subclass problem

[mummia20]

I'm really thinking about implementing a subclass system in my game.

I even have most of the classes planned out. What's tripping me up is this: should the subclasses be split up among the base classes, treating each sub as a branch of the base? (Ie: knights can become berserkers, medics or spellblades, but rangers or thieves can't). OR, should I make the subs available to all classes, thus allowing for odd combos, like samurai-priestesses and gunslinger-witches?

 

[Andar]

that is a balancing question on one hand, and a setting question on the other.

Does your world/setting fit with mixed classes or not? Some worlds do, others do not - and if you mix things that don't fit, it will reduce the quality of your project.

And the other question depends on what options the subclasses have. Progressive subclasses are easier to balance as they don't change the general function of the actor. Mixing classes can result in much weaker and much stronger results depending on how the classes complement each other. And any way, the more possible choices you give, the more often you have to playtest for balancing. With progressive subclasses it is probably enough to have two or three playtests for each branch that changes a lot and ignore subclasses that give only similiar advancements. With mixed classes you should make at least four playtests for each possible combination with the classes - and there would be more such combinations without restrictions.

 

[Soryuju]

There are a number of factors you can consider when making a decision like this. Here are some of the things I’d try to account for:

1) How much time and effort are you willing/able to put into a system like this? And directly related to this, how many different classes are you aiming to have? How many party members?

An unrestricted class/subclass system can be lots of fun for players as they work to discover class combos and unique ability interactions, but it also introduces one of the most difficult combat balance challenges imaginable for developers. Between all the classes and members of a player’s party, there can be literally millions of setups players could theoretically go into combat with, and you need to make sure that none of the interactions between the pieces break your game too badly. For instance, you’ll probably want to check over your buff and skill interactions for combos which deal disproportionate amounts of damage to enemies relative to the other options the player has at that point in the game. It’s also generally important to check how defensive abilities stack to prevent players from setting up permanent invulnerability combos. Skills which are balanced in a vacuum can become problematic in many ways when they can be freely mixed with every other skill in the game.

Besides checking individual class pairings for broken combos, you also need to review your system for problems that may arise if the player stacks more than one of the same type of class or skill effect. For instance, if your Mage class has a Thunderstorm spell which damages and stuns all enemies for one turn, you could run into an issue where the player sets all of their characters to be Mages and permanently stun-locks every enemy in every single battle.

With that said, good initial skill design can save you a lot of headaches here. Set hard caps on the stacking limits of buffs and debuffs. Damage and healing caps are also something I’d strongly advise. If a skill has any sort of disabling or invulnerability effect, make the activation conditional to prevent it from triggering regularly (maybe the Thunderstorm skill from the previous example can only stun non-boss enemies which have a Lightning weakness, and you also design your game mechanics so that applying any stun in your game automatically gives the target immunity to all subsequent stun effects for the next 3 turns).

You can also trim down some of the theoretical class combinations you need to balance by making magical subclasses scale their damage/healing very poorly when used on a physical base class, and vice-versa. In other words, don’t give most classes usable ATK and MAG stats at the same time. There may still be some niche uses for mixed pairings based on the non-damage/healing utility of each class (e.g. maybe you pair Samurai and Priest just to have an extra character who can revive and cleanse status), but you can at least narrow the field of possibilities this way. It will lighten your balancing load and also make the number of possible class combinations less intimidating for your players.

Going back to the restricted subclass system you mentioned, this would pose a much more manageable balance challenge because the field of possibilities is much narrower. If you’re not willing to put lots of time and effort into playtesting your class balance, this system could actually allow more creativity from your players, because it reduces the chance that you’ll miss broken skill combinations that render everything else irrelevant.

2) What types of challenges do your enemies present to the player? In an unrestricted system, you need to design your encounters (especially bosses) to be doable without any particular class or combination of classes. That’s not to say that any combination of classes should be able to beat any battle in your game, however. The player is still responsible for making good decisions, but you shouldn’t funnel players toward specific classes because they’re the only ones capable of solving the challenges certain enemies present. Maybe some classes will make certain enemies easier, but it’s important to always keep options on the table. An unrestricted class/subclass system should be implemented with the intent of promoting creative problem solving from the player.

3) How much importance do you place on maintaining consistency between each character’s gameplay and story role? Is it okay if a player decides to take your grizzled, bitter war veteran and make him the party’s Dancer class? Or if they decide they want to give the shy, pious acolyte a Beserker/Necromancer class combination when she goes into battle? Is the Chosen One allowed to put down his sword sometimes and be the party’s main healer instead?

From browsing past topics on the subject, I’d say lots of people on these boards place importance on maintaining that consistency between story and gameplay, and I think there are plenty of good arguments for that. But with that said, I also don’t think it’s wrong to allow room for players to make their own interpretations of characters, either. Games are meant to be fun, and people have fun in different ways. If players have the most fun when they’re totally immersed in the story, they’re still free to line up each character’s combat and story roles in an unrestricted system. But if it makes my player happy to imagine that the shy acolyte blows off steam by going wild in battle, or that the war vet studied ballet in his youth, I don’t mind letting them. If they’re tired of playing as the knight in shining armor, I think it’s fine to let them reimagine my main character as a Priest or Thief instead. I think players will generally be flexible using their imaginations to fill in the gaps between gameplay and story (if they care about it in the first place), and that can make them feel a more personal connection to your characters.


