Stats vs Dialogue

[Tai_MT]

It's been a while since I've started my own topic, but I kind of wanted some feedback on a system I'd like to implement into my game.  My problem is that I'm not sure it's compelling or interesting enough to use for a player.

Minor piece of background information first.  I had originally envisioned a system in which the player would be given accessories at specific story points and they could decide whether or not to equip them based on what they might perceive the payoff to be.  I labeled the items "Sins" and they would hinder the character in some major capacity (stats, states, etcetera) and offer no pay off until the item had been equipped for 5 in-game hours (essentially handicapping your characters in major ways with the item being changed after hour 5 into a fairly major and useful item).  I scrapped the idea entirely because of there being no way to adequately explain this to new players and after using it for a while, it seemed more silly and less incentivized.

However, I've recently come up with an idea to implement this system again and I'd like to get some feedback on it.

First of all, I've scrapped the time limit entirely.  Instead, the time limit is replaced by a variable that goes up based on having the item equipped.  The way I want it to work is thus:  You are given the item and it drops stats or inflicts bad states upon you while it's equipped.  Ideally, these stats are dropped by a percentage instead of a flat rate (I was thinking a 30% reduction).  Now, while your stats are lowered in important ways, having the item equipped during certain dialogues with NPCs, Party Members, or even Cutscenes would yield new dialogue or even different dialogue.  Each time the new or different dialogue was triggered, the variable for the item would go up by importance of the dialogue.  After reaching a certain threshold, the item would then trigger a Character Storyline event in which they confront their "Sin" and the item changes into something fairly beneficial for combat.  I had planned on letting players "put off" doing their Character Storyline until close to the end, if they wanted to see all the dialogue, but I hadn't planned on players actually doing such a thing.

So my question becomes, "Does this sound interesting or fun?".  It also becomes, "Would you trade your stats away for more dialogue/story?".

Thanks for the help!  Also, if you have questions about this because I haven't explained it well enough, feel free to ask.  This isn't an implemented feature yet or even a fully planned one.  This is just a test balloon on the whole concept.

 

[Eurgh]

You'd have to get the players interested in the story a great deal and make it really compelling to convince someone to drop their stats for story. The extra dialogue would also have to be extremely interesting to be even remotely worth making the game harder to get them.

But that's just my opinion, I love story but most people wouldn't favor it over actual gameplay and winning.

 

[Kes]

If I were a player I might be very reluctant to do this.  The story would have to be stunning, and the ultimate pay-off extremely good to put up with 30% reduction on my stats for a big chunk of the game.  So the whole of the story and dialogue up to the point of getting the item(s) would have to be stellar to convince me that it was worth it.  No space for it to be merely good.  And even then, I would probably hesitate.

How, though would you prevent the player taking the particular equipment off for battles and putting it back on for dialogue with NPCs?  If it's like 'cursed armor' i.e. once equipped it cannot be unequipped, I think the all-or-nothing nature of it would probably mean that a significant number (many? most?) would not equip, which is what tends to happen with a lot of cursed armour, (and that is giving a boost right from the off) and if it could be unequipped then many (most?) would unequip it for battle, negating the whole purpose of the item.

 

[Tai_MT]

I had not planned on it being "Cursed" in any way.  Yes, you could remove it for battle and only equip it for when you would have conversation.  The only way I had thought of dealing with this was just through normal gameplay.  There would be instances of the game where combat would come directly after a conversation or a cutscene.  I don't want the items to be a "punishment" of any kind.  I want them to be an option for players.  Players who want to see arcs of the characters resolved or maybe different dialogue/changed dialogue based upon having those items equipped.

What I'm getting out of this is that it may be a misstep of the dialogue or story aren't interesting to the player.  That's a fair issue that I hadn't thought of.  I had just assumed that if someone had reached the point of obtaining the first of the items, they were already invested in the story and the characters.  I hadn't thought that they may just be playing the game because it may not be bad or boring enough to drop, but it's good enough to go along with until it does get bad or boring or annoying.  Such a feature could be "the straw that broke the camels' back" at that point.  There certainly isn't any guarantee that my writing talent is any good, so that could be a major issue.

Okay, let me throw some new ideas out here and see if you think they make it any more appealing.

