TheoAllen

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This is off-topic as well. But I will just say once.

Frostorm, I have seen you post theory thread after theory thread for a couple months now on your game.
As far as I know, Frostorm is not talking about their game. Frostorm just pretty much opens a discussion about a specific topic about game design. Except if Frostorm shamelessly inserts "in my game" and asking "what do you think about this?". Instead, he asked, "how is yours? are you using this?". He intrigued by how people think.

Sometimes, you do need someone to open a discussion to gain an interesting perspective from people. And that is perfectly fine. I would believe Frostorm just excited to see what people think about it.

Problem is that you aren't using that precious time to make even a demo
Wasting time is when you're asking too much about your game design if it is alright. Or announcing if you're going to do this but actually don't. Worrying too much about it even before doing it. You don't know if Frostorm is actually making the demo right now.

If I'm being a jerk, it's because I don't want you to keep making the same mistakes I'm prone to.
As someone who has learned a lot by actually making a game and get various results from my test subject players, I get where did you come from. But please, spare them alone ....
 

RachelTheSeeker

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I am sorry for being a huge jerk, then. There was no need for me to assume the worst and rant about it. Let alone projecting. Carry on.
 
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Anthony Xue

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Good lord, one day offline and the whole thing goes off the rails. At this point, I think the discussion has progressed into territory that doesn't have much to do with its original purpose, so I'll leave it with these remarks...

There's so, so much you can't account for when making a game without actually doing it. It took me 8+ years to actually create one (1) game with my OC, and I'm still learning from experience. It feels like you want to have this perfect theorycraft before any and all progress is made on the actual game.

I started out with about a dozen unfinished attempts and one complete small game before doing my first large game (and I mean "large" - 100+ quests, hundreds of areas, hundreds of NPCs with sometimes extremely complex dialogue trees, and so on). You know what I thought after having completed that last project? I wished I had done more theorycrafting. I agree that just starting to walk down the road is better than forever staying home looking at maps because then at least you'll eventually end up somewhere, but if the journey is going to take years (as you noted yourself), maybe it's not actually a bad idea to make sure you know where exactly you want to go and how you're going to reach that place. Though I guess that depends on how important it is to you to reach a specific destination...

This design is also how most of my posts take shape. They're intended to teach you something and make you think.

Indeed, your attitude is hard to miss. Of course, this requires the assumption that you're in a position to teach other people something, i.e. that your ideas are somehow more valid than theirs. Apart from being slightly mistaken, this view also has the problem that you won't ever be able to advance your own concepts by incorporating the ideas of others, since by your definition they cannot hold any merit. That's all up to you, of course, but you might be better off starting a YouTube channel for teaching.

Personally, I disagree with you on so many points I don't think it makes sense to continue. For instance, why are video games supposed to require an audience by definition, but a book doesn't? Why can't they be a medium of self-expression? This only holds true if you want to reach as broad an audience as possible, but then that's the case with any work of art. And so on. I guess I'll take a lesson from @RachelTheSeeker here and get back to my game instead...

It's not so important to try to argue semantics in order to try to prove yourself right.

But this is basically what you've been doing for most of the thread.

Have a nice day, everybody, and stay healthy.
 

Tai_MT

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I started out with about a dozen unfinished attempts and one complete small game before doing my first large game (and I mean "large" - 100+ quests, hundreds of areas, hundreds of NPCs with sometimes extremely complex dialogue trees, and so on). You know what I thought after having completed that last project? I wished I had done more theorycrafting. I agree that just starting to walk down the road is better than forever staying home looking at maps because then at least you'll eventually end up somewhere, but if the journey is going to take years (as you noted yourself), maybe it's not actually a bad idea to make sure you know where exactly you want to go and how you're going to reach that place. Though I guess that depends on how important it is to you to reach a specific destination...

The only insertion I have to say to this is: Sometimes where you set out to go is not really where you wanted to be. Starting down the road is important in that regard. As humans, we frequently think of goals of where we want to be and what we want to be doing and reaching those goals frequently doesn't give us the satisfaction or fulfillment that we had envisioned (or even the result!).

It's important to recognize that a person can learn any and everything they want, but if they never do anything with that knowledge, then it is a moot point to obtain it.

Using my entire life as that example, I can tell you that the things I wanted to be as a child are not the things that would've ever fulfilled me as an adult. Likewise, the games I wanted to make all along the way would never have been the one that I'm making right now, which I am proud of.

Theorycrafting is useful knowledge to have, but it can be obtained in a variety of ways. The best of which (in my opinion) is through personal experience. If learned in this way, it resonates with us better and we internalize it much easier. Reading about it through a book isn't as useful as attempting to enact it yourself or even circumvent it.

