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That makes perfect sense! Boy, I'm glad your adding your input, you seem to understand the mechanics of it much better than me. Thanks! : )
Suikoden II style turned base battle
- Thread starter Tea's Jams
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As I said, anyway I can help to make this awesome plugin, I'm in. 
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Yes, I agree and would prefer something like that anyway, one of the reasons I love suikoden is that it's turn based, not active. (also a valid bump post : D )
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What I don't have a clue, is if MV can do that (calculating the hits, misses and damage overall without showing the animations...). ô.o
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I've been thinking, and there could be a way to do this "auto" attack... on the "vainilla" RPGMMV, when you enter combat, you have an option to "Fight" and another to "Escape", and if you select fight, then you have the different options (fight, magic, item...). But Yanfly made a plugin that changes that, and when you start a combat, you are already inside the "Fight" menu, and cancelling gets you to the "Fight-Escape" menu.
So, what I thought is: If the order of the menues can be changed (Yanfly did it), and selections can be added to the menues (I know that much because I played around the "Fight" menu, so the idea would be to add the "Auto" in the "Fight-Escape" menu, and then make it so when selected, all the chars become "berzerk" for that one round...
Of course, if we already have a "Berzerk" state, that changes attack, defense, damage or something else, we just copy that state and change it's name to "Auto" or something like that, and then, delete all the altered stats, so it's just normal attack with nothing else.
How does that sound? Is it feasible?
So, what I thought is: If the order of the menues can be changed (Yanfly did it), and selections can be added to the menues (I know that much because I played around the "Fight" menu, so the idea would be to add the "Auto" in the "Fight-Escape" menu, and then make it so when selected, all the chars become "berzerk" for that one round...
Of course, if we already have a "Berzerk" state, that changes attack, defense, damage or something else, we just copy that state and change it's name to "Auto" or something like that, and then, delete all the altered stats, so it's just normal attack with nothing else.
How does that sound? Is it feasible?
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Hmm, that is an interesting proposal indeed! You sure know how to get the old gears in this dusty brain box of mine turning!
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Glad to be of help I don't need an auto function for my current project, but it would certainly be usefull on another project.
(also, it was a valid bump).
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Thanks for the extra informations about the combat style, it will be a great help for me
I think the auto battle style isn't going to be a problem. As you said, Yanfly was able to change the battle menu design, so I can read the plugin to know how.
Mathematically speaking, calculate the turn oder won't be a problem.
The only think I won't be able to do for sure is calculate the damage before the skill resolution. RMMV don't know before executing an action if it will miss or critic. I might be able to override some RMMV code, but it will take forever, and this plugin will loose compatibility with Yanfly engin core (so will be useless I think).
I can manage this slightly differently : I can change the target if dead bewteen group of attacker.
exemple : order is 2 allies, 1 foe, 2 allies, 2 foes and every allies attack the same target
-The first ally kill the target, but the second still attack the dead target (because I don't know the damage before the action end)
-The foe attack
-the 2 allies attack a random target (at that time, I know the initial target is dead, so I can assign a random target)
I think the auto battle style isn't going to be a problem. As you said, Yanfly was able to change the battle menu design, so I can read the plugin to know how.
Mathematically speaking, calculate the turn oder won't be a problem.
The only think I won't be able to do for sure is calculate the damage before the skill resolution. RMMV don't know before executing an action if it will miss or critic. I might be able to override some RMMV code, but it will take forever, and this plugin will loose compatibility with Yanfly engin core (so will be useless I think).
I can manage this slightly differently : I can change the target if dead bewteen group of attacker.
exemple : order is 2 allies, 1 foe, 2 allies, 2 foes and every allies attack the same target
-The first ally kill the target, but the second still attack the dead target (because I don't know the damage before the action end)
-The foe attack
-the 2 allies attack a random target (at that time, I know the initial target is dead, so I can assign a random target)
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I think I know what your saying. I don't think you have to calculate the damage before the actions are run to emulate suikoden's battle style, since two allies never attack the same enemy at the same time (nor do two enemies attack the same ally at the same time) So, I'm thinking you just need a check after each players action to see if the enemy (or ally) is dead or alive, if alive, attack the intended target, if dead, switch to the living enemy with the lowest hp that isn't currently being attacked by another ally. (again, forgive me if this is naive)
Have you seen how the newest update effects plugin writing? 1.5.0 apparently gives you much broader control over what you can do, and makes customizing the parameters much easier, so the plugin can be more versatile. I don't know if this would effect your plans, but I figure it's worth mentioning.