What if the item that it changed into was equivalent to a 30% stat gain?  Maybe...  The item could also have some semi-useful and rare benefit for combat as well?  I don't know, maybe losing 30% of your ATK power could reward you with 3x Experience Points?  Losing 30% of your DEF could reward you with x2 Item Drop Rate? 

 

[ArcaneEli]

I wouldn't drop the stats by THAT much... And I hope that you would explain that these Rare Accessories actually do something and not like I'm looking at it wondering why da heck would I equip this random accessory when all it's gonna do it hurt me?

I'd give some tradeoffs like, -15% all stats +20% elemental resistances etc...

 

[LostFonDrive]

 maybe losing 30% of your ATK power could reward you with 3x Experience Points?  

Don't do this. That is ridiculously OP

 

[Scott_C]

I'm personally willing to give up stats for story bonuses. For example, there have been plenty of RPGs where I kept a statistically inferior character in my party just because I liked their dialogue more than any of the “better” characters.

I've also played plenty of games where I accepted an early stat penalty in exchange for a later stat bonus.

So while your system obviously won't appeal to everyone I think there are players who would find it interesting.

 

[Tai_MT]

@Arcane

Well, the stat drops are so large because the accessories are meant to be a physical manifestation of what is wrong with the character as a person.  The first character gets "Guilt", the second gets "Lies", the third gets "Betrayal" and so on.  They simply make no sense to implement without them being a drawback to the character in question.  Which, I understand why you would say that it's too much.  That's part of the reason I scrapped them in the first iteration.  5 hours was too long to be handicapped with the kind of penalties I was inflicting.  I'm trying to find a way to make it interesting or compelling to players.  If I can't...  Well, it'll stay scrapped.  If some sort of other buff for combat would be a means of making them more interesting, I may look more into that.

As for explaining it...  That's probably a toss up.  As convenient as it would be to just lay it all out for the player, it's not something I particularly want to engage in.  The way it is currently planned out, the item is given out during a cutscene relevant to the character involved.  Then, the character delivers a line about having to try to overcome the problem and that they could become a better person for doing so.  The flavor text upon the item itself would also reference that it's a punishment and it needs to be overcome.  I'm not sure that's enough, but I don't want to just break the fourth wall and say, "hey, keep this equipped for dialogue and cutscenes and it'll turn into something really cool".  I'd like it to more tie in to the story and the world I've created.  If, of course, that makes any kind of sense.

@LostFonDrive

In a standard RPG where level = power, I would never do that.  The only reason I'd even considered it was because of the way I have been tackling a "level up" system as well as a "gain stats" system.  Level in my game simply opens up paths in the world (mostly shortcuts, though the actual first story quest doesn't start until you've gained 45 XP and made it to level 2... which is a design choice so that players can get accustomed to the game itself before they're put in the story).  Most gained levels open up shortcuts around the maps or sometimes dungeons.  Sometimes, levels open up new shops and such.  I didn't want players to focus on gaining XP, I wanted them to focus on doing Quests.  As such, nearly all stats are rewards for Quest Completion.  There are points in the game where I allow the purchasing of stats, but they're fairly expensive.  However, x3 XP gain may be too much regardless.  Perhaps it would be better to do something else entirely (though early game, all that would do is change 1 to 5 XP per monster into 3 to 15 XP per monster).  I'll consider something else if I pursue that method.

@Scott_C

I was kind of hoping the original way I was thinking of doing things would appeal to a few players.  Players who might take the item and go, "This sounds like it might lead to a richer story experience.  A 30% reduction in one of my stats is worth it for the experience".  I, too, would make the choice of dialogue and story over stats, though I think you and I are in the minority on it.  Really, that's okay too.  I'd like to find a way to try to cater to the players who don't want such a heavy penalty placed on them just for some "silly dialogue and storyline".  If I can't do that...  I may save the idea for a later project or just scrap it entirely as too difficult to make appealing to a wider audience.

It is, however, very nice to know that there are other people out there who might find it interesting.

 

[Scott_C]

If you want a subtle way to let players know that “sins” unlock new dialogue you might want to also introduce some “virtue” items that offer minor bonuses and unlock some positive dialogue.

The player equips “hope” for a +X attack bonus and later notices that the store keeper's dialogue changes to “You've been so full of energy lately. Have a free ITEM on the house”.

