Struggle in media

[Astel]

Is struggle a lost concept in modern media?

I feel very disappointed with a lot of modern movies... in all this year the only thing i enjoyed was Fury Road, everything else was a big disappointment... lets take a shot at the biggest and easiest target... Avengers AoU, it's already old news but i believe it's still relevant.

The movie basically lost me at the very beginning, when the "big bad evil organization " panicked... saying "it's the avengers! it's the end, run for your lives!" i mean... seriously? -_-

and then... Ultron who was a big joke from start to end, he never felt dangerous at all...

Everytime someone bring this points, it comes the standard response... they are the heroes! you want that such an such character get killed? do you want that the bad guys win??

And before you ask, no... i don't want that. Why people think that death and complete defeat are the only ways to show struggle?

Is that hard to make the heroes to feel doubt? to wonder if maybe they won't win this time? Instead to mowing down countless fooder and stopping only to make a quick joke?

/end rant

I'm actually afraid to see what will they do to the new Star Wars ...

 

[FuzzyDemon]

I understand what you say. A lot of movies, shows and games fall in this as it seem popular anyway to have an invincible good guy which is just a huge mess of jokes and funny stereotypes, making them look more like products than actual characters. If they can make money out of it, they'll do it. But if you're lucky enough to find a show or movie made by people actually passionate about what they are doing, you can find some gems (pun maybe intended) that are simply too good to skip, with real character development and yes, doubt.

Have you seen Steven Universe?

I'm also curious about how the new Star Wars will turn out, but I'll just wait and see!

 

[Touchfuzzy]

I'm not sure we watched the same movie. While AoU wasn't my favorite Marvel film(Winter Soldier), and definitely not my favorite thing in the MCU(Daredevil), there was a lot of struggle, especially internal struggle. Hell, Stark's fear of failing caused him to create a genocidal maniac.

In the middle of the film they stop and hide away on a farm in the middle of nowhere because they had no idea what to even do.

 

[Astel]

I'm not sure we watched the same movie. While AoU wasn't my favorite Marvel film(Winter Soldier), and definitely not my favorite thing in the MCU(Daredevil), there was a lot of struggle, especially internal struggle. Hell, Stark's fear of failing caused him to create a genocidal maniac.

In the middle of the film they stop and hide away on a farm in the middle of nowhere because they had no idea what to even do.

Hide from who? Why? Ultron was beaten every time he tried to stand and fight, he was the one running and hiding again and again.

Also genocidal? Exactly who did he kill?

Spoiler

He even shot point blank that scientist and she survived.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

... How was Ultron beaten when Wanda screwed with all their minds, Hulk was unleashed in a populated center and had to be taken down by Stark, but only after ridiculous amounts of collateral damage, and Ultron got away with exactly what he came for (the Vibranium)?

They didn't really beat him until the very end. The only time they got close was when they stole the body from him, but even that required Wanda and Pietro betraying him at the last minute, and got Widow captured.

Also, planning to drop a large enough piece of land to cause an extinction event counts as genocidal, whether you succeed or not. Especially when the only thing that stops that plan is very very last minute intervention by a genius and a mythological god.

 

[Astel]

... How was Ultron beaten when Wanda screwed with all their minds, Hulk was unleashed in a populated center and had to be taken down by Stark, but only after ridiculous amounts of collateral damage, and Ultron got away with exactly what he came for (the Vibranium)?

Exactly all the damage was caused by hulk and the scarlet witch, not ultron... he just ran away in the confusion.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Which was... his plan? Like, I'm not sure how you can count Ultron doing exactly what he wanted as being beaten.

How is it not a struggle to go out to do one thing, then fail spectacularly to the point that you instead destroy a large part of a city?

I'm not even saying that AoU was the ideal modern movie (it isn't, though I liked it fine), but your complaints make zero sense. Whether it was portrayed well (arguable), the characters did not breeze through that movie.

 

[Astel]

So he was a schemer, not a fighter and his plans were not very bright either... i should make a separated topic about the Avengers i guess.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Also, as I pointed out in my first post by mentioning the high points of the MCU: Winter Soldier and Daredevil.

Seriously, watch Daredevil if you really think struggle is gone from modern media.

 

[noctiluca]

This is why I loved Candy Candy. Terrible things would always happen to her or around her and it was great, because I'd want to cheer her on or would feel sad or frustrated and wanted a happy ending for her.

And yeah I know people that hate that. Probably because they don't want to acknowledge the troubles in their lives and when they see it in fiction it makes them uncomfortable instead of relating to the protagonist's plight. Or the whole "my life is full of problems, why would I be entertained by seeing stories about more people with problems" but I think that's a pretty bitter way to view the world.

I have never seen Avengers though so I can't comment on that. I thought the whole point of superheroes (in general) was that they are a power fantasy and always beat the bad guys. There are exceptions though, especially in material that isn't mass marketed to sell toys to boys. I feel like dark gritty moody superheroes are more common now actually.

 

[Astel]

I have never seen Avengers though so I can't comment on that. I thought the whole point of superheroes (in general) was that they are a power fantasy and always beat the bad guys. There are exceptions though, especially in material that isn't mass marketed to sell toys to boys. I feel like dark gritty moody superheroes are more common now actually.

Not exactly... without going very far, in the Spiderman movies by Raimy they had plenty of struggle. The fights with the green goblin were very tense and you could feel that spiderman could actually lose... even if you knew that he will win by the end    that also happened with the Dr. Octopus in Spiderman 2 as he felt a lot stronger than spiderman... in Spiderman 3... now that movie never existed

 

[Nebuerys]

So he was a schemer, not a fighter and his plans were not very bright either...

Schemers can be as threatening, if not more than villains who can beat up a hero or two. Hiter, for example, didn't personally shot at his enemies but he still caused a lot of trouble.
Also, since the point of this thread is to discuss the lack of struggle in modern media, then I see very little reason to shine the spotlight only to Ultron. Quicksiver and Scaret Witch caused trouble, internal struggle was pretty apparent and Ultron, who may not be threatening by himself was as almost clever as Stark if not more and essentially invincible since he can transfer his consciousness to other bodies.

 

[Mouser]

First, Avengers is a bad example by design because that's the 'mash-up' movie that's supposed to show all the good guys kicking ass and taking names.  The 'individual' movies show more of what you're looking for.

Second, I think you've now seen enough 'Hollywood' movies where you've simply internalized the plot structure. You've seen it so many times you're no longer surprised and you know exactly how everything is going to turn out. Summer blockbusters are especially notorious for this, but Hollywood loves the three act structure. And why shouldn't they? It sells a lot of tickets.

I refuse to get my hopes up for Star Wars. Disney _can_ do dark, and they've done it before very well (even in 'kids' shows), but they're just as likely to make an even cuddlier Jar-Jar Binks. If it's good, I'll be very pleasantly surprised.