Have you seen how the newest update effects plugin writing? 1.5.0 apparently gives you much broader control over what you can do, and makes customizing the parameters much easier, so the plugin can be more versatile. I don't know if this would effect your plans, but I figure it's worth mentioning.
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The problem with the way Anorgar plays the combat, is that it ignores completely combat initiative. That is a very big thing, specially on Suikoden. There, since you know the AGI of your chars, you know who goes first, and who goes last. It was a very good practice to give resurrection magic to your fastest, area heal to the second, and in case any of your slower (tank type) chars fell, you knew your actions would at least pick them up the next round, hopefully before your enemy cleaned the screen with your bodies.
That, without taking into account the case of faster than the chars enemies (like the ninjas around the hidden village, which were among the fastest enemies in the whole game, and usually acted before all my chars - unless I had Kasumi, whose the fastest char in the whole game, second to none). Heck, in the video Just1witness posted about the fight agaist Luca Blight you see him attacking three times on the same round (he was around AGI 100 if I don't remember wrongly). The first attack happens at his AGI, the second is his AGI - 10, and the third was around AGI - 20 (I don't play S2 since before 2010, so I might have some facts wrong). Obviously, the player that posted the video didn't know what he was up against, or didn't bother leveling up the chars beforehand, since they were poorly balanced (and he didn't use the strongest attacks available from the get go), but the fact remains, that the faster char acts first, the slowest char acts last, and initiative is important.
Anyway, the part about the "Auto" function is doable (at least, for someone who knows enough about Java and plugins), and for the second part (which was the first part at the begining of this thread), since I already explained that no chars acted "at the same time", the way RMMV works is ok as is, and the only thing we should be putting our heads to work around is a way to make the "Combo" plugin working.
On that account... I think the way S1 and S2 did that was something like this (it's just a crude example, if you need something more elaborate, I'll try to make it with an Open Office archive and post it here, ok?):
Character | Combo 1 | Combo 2 | Combo 3 _______________ Magic _____| Combo
Peter _______ 1 ________________________________________ Fire ________ X
John _________________ 2 _______________________________ Ice ________ Y
tefan ______ 1 ___ç____ 2 ______________________________ Lightning _____ X
Mary __________________________ 3 ______________________ Earth ______ Y
Lux _________ 1 ________________ 3 ______________________ Air ________ X
Joe _________________ 2
Martin _______________ 2 _______ 3
Character Combo 1 needs 2 chars to work (1 and another 1), Combo 2 needs 3 chars (1 and another 2), and Combo 3 needs all three chars to work. Instead of Magic, the letter in the combo means which magic can combo with which other magic.
So, how does this work? Let's say you take 4 char groups (like on RMMV, instead of 6 like you took on S1 or S2), and you decide to take (for example):
Stefan, Lux, Mary and Martin (you'd point their actions in that order). When you have to select the actions for Stefan, you have the normal options for him (attack, magic, item...), and 1 another, that says COMBO. In that one, you are presented (in his case), with 2 options: Combo 1 (with Lux), and Combo 2 (greyed out, since only Martin could do it and you lack one another char). If you choose Combo 1, then you have to choose the actions for Mary and Martin (their COMBO options is totally greyed from the begining, since there are no possible combos for them), so you chose Magic for Mary (she has Fire) and Magic for Martin (he has Lighting).
Now, on their respective turn (the lowest from both for Stefan and Lux, since they are in a combo), they'll play their attacks. Now, we have a Magic Combo situation, for two chars, so when the time comes for them to act, they'll play a "combo animation" for their magic, and act simultaneously. When is the turn for Stefan and Lux, they just do the animation for the attack combo that's predefined.
On their second turn, you select Magic (healing) for Stefan, and when you have to select Lux (this time you have to choose her since she's not part of a combo), you select "COMBO" and this time, you have Combo 1 greyed (since Stefan is the only one of the two possible chars to do the combo and his actions have already been selected), and Combo 3 selectable. You obviously select that one and end your turn (you can't select actions for Mary and Martin since both are acting with Lux on their combo attack).