He starts to wonder if any other equips unlock hidden scenes and eventually switches to “Lies” which lets him stumble into one of the bonus scenes and hopefully eventually convinces him to keep it equipped long term in hopes of finding even more secrets.

 

[HumanNinjaToo]

I think it's a good idea but, I would make it the entire focus of the game instead of an added feature. For example, the game would have it's story and all that but these sins are a major part of completing the story and developing the characters. In order to better deal with the antagonist or whatever the goal is, the characters must take on their own personal struggles and overcome their own shortcomings. It'd be a great way to tackle the 7 deadly sins theme.

I believe it should go farther than just changing dialogue and story options though. I think the chosen sin should affect battle in more than just raising and lowering stats. Having permanent states that go along with the sin would be an interesting addition. Choosing whether or not to overcome the sin in each battle would add an interesting aspect. Let's say each battle the characters start with the sinful state and has the option to purge themselves during battle. Of course their will be some type of cost to do so but, they would be able to add to the variable that eventually frees them from the sin completely. This gives the player options as opposed to just going through the dialogue scenes.

It's really a very creative idea and my mind is racing with ideas of how I would design a game around this concept. I hope you decide to take this concept of yours and run with it.

 

[Wavelength]

I think it's a very cool idea in theory, and I think I would use it as a player.  However, I think I would end up doing a lot of micromanaging (equipping it and unequipping it based on, for example, how low my health was when about to talk to someone), and I don't know if that would be fun.

My instinct is that the different dialogue should not be viewed as an ends in itself, but rather a "side benefit" that the player will enjoy as they work toward a real benefit.  Make the item you're working toward VERY powerful, and keep the changed dialogue when the player has the new (beneficial) item equipped.  Or have a third set of dialogue for once the character has conquered their vice!  Or, instead of working toward an item after X conversations, you could have the equipment permanently increase the character's stats (or something else) as they build up points from conversations.

Also, as an alternative to having the points be accumulated via important conversations (which I do think is a fairly good system), you could have the points be accumulated with each battle (with higher-difficulty battles awarding more points).

 

[Tai_MT]

@HumanNinjaToo

It's... not really the focus of my game, ha ha.  It's more a focus on the characters in the game as they all have these unique problems in their lives tied to their "Sins" (which aren't actually tied to the seven deadly sins, they're just character flaws and I've labeled them as Sins to make more sense in context of the game's setting).  I hadn't considered your ideas, but they might be interesting in a different game.  The way the dialogue is planned to work is that having the Sin equipped would result in the character either engaging or not engaging in the behavior of the sin depending on the variable (like further along, the Sin of "Lies" would result in said character being a lot more honest as they were learning to no longer lie).  The states I had thought about inflicting would have been tied to the Sin description itself.  The Sin of "Betrayal" would inflict a state that causes the character to randomly attack one of your own party members on a percentage chance.  I'm thinking that a bad state on top of a 30% reduction in stats is not really the way to go, however.

Feel free to take your ideas about the sins and run with them, if you like.  They sound interesting, but not like I could use them for my own game.  With how my battle systems already work, I think these might be an unnecessary layer on top of what I've got.  Still, could be a lot of fun if put into a game more in line with them.

@Wavelength

I like the idea of having the new item obtained after the Sin is conquered also giving the dialogue, or even new dialogue all its own.  I think I might steal that off of you, if you don't mind, especially since I don't think it would be hard to just make the game check to see if you have the item with you and make the item unsellable.  I like the idea of there being actual stat points being given out depending on where that variable lies, but I think it might work better if I simply slap more stat points as reward for Quest Completion, so long as the item was equipped for steps along the way.  Every Quest gives out stat points as a reward for completing them, and I don't think it'd be too difficult to make the game check for the item in certain places along the path.  Though, that might get fairly variable heavy...  I'll think about it some.

As for the idea about battles accumulating the points.  I had considered that, especially after someone suggested that such a system could be exploited by simply only equipping the item for the dialogues and cutscenes.  However, I don't want players just tossing it on and grinding weak monsters for points either.  What if after major boss fights, if the fight was won, the game checks to see if the item is equipped, and gives more points for having it equipped at the end of the fight?  Just a thought, and I'm not sure how it might work in practice, but it seems like it could be doable.

