind being corrected though, since that's really not the point. Copyrights can still be renewed either way.

 

[bgillisp]

Hmm... I know I saw it somewhere but can't seem to find it, maybe I am wrong? I don't mind being corrected though, since that's really not the point. Copyrights can still be renewed either way.

Tis true, and since the time I looked it up we were in the SNES era I'm sure the law has changed some too.

 

[whitesphere]

Personally, I think emulators are fantastic for games that are no longer available.  I've also seen for example a legal Atari 2600 emulator which has 100 games for $10, so that's a reasonable price (10 cents each) if you want to play those classic games.  Or the entire Activision 2600 game collection for $7.

I agree the experience can't compare to, say, the original system hooked up to a classic TV, the excitement we felt as kids playing these games.  But there are even Bluetooth controllers if you have an Android or iOS phone or tablet, which should work well with the emulators to give a good experience.

I just find them technologically amazing as well --- given for example the Atari 2600 emulators literally have to emulate a TV scan line by scan line in realtime --- because that's how the 2600 draws ALL of its games.

 

[Espon]

I have no issues with it.  Sometimes the only way you can play certain games as they're no longer available or were not released in your region.  There's so many SNES jRPGs that were never released outside of Japan such as Seiken Densetsu 3, Live-A-Live, and Final Fantasy 5 (before it was ported to PS1) that I never would of been able to play without emulation.  I typically use a PS2 controller that I have an adapter to for playing emulated games.

To clear up a misconception: Depending on the company, even if you own a physical copy of the game, it is still illegal to download a ROM of it as you're not allowed to transfer a game from one media to another.  I'm pretty sure Nintendo does not allow you to make backups of their games, were as Sony is more lenient on that.  For those that rip and then distribute the ROMs on websites, that's definitely illegal.

 

[bgillisp]

To clear up a misconception: Depending on the company, even if you own a physical copy of the game, it is still illegal to download a ROM of it as you're not allowed to transfer a game from one media to another.  I'm pretty sure Nintendo does not allow you to make backups of their games, were as Sony is more lenient on that.  For those that rip and then distribute the ROMs on websites, that's definitely illegal.

Actually, way back when, it was ruled that owners of software are legally allowed to make backup copies of their programs. I seem to recall it was mandated in a court case when PC companies tried to not even allow you to back up your OS and such. So, I think Nintendo *has* to let you make a backup, else be in violation of many US laws (and, therefore, probably not legally allowed to sell in the US if they don't comply to it).

 

[EternalShadow]

As far as I remember, playing emulations of games you own is legal. However, that is only the base law and there are other variables that contribute to the overall legality of the process, such as a company's individual TOU/TOS, the game's TOU/EULA, and even more.

Anyway, my view is that if it is really old or your original gaming console/system has broken, and that if you have already bought the game, I wouldn't care if you told me you had an emulation. I'd care even less if you were using an emulator to run a game you already own/have bought to get around its hardware requirements, though. Like, DOS games.

 

[Andar]

Different Countries have different laws, and the points mentioned here are often incomplete or for specific cases.


One example: The right to make a backup copy of a program was only valid if the company selling it didn't provide a way for replacement discs when sending in the damaged discs. Some companies considered that too much of a difficulty and conformed to the backup copies, others required you to send in damaged discs for replacement and denied the backups.


Copyrights usually can't be extended, only trademarks can - but I heard that in the US the copyright length had been extended several times, appearantly mainly to protect disney's copyright on Mickey Mouse (according to a rumor I heard).


And there is one additional problem: While it can be argued that any copy for emulation is illegal, it is illegal only according to civil laws. And in most countries a lawsuit according to civil laws requires the owner of the copyright/trademark to proof that he had been damaged - no one else can even start a lawsuit. So if the owning company doesn't exist anymore (and their IP hadn't been purchased by someone else), then no one can sue you for having a copy anymore.

 

[Alexander Amnell]

I used one once to play fire emblem: sword of seals... That's my only experience with emulators and morally I still dislike the idea. If ever that game is released outside of Japan I'll buy it even if it's for a system I don't own/don't plan to own, but I don't see that happening. Release the first half of a game in English, then ignore the second part of that game even when it's franchise blows up with popularity over in the states... But as a general rule I avoid Roms; to much temptation when you can grab up virtually any game you want for free.

 

[Heretic86]

Personally, I dont have a problem with it.

The people that build emulators are smart and working to become even smarter.  They do everything they can so they can understand how things work.  Another benefit of emulators is prosperity.  In another hundred years, Nintendo Cartridges will probably no longer physically be around, and if they are, they most likely will not work.  How would you feel if you put your heart and soul into a game that was beloved by the community and you release it for free for all, but found out that every copy of the game was gone in a few years?  There are a LOT of older games like this.  Games that were made back in the 80's and 90's were probably stored on Floppy Disks that have gone bad and can no longer be read.  The source code for these games has been completely lost.  The compiled code that ended up on many cartridges, forturnately, are still in existence.  SEGA has had tremendously bad luck with their source code, even from the 16 bit era.  Much of the actual source code has been lost or damaged.

A lot of these classic games that are still available today are run through emulation on the newer consoles.  And this is really the only way you can get them to work once the source code goes bye bye.  The games that are easiest to spot are the ones that are completely unchanged from their original release.  Most other games will contain minor tweaks and bugfixes here and there, if they actually needed these things.  These companies to whom the copyright belongs to can still turn over a profit on emulated games when done correctly. 

Hell the PS2 emulated the PS1 and the PS3 emulated the PS2 for a while.  PS4 however is not backward compatible.  One of the reasons that the PS3 was so expensive in its initial release was because it contained a chipset specifically based on being able to run PS2 games.  Later in the lifecycle of the PS3, that chip was pulled and it helped to reduce the cost of the console, but at the price of losing backward compatability as well.  Much of that backward compatability was achieved through emulation, so companies even emulate their own products. 

So like I said, I do not have any problems with emulation.  I do have a big problem with flat out theft, and emulation is not always theft.