With this, I'm trying to explain the complexity Suikoden had for Combos. Some chars had only 1 possible combo, but most had at least two possible combos (a couple of chars actually participated in up to 4 different possible combos). For more info on the different combinations for the Unite Attack in Suikoden 2, you can check this link: https://www.suikosource.com/games/gs2/guides/unites.php
The one thing that we didn't mention on ALL of this exposition is: What happens when you select a combo for any number of chars, and one enemy acting first incapacitates (confussion, sleep, KO, etc...) one of the chars... Well, for annoying as it was, as far as I remember, your other combo participants defaulted to guard and lost the turn.
I know this post is SO long, but I wanted to explain everything as best as I could in order to help. And again, if my example doesn't do the trick, I can make something better with more chars (but it will be longer too).
Cheers.
That, without taking into account the case of faster than the chars enemies (like the ninjas around the hidden village, which were among the fastest enemies in the whole game, and usually acted before all my chars - unless I had Kasumi, whose the fastest char in the whole game, second to none). Heck, in the video Just1witness posted about the fight agaist Luca Blight you see him attacking three times on the same round (he was around AGI 100 if I don't remember wrongly). The first attack happens at his AGI, the second is his AGI - 10, and the third was around AGI - 20 (I don't play S2 since before 2010, so I might have some facts wrong). Obviously, the player that posted the video didn't know what he was up against, or didn't bother leveling up the chars beforehand, since they were poorly balanced (and he didn't use the strongest attacks available from the get go), but the fact remains, that the faster char acts first, the slowest char acts last, and initiative is important.
Anyway, the part about the "Auto" function is doable (at least, for someone who knows enough about Java and plugins), and for the second part (which was the first part at the begining of this thread), since I already explained that no chars acted "at the same time", the way RMMV works is ok as is, and the only thing we should be putting our heads to work around is a way to make the "Combo" plugin working.
On that account... I think the way S1 and S2 did that was something like this (it's just a crude example, if you need something more elaborate, I'll try to make it with an Open Office archive and post it here, ok?):
Character | Combo 1 | Combo 2 | Combo 3 _______________ Magic _____| Combo
Peter _______ 1 ________________________________________ Fire ________ X
John _________________ 2 _______________________________ Ice ________ Y
tefan ______ 1 ___ç____ 2 ______________________________ Lightning _____ X
Mary __________________________ 3 ______________________ Earth ______ Y
Lux _________ 1 ________________ 3 ______________________ Air ________ X
Joe _________________ 2
Martin _______________ 2 _______ 3
Character Combo 1 needs 2 chars to work (1 and another 1), Combo 2 needs 3 chars (1 and another 2), and Combo 3 needs all three chars to work. Instead of Magic, the letter in the combo means which magic can combo with which other magic.
So, how does this work? Let's say you take 4 char groups (like on RMMV, instead of 6 like you took on S1 or S2), and you decide to take (for example):
Stefan, Lux, Mary and Martin (you'd point their actions in that order). When you have to select the actions for Stefan, you have the normal options for him (attack, magic, item...), and 1 another, that says COMBO. In that one, you are presented (in his case), with 2 options: Combo 1 (with Lux), and Combo 2 (greyed out, since only Martin could do it and you lack one another char). If you choose Combo 1, then you have to choose the actions for Mary and Martin (their COMBO options is totally greyed from the begining, since there are no possible combos for them), so you chose Magic for Mary (she has Fire) and Magic for Martin (he has Lighting).
Now, on their respective turn (the lowest from both for Stefan and Lux, since they are in a combo), they'll play their attacks. Now, we have a Magic Combo situation, for two chars, so when the time comes for them to act, they'll play a "combo animation" for their magic, and act simultaneously. When is the turn for Stefan and Lux, they just do the animation for the attack combo that's predefined.
On their second turn, you select Magic (healing) for Stefan, and when you have to select Lux (this time you have to choose her since she's not part of a combo), you select "COMBO" and this time, you have Combo 1 greyed (since Stefan is the only one of the two possible chars to do the combo and his actions have already been selected), and Combo 3 selectable. You obviously select that one and end your turn (you can't select actions for Mary and Martin since both are acting with Lux on their combo attack).