After all, it's hard to replicate the construction of a clock if you don't take it apart yourself.

Indeed, your attitude is hard to miss. Of course, this requires the assumption that you're in a position to teach other people something, i.e. that your ideas are somehow more valid than theirs.

I innately reject the ideas that "there are no wrong answers". To me, this always feels like a cop out. A way to say "I'm still right, even if you've proven I'm wrong".

Everyone has plenty to teach other people even if they don't think they do or want to do it. Even if my ideas are wrong, if you're smart enough, you'll learn something from it.

A smart person will realize when they've learned everything in the world. A wise person realizes that knowing everything in the world means they know absolutely nothing.

A person does not have to agree with me at all to learn something valuable from what I say. They need only put away their own biases and contempt from someone telling them that they disagree and are wrong in order to learn anything from it.

Learn or don't. Up to you.

Apart from being slightly mistaken, this view also has the problem that you won't ever be able to advance your own concepts by incorporating the ideas of others, since by your definition they cannot hold any merit.

The problem this line of thinking has is that you are assuming those ideas haven't already been considered. They haven't already been tried. Or dissected. Your assumption is that someone who holds a different viewpoint has never once considered the opposite viewpoint. Its an assumption born from personal ego rather than reality.

You've never once even inquired how I came to my conclusions or how I decided on the things I believe. Your thought process on it went no further than, "this person disagrees with me, so I must prove them wrong".

Meanwhile, all this time, I've been analyzing everything you've been saying to get a clearer picture of you as a person and make logical deductions about what has lead you to hold the opinions you hold and take the actions you've been taking.

This is probably why my forte in game design has more to do with player manipulation than anything else. I figure out who they are, why they do what they do, and then design game systems around that behavior.

Your assumption is that I can't learn anything from someone if I don't agree with them. Your assumption is that I dismiss someone else's opinion that I disagree with out-of-hand and out-of-context. My posts prove otherwise. Now, granted, this is how most people act. They shut out anything they don't want to hear because admitting someone else might be right is as much a sacrilege as admitting error in thought or action... But, you'll find such an assumption is dangerous to make. Especially when you run across people who aren't so concerned with being wrong and are more concerned with learning the best way to do things.

Put simply, if I express something holds no merit, it is for a few reasons:
1. The intent of what its purpose is, is not achieving the desired effect.
2. The design of something is antithetical to "fun" in any way, shape, or form.
3. Something is needlessly complicated, which means it has a lot of moving parts, and a lot of ways to fail.
4. It's poorly implemented with no thought behind why it was implement and is done strictly as "because it's cool and I once played a game that had this feature in it, and that game was fun, so having this automatically makes my game fun". Or, to put it bluntly... the dev thinks like EA executives. Steal ideas from other games and put them into their own game divorced from context and purpose in the hopes that by sheer osmosis, the system or feature will be fun for simply existing.
5. The system or feature just isn't going to be fun for the intended audience. Usually this is an issue of genre (like putting MMO systems into singleplayer games), but most often it's just that the dev has done no proper analysis of the game they're trying to create and what they want their players to be doing.

I, personally, don't like many of the most popular design choices for RPG's. Minigames. Crafting. Puzzles. On-Screen Encounters. I'm not inherently against them, however. I know several ways in which they can work and to spectacular degree. These can be done well. The problem is that most really aren't, so I often recommend devs not include such systems.

A dev needs to be prepared to scrap any mechanic or system they ever implement because it isn't working as intended. If they can't bring themselves to do it... they have no business being a dev to begin with. A dev also needs to be prepared to put in as much work as is required in order to make something provide the experience the dev wants. That includes knowing the drawbacks to any system and working hard to mitigate those issues.

Most devs on these forums really aren't interested in putting forth the effort to study how their own preferred systems are terrible and how they could mitigate existing issues with them. Most of them are only interested in pushing their own agendas and defending their own work.

That's all up to you, of course, but you might be better off starting a YouTube channel for teaching.

I prefer text format. I also prefer to have lengthy conversations in which people can be directly and easily opposed with facts and information rather than in a format that is easily dismissed out-of-hand like YouTube.

Plus, I don't like to talk and really don't want to be associated with any sort of "fame" in any way possible. If I had my way, I'd go through life as the guy from the Twilight Zone episode "What You Need". If you haven't seen that episode, I suggest you go find it and watch it. That's the life I want to lead.

