Subtracting Experience?

[Dymdez]

Is this a total taboo? Why? Why don't we punish players and remove EXP? Are there ANY circumstances where this is acceptable?

 

[Shaz]

If you wanted to have flashback-type sections of the game, it would be understandable to subtract experience (and thus, levels and possibly skills).


If your character had an accident, lost their memory, was influenced by some mind-altering item like a drug, potion, alcohol, I think it would be okay to reflect that in their EXP which would alter other stats accordingly.


Punishment from a deity, a curse from a magic-user.


If there's a valid reason, I don't see an issue with it at all.

 

[Dymdez]

What about something like this:

Player is a pious character and the objective is to sneak by a guard. Instead of doing so, they kill the guard unnecessarily. Could you subtract EXP for that? Or is this too much of a constraint? Too much of a "play the game this way instead of the way you want to play" mechanic?

 

[Alexander Amnell]

   I'd only think it acceptable if experience is superficial, like dark souls, State of Decay or Dying Light. In these games, getting experience and leveling up has  interesting perks to them, but are in the end unnecessary to progress through the game. In Dying Light and Dark souls you lose either your held, unspent experience in the case of dark souls or else a % of your survival experience in dying light, (and in state of decay death is permanent, so you not only lose all of that persons experience but him or her as well.) but all of these games can be beaten without leveling your character once throughout the course of the game depending on the skill and tenacity of the player, so while making mistakes and losing levels (or people) is a setback, it's a setback that can be overcome regardless of when it occurs.

   In contrast, in more typical rpgs such as Legend of Legaia and Dragonquest, where the player's ability to win or lose a battle is deeply dependent on their character's level and the stat increases and skills involved in those levels I'd be more hesitant of deleveling the player as a punishment for loss since the loss can result just as much from a lack of experience if not more than the skill of the player. In this scenario deleveling could create a vicious, unwinnable cycle if the developer isn't careful about how they implement it. 

Edit: on the above example, maybe have stats that effect stealth and stats that affect combat, and add and subtract them based on the player's choices. Choosing how you want to play and what stats level as a result is more fun in most cases than arbitrarily punishing players for an action you allowed them to choose. I hate when devs have a 'right' choice and a 'wrong' (unless it's really well thought out like the serial killer quest in the witcher 3) because it invalidates any reason to give the player a choice in the first place.

 

[OtakuD50]

Depends on the implementation, obviously.  I think the effectiveness is going to depend mostly upon what the role of experience is, or how it's regularly acquired.  If it's just penalties, you run the risk of them being made completely trivial due to saving and loading.

 

[Dymdez]

Depends on the implementation, obviously.  I think the effectiveness is going to depend mostly upon what the role of experience is, or how it's regularly acquired.  If it's just penalties, you run the risk of them being made completely trivial due to saving and loading.

Ahh thats a great point -- didnt think of this.

 

[Euphony]

Tales of the Abyss did something like this that I thought was pretty interesting. Jade, who's a military commander and powerful mage, starts off at a high level with all his skills learned to reflect that. Then something happens where an enemy basically curses his magical ability; his level is severely reduced and he loses most of his skills. He's then on par with the rest of the party and has to level up and learn skills like everyone else.

Also Final Fantasy 4 did something kind of similar with Tellah. He's old and dying, so when he levels up, his stats actually decrease. Again, kind of interesting, although it could be argued that after awhile it makes him really useless. xD

So yeah, I think deducting experience/weakening a character is certainly a viable option, but it should have a legit reason behind it. It should tie in with the story/character somehow, like the above examples. Otherwise the player might see it as a gimmick and be turned off.

 

[Mouser]

A lot of old MMO's and MUD's have pretty severe experience point penalties for dying (including potential level loss). It was part of the treadmill to keep you from maxing out and just staying fat. If you did something interesting with death (think Planescape:Torment) rather than a Game Over you could do something similar and have it work out ok. You just have to balance it so players don't simply reload a save negating the whole process.

 

[gstv87]

it might be a good mechanic if you have areas that are available, but are not supposed to be visited until the characters level up.

the penalty loss can be a deterrent to get the player to think "ok, maybe I'm not supposed to be here...? I better leave before I die."

 

[Ishiirou]

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[gstv87]

I dropped Makai Kingdom the instant I met the first enemy with a hammer that reduces your level on hit.

who in their right mind would allow that in a game!?

that's a totally unfair feature from a lazy developer... you can't measure all the RPGs with that ruler.

XP loss is ok as long as it is the final punishment after a risky gamble... as in, if you engage in combat you have debuff conditions first, then HP loss, then death, and with death, XP loss.

if you begin to get too much debuffs and HP loss, that's a sign to head back and stay safe.

as long as you can manage that and still want to gamble for a bigger gain, then XP loss is totally fine if you even get to that point.

You just have to balance it so players don't simply reload a save negating the whole process.

PoP Sands of Time's fairytale narrative: "No, wait... that didn't happen that way..."

and it took you back to the last checkpoint.