With this, I'm trying to explain the complexity Suikoden had for Combos. Some chars had only 1 possible combo, but most had at least two possible combos (a couple of chars actually participated in up to 4 different possible combos). For more info on the different combinations for the Unite Attack in Suikoden 2, you can check this link: https://www.suikosource.com/games/gs2/guides/unites.php
The one thing that we didn't mention on ALL of this exposition is: What happens when you select a combo for any number of chars, and one enemy acting first incapacitates (confussion, sleep, KO, etc...) one of the chars... Well, for annoying as it was, as far as I remember, your other combo participants defaulted to guard and lost the turn.
I know this post is SO long, but I wanted to explain everything as best as I could in order to help. And again, if my example doesn't do the trick, I can make something better with more chars (but it will be longer too).
Cheers.
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So... no comments on my last (big) post?
Also, bump.
Also, bump.
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Nah. I'm not overly concerned with the combo aspect myself. It would be cool, but it's not actually what I'm looking for. What I really hope to achieve is the fast dynamic battle order and auto.
Plus I'm hearing battle plugins are hard and take time, so since @Anorgar is giving it a go, I don't want to pester him.
I'm really impressed with your knowledge on the specs. Did you learn it from one of those fabulous books that used to come out for pretty much every rpg (walkthrough+)?
Plus I'm hearing battle plugins are hard and take time, so since @Anorgar is giving it a go, I don't want to pester him.
I'm really impressed with your knowledge on the specs. Did you learn it from one of those fabulous books that used to come out for pretty much every rpg (walkthrough+)?
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Actually, no. Those didn't exist "down here" in Argentina. It was mostly observation, and savefile coding (since I used epsxe on the computer, the save was just a file that could be accesed with a hex-editor). It was weeks of tampering with those numbers in order to learn what they could do, using a guide someone posted somewhere back in the day (I'm talking back then when we used 14.4 telephone modems in order to "surf" the web).
I could give any char any rune, alter how many times they could use each level of power, how much damage they could do, both with physical and magical attacks... heck, I could even change their names.
I also could change the in-game time, gold, xp, level, equipment, inventory... adding chars to the rooster, to the party, any and all stats. Playing around with those confirmed what I already saw in several gameplays: the way stats affect each instance and situation.
So, basically, it was checking a guide for the hex codes for a real PlayStation save, and find those codes in the emulated save (the positions differ a lot).
I could give any char any rune, alter how many times they could use each level of power, how much damage they could do, both with physical and magical attacks... heck, I could even change their names.
I also could change the in-game time, gold, xp, level, equipment, inventory... adding chars to the rooster, to the party, any and all stats. Playing around with those confirmed what I already saw in several gameplays: the way stats affect each instance and situation.
So, basically, it was checking a guide for the hex codes for a real PlayStation save, and find those codes in the emulated save (the positions differ a lot).
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That makes sense. I only ever played it on the PS console. Customize-able Suikoden sounds too good to be true! Haha!
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My first two times were on the console (a friend lent his to me for a year). During that year, I played FFV (mine), FFVII, MGS, Diablo, FFT, Suikoden 2 (mine), Parasite Eve and a couple more (he lent me a whole lot of games).
After I returned the console, I started using the emulator on my PC, since consoles "down here" are pretty expensive. After playing the game full once more, I delved in the "mysterious ways of the Hex (editor)".
After I returned the console, I started using the emulator on my PC, since consoles "down here" are pretty expensive. After playing the game full once more, I delved in the "mysterious ways of the Hex (editor)".
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wow, it's been a while since any of us came here to bump it up.
Hope you guys are ok, and your projects are coming around well too.
Hope you guys are ok, and your projects are coming around well too.
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Thank you, yes I am well(I hope you are too!).
I've endeavored as of late to learn JavaScript and am 120+ hours into a certification course so far. Hopefully soon, I can offer a more meaningful contribution! : D
I've endeavored as of late to learn JavaScript and am 120+ hours into a certification course so far. Hopefully soon, I can offer a more meaningful contribution! : D
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... ganbate kudasai
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Will do, thanks!
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Hey guys, long time no talk.
How are you doing? how is the plugin comming around?
How are you doing? how is the plugin comming around?