Personally, I disagree with you on so many points I don't think it makes sense to continue. For instance, why are video games supposed to require an audience by definition, but a book doesn't?

The difference in how they're consumed. With games, players find their own fun in them. The experience a dev crafts is often not the experience the players have. A player can hate the story of a game, but enjoy the mechanics and have a great time as a result. Or, vice versa. Or, the player can enjoy only the characters and not enjoy anything else, so they play for the character interactions. Or, the player can enjoy purely the gunplay of the game and nothing else about it, and still enjoy the game.

A book, on the other hand, is consumed quite differently. If a reader doesn't enjoy the characters, they aren't going to enjoy the book. If they don't enjoy the story, they aren't going to enjoy the book. Etcetera. Most forms of artistic expression are very "all or nothing". Books are no exception.

Likewise, there is a difference in creation. A person paints because they have a drive express themselves. They aren't usually doing it for an audience. Writers are the same. Musicians too. Sure, some want to be famous, but most of that is a simply from a drive to be understood... or just to be rich.

Game devs, however, make games because they want people to play the game and praise it. No matter what game devs you see that will tell you, "I'm making a game for me", they're lying to you and to themselves. We all make games because we want to create an experience that most of the world enjoys and will talk about and will create walkthroughs for. We do it for personal validation. Most other creatives aren't doing their craft for validation, they're doing it because it's the best and easiest ways for them to communicate with the world.

But this is basically what you've been doing for most of the thread.

Actually, it's what everyone else has been doing in the thread as a means to dismiss my point of view rather than trying to refute it. There hasn't even been any sort of real discussion on the points I've raised about why it's better to not use a stat point system for a binary check. There were a couple half-hearted attempts at it, but once I refuted them, the discussion stopped and quickly turned over to whether or not D&D was an MMO or not.

People arguing semantics rather than the points, because they so desperately want to be right. That, and they think that proving one small thing right means it invalidates everything else a person says. It's rather naive.
 

Wavelength

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Theory means absolutely, positivity jack-flippin'-squat if you don't back it up with practice.

Frostorm, I have seen you post theory thread after theory thread for a couple months now on your game. Problem is that you aren't using that precious time to make even a demo, let alone a design document, and much less a blasted game that can be tested through play. I'd probably be using more coarse language if it was allowed here to describe my frustrations, but minced oaths will have to do.
...
If I'm being a jerk, it's because I don't want you to keep making the same mistakes I'm prone to. Take this and any advice with a grain of salt, as I'm a pantser who's better off making episodic, short-length, self-contained anything in a persistent cast of characters and settings. But please mull it over. Especially before you make another thread. I like yapping about game design ideas and theory like anyone here, but... wow.
I just want to be clear that the General Discussion boards (and especially the Game Mechanics board) does welcome theoretical discussion, even stuff that very few people would ever be able to add into your RPG Maker game - to the point that even non-RPG discussion is perfectly fine (although you can see why it often centers on traditional JRPGs).

If someone enjoys studying and discussing game design as a hobby in itself, with no intentions to make a game, that is their prerogative.

While @Frostorm has posted quite a few topics on this board, I appreciate that he does: most of the topics turn into interesting discussions with good advice, and it keeps this board lively. (If the discussions coming out of them were low-quality, by now we would have asked him to tone down the number of threads.)

@RachelTheSeeker I do also want to say that your own advice about putting yourself in situations with strict deadlines/limits, and being mindful of the traps of feeling that you always need to add something more or that something you have isn't good enough to share, is really good advice - and advice that I find I need to constantly remind myself of. :) "Perfection is the enemy of Greatness," as they sometimes say.
 

Frostorm

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It's important to recognize that a person can learn any and everything they want, but if they never do anything with that knowledge, then it is a moot point to obtain it.
I'll have to disagree with this. I love learning for the sake of learning. In my youth, I would endlessly browse Wikipedia, going from page to page, tangent to tangent. Am I ever going to build a particle accelerator? No, of course not, but I loved learning about Quantum Mechanics and Particle Physics nonetheless. I just don't see why someone must have a practical application as a valid reason to obtain knowledge. Learning doesn't always have to be a means to an end. There is value in learning itself.

I more or less make threads on topics that I'm interested in learning more about. I try to keep it open-ended so other readers can benefit as well, instead of focusing on just my project. I'd like to think of it as a win-win situation, that's my hope anyway.

Anyway, this thread has pretty much been derailed so I don't really see any point in continuing. @Wavelength I'll let you be the judge whether to close this or not...
 
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TheGentlemanLoser

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@Tai_MT I find you very tedious. More importantly your presence in this thread means I now find this thread @Frostorm started tedious too, which is kind of a shame but still no great tragedy.