 

[Wavelength]

@Wavelength
I like the idea of having the new item obtained after the Sin is conquered also giving the dialogue, or even new dialogue all its own.  I think I might steal that off of you, if you don't mind, especially since I don't think it would be hard to just make the game check to see if you have the item with you and make the item unsellable.

Of course.  I suggested it for you to use it.

As for the idea about battles accumulating the points.  I had considered that, especially after someone suggested that such a system could be exploited by simply only equipping the item for the dialogues and cutscenes.  However, I don't want players just tossing it on and grinding weak monsters for points either.  What if after major boss fights, if the fight was won, the game checks to see if the item is equipped, and gives more points for having it equipped at the end of the fight?  Just a thought, and I'm not sure how it might work in practice, but it seems like it could be doable.

You could have strong monsters give far more points than weak monsters, and have boss fights give even more than that.  As long as the points given for grinding weak monsters are relatively low, it won't be a problem.  With that being said, I think this way has its advantages but so does the "points through dialogue" system.  Giving it out based on number and difficulty of battles would make more a more balanced and fair system, while giving them out based on the "importance of dialogue" would make for a more novel and interesting system.

 

[Missile]

I'd imagine you could use the sins as a part of the difficulty curve, since it technically makes the game harder without having to break immersion with a hard-mode. Wavelength already brought it up, but seconding that it's probably a pretty good idea to layer something gameplay-related with the reward! Pulling this from http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Game-Design-lenses/dp/0123694965 , but it's usually good to layer as much as you can without disrupting the player, so that everything in the game has a chance to connect.

I think it's a good idea but, I would make it the entire focus of the game instead of an added feature. For example, the game would have it's story and all that but these sins are a major part of completing the story and developing the characters. In order to better deal with the antagonist or whatever the goal is, the characters must take on their own personal struggles and overcome their own shortcomings. It'd be a great way to tackle the 7 deadly sins theme.

This sounds like a cool idea, but used as a general mechanic for solving battles. Having to do a dungeon or fight specific mobs under a stat penalty (or any other sin restriction) could mix up tactics enough to make things feel different! The idea of battle-puzzles replacing overworld puzzles is definitely appealing, since most of an RPG happens in battle.

 

[CrazyCrab]

Personally? Absolutely, I would definitely use it if I were you, it's a great concept. Unless of course your stats are like 600... then 200 is a huge difference. If it's like 60 then having 40 is no big deal. I play RPGs mainly for story, so anything that improves my experience is welcome. Additionally the idea of missing some dialogue and scenes is compelling as well, as it allows for multiple playthoughs. Overall I find the idea really appealing and I think that you should stick to it - perhaps add an ''easy mode'' when it comes to those relics who will have trouble with the debuffs.

I also find RPGs absurdly easy most of the time, but then again I'm a min-maxer whenever possible. I just love coming up with functional and OP builds, not because I feel like breaking the game or anything, but because it's a fun puzzle to me. I'd probably barely notice the 30% drop if your RPG is as hard as most RPGs around. (Not trying to show off or anything, but it's a matter that's worth considering - if your game is like Dark Souls I'm guessing that very few will use it.)

 

[Tai_MT]

My goal is to make combat challenging by strategy instead of stats.  Not that I hate min/maxers in RPGs, I just don't like how boring such a thing tends to make any combat (hence why most people hate random encounters most of the time... mash attack and move on, stop interrupting me when I'm going somewhere!).  As such, I want stats to be only half of the combat experience.  The other half being what strategy you use to put 'em down.

If you're mashing "attack" in my game, I feel like I haven't done my job.  If you have to take a couple seconds to decide what to do, then I've done my job.

Currently, I'm just not sure how this is going to go because of the way my game currently works.  Stats awarded via quest completion and not via level up.  Stats are small, but meaningful (so percentages don't help or hurt much early on, but later it can be bad).  Percentage losses to stats would generally be very harmful for skills (as a point either direction can drastically alter how effective a skill is).

I'm actually tinkering with what base percentage I want the items to drop stats by.  I've yet to find a "sweet spot" that doesn't seem overly easy to mitigate or overly hard to compensate for.

Still, thanks for the input!   I appreciate it!