With all that said, I think most people would advise you to go for the restricted class/subclass system, especially if you’re aiming to make a smaller project. I think this is generally good advice for most devs to follow. Personally, unrestricted class/subclass systems are one of my favorite features in RPGs, but they’re a huge undertaking to implement and balance properly, so it’s tough to recommend pursuing one unless you’re really committed to the idea.

 

[Wavelength]

At its core, I think the answer to this question boils down to a question of purpose - what are the most important feelings and dynamics that you are hoping your players get from the Classes, what are the most important feelings and dynamics you are hoping players get by adding Subclasses into the mix? Answering that might provide a clearer picture of whether it makes sense to let players mix and match anything, or whether a "tree" system of trunks and a limited number of branches might be more appropriate.

Besides that, I agree with nearly all of the very good advice that Andar and Soryuju gave you above, especially their analysis that being able to mix and match any class-subclass combo would potentially be very fun but could also be a balancing nightmare that makes it very hard to get the challenge level "right".

The one thing I'd disagree with above is @Soryuju's advice to set hard caps on things like buffs, damage, and healing. I don't necessarily see the value of hard caps on any of these, and there are more graceful, interesting ways to prevent things from getting out of hand anyway. Diminishing Returns (also known as "Soft Caps") tend to work well for things like stacking debuffs or utility (see below), or a system could be created where only the most powerful version of a buff/debuff on a battler will affect that battler at any given time (this also encourages the party to spread the love, if they have multiple characters who can inflict similar things).

An additional solution might involve having multiple party-wide resource pools to draw from in battle (Mana, Spirit, Faith, Energy, etc. - or perhaps Fire Mana, Water Mana, Air Mana, etc.), with careful Rationing of each type of skill into one type of resource. Skills that disable enemies might all require Energy, for example, so that it would be impossible for the party to permanently keep enemies in stun-locks because there's just not enough Energy to go around - and healing skills might all require Faith to prevent the overuse of healing.

 

[Basileus]

Before thinking about subclasses, I would want all of the details of the base class system nailed down.

Are classes unique to a character? If you are planning to have 1 character be a dedicated Warrior and another be a Healer because it suits their personalities and makes sense in their backstories as a chosen career, then I would have to wonder what subclasses are supposed to add. Fire Emblem: Awakening had a limited number of class options for each unit based on what would fit the character - while there were multiples of each class, the combination of available classes was more or less unique and specific to what made sense for that character.

Is it possible to change classes? If so, then are subclasses may not be necessary as the player can get a lot of customization from class changing instead. Final Fantasy V had the party changing classes often to meet different challenges and mastering a class allowed that character to use the mastered class skill with a different class - so mastering Black Mage let that character use Black Magic while in any other class. Dragon Quest III let the Hero's party members change classes, resetting them back to Lv 1 but keeping 1/2 of their stats and all of their spells. This let the player create hybrid classes like changing a Priest into a Soldier to create a powerful, tanky warrior that could also heal, or turning a Soldier into a Mage to make a magic damage dealer that had a lot of health.

If your party cannot change classes then it may make sense to give them subclasses so there is something more to customize. It really depends on what kind of abilities the subclasses will give - it doesn't make much sense to have subclasses unless there is some fundamental change in the character's abilities due to them. A Warrior/Blacksmith should play differently than a Warrior/Ranger. Then you would need to consider when/how classes and subclasses can be changed, whether you want there to be a cost (gold or a special item), and what price there is (level reset, stat drop, nothing at all, etc.).

I would say your 2 biggest considerations are 1. Expression of character, i.e. "What does this class/subclass say about my character? Is it a choice so I can decide my character's personality, or a device to communicate their existing personality to me?" 2. Expression of skill, i.e. "Does this give me any interesting options to do things I couldn't do before or test my skill/strategy in some way that can make the game easier or harder if I choose correctly?"

You make make them pure window-dressing to build lore and characterization, or you can make them an arbitrary device that gives extra power and offers a chance to customize the party to suit different challenges or play-styles. Or you can make them a combination of both. But you need to figure out what subclasses should be adding to your game and how that contributes to the game experience you want to create for the player.

 

[gstv87]

should I make the subs available to all classes, thus allowing for odd combos, like samurai-priestesses and gunslinger-witches?

there's subclassing, and there's multiclassing (both from different branches of RPG gaming, and sometimes confused for one another, and sometimes used interchangeably)
if you refer to D&D or similar tabletop systems, what you're describing is multiclassing: a base class, that can take up specific traits from other classes, without getting to completely replace their core play mechanics.
true *subclassing* only allows for certain traits of similar branching paths from a skill tree, for instance, "Knights" (armor-wearing, shield-mastering, melee warriors) could take traits from "Berserker" (no-armor-wearing, weapon-mastering, melee warriors) and "Spellblade" (armor-wearing, weapon-mastering, ranged fighters, with magic), *except!* when the base class itself already contemplates such branching within the core gameplay.
for example, when Paladin implies Knight, implies Fighter, implies Human or Elf.... and you can't subclass Dark Elf or Dwarf because they don't belong to your skill tree.

and then, *MMO* subclassing: complete replacement of the traits of a character with complete skill tree transfer, with limitations on the use of high gear equipment or spells, or access to specific quests.
basically, what some MMOs implement for people wanting to play other styles of characters without the need to require them to create another account, or start up from level 1 all over again.
you got your character, you play differently, but you can't reach the true endgame of the game (the end game of an MMO! ) as you would with your main character.