I don't have the time or energy to continue to explain to you why you're wrong about a huge chunk of what you're vehemently insisting in many many many many many words is the case. Particularly without resorting to the argument from experience/argument from authority genetic fallacies, i.e. "I have published X tabletop roleplaying games since year z and they have won y industry awards and in the XX conversations I've had with YY gamers and ZZ different game conventions since year XYZ I am pretty ****ing sure I know what min-maxing is".

I'm not gonna ignore you, this is only the first thread you've ruined for me and I'm not a big fan of using the ignore function except in circumstances much more extreme than this. Way back in the day I'd be writing hundreds, even thousands of words of aggressive refutation--my god, I was a dumb dumb kid getting way too bent out of shape about people being "wrong on the internet" for so many wasted years of my life--but I've managed to gain a modicum of maturity over time, so that time will go into making my game instead. Peace out.

@RachelTheSeeker

I should clarify that I don't know Frostorm from Adam, but did you just mean to imply that his entire game was vaporware? Because frankly that seems pretty rude. To me there seems to be ample evidence that he's developing a game in the editor and that it's reasonably far along so...yeah...
 

Tai_MT

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I'll have to disagree with this. I love learning for the sake of learning. In my youth, I would endlessly browse Wikipedia, going from page to page, tangent to tangent. Am I ever going to build a particle accelerator? No, of course not, but I loved learning about Quantum Mechanics and Particle Physics nonetheless. I just don't see why someone must have a practical application as a valid reason to obtain knowledge. Learning doesn't always have to be a means to an end. There is value in learning itself.

I never said or even implied that you had to use the information as a practical application. The purpose of your learning is purely entertainment value. So, it has a purpose. At least, to a limited extent. It may not have practical value to your station in life, but it improves your overall quality of life.

Likewise, you'll probably end up using some of that information as you move forward. I pick up bits and bobs of nearly every topic on the planet out of curiosity so I know a little about a lot and sometimes a lot about a little. But, I end up using that knowledge for practical applications as there's no reason to really not use it for those things if I can.

Most of those practical applications are as follows:
1. Fodder for writing stories.
2. Fodder for participating in interesting intellectual debates.
3. Knowing the random piece of information just as a "topic starter" in social situations.
4. Useful physical application of a concept, theory, or design for usage in everyday life or in projects.

However, to the point of these forums... We're all here for essentially game design tips and tricks and theories and etcetera. It makes no sense to come here, participate in those discussions, and then not use the information in the design of your own game or at least teaching others "best practices" in designing their own.

The problem you will run into is "the human mind". Namely, the "use it or lose it" phenomena. If you aren't using the information you are attaining in any way, you quickly and easily forget about and will have to learn it all over again or try really hard to remember the details of something you learned years ago. To that extent, if you aren't going to use the knowledge in some way, there's really not much point in learning it. At least in a practical sense. The time spent learning it could've been spent doing something more fun or rewarding.

But, if just the act of learning is fun for a person, then there's no real harm in that. It's no different than playing a video game for fun.

@TheGentlemanLoser

I'm genuinely sorry that someone disagreeing with you ruins a thread for you. Not much I can do about that. But, these are forums. They exist to facilitate the exchange of ideas. In the case of this topic and these forums, to discuss implementation, drawbacks, advantages, and personal opinions about a specific Video Game System (or anything about game systems and game design, really).

I never know really what to say with the strange behavior of, "I wanted to discuss the topic up until I had to defend and explain my point of view".

Anyway, I'll still be here if you would like to actually defend your point of view or try to refute mine. But, let's keep to the topic at hand rather than jumping off the rails repeatedly to discuss semantics in an effort to use them to discredit someone. That's the part that's tedious to me.
 

gstv87

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checking stats is always the core function of an RPG.
everything should be stat-based, because otherwise there's no point.

the diference with RPGMaker-made games, is that many of them rely on the skill's own damage formula, bypassing any core calculation.
that's why I tell people to GET RID OF THE DAMAGE FORMULA AND LEARN TO SEND YOUR CALCULATIONS TO THE CORE FUNCTION! OTHERWISE WHAT'S THE POINT IN HAVING THEM!

.....and yes, even by yelling they don't seem to notice, or care.
 

RachelTheSeeker

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I literally have no valid response to those pinging my malice-laced post. I am responding to say that yes, my douchebag rant is douchey. I am sorry for saying these vicious things to Frostorm, and for not grasping simple context. I don't want any further involvement with this thread hereafter.
 

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