Superbosses

[Qeo]

What does everyone think of superbosses?

[for anyone who doesn't know what I mean: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BonusBoss?from=Main.SuperBoss ]

I personally would never use them in my game because it makes the final boss seem weaker.

No superboss I have ever seen even get their own music, they just use the normal boss music... Doesn't really get you in the mood for fighting something that is supposedly more powerful than the final boss.

What does everyone else think?

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Haha! I am not fond of having outside bosses overworldy powerful, that is why I make my game have a 2 last bosses (Depending on your karma) and 1 True Last Boss (depends the choices you make, Karma doesn't matter).

The 2 last bosses will be equally powerful in par with each other but the True Last Boss would be powerful like a super boss, that is what I enjoy, different ending and one true ending with a epic battle.

 

[Mon Dez]

I usually enjoy Super Bosses after beating the final boss because it unlocks a further challenge beyond the final boss, but of course you have the right on making a stronger version of the final boss after beating him the first time to be on par with the super bosses after completing the game.

I made all the bosses in my game feel like Super Bosses even though they are regular bosses because I like ensuring the challenge at all levels to give the player a right amount of challenge. *Note* Always have a nerf stick ready.

 

[Dalph]

The final boss is the final challenge of the game to the player, the fight against it is usually hard but shouldn't require a lot of grinding at all.

The superboss is a particular enemy, whose encounter is totally optional, and whose power far exceeds that of the final boss. 

This boss is usually very powerful and takes heavy workouts and a set of statistics to the maximum, representing in some way the true "ultimate challenge" of the player.

-

A superboss is a must to me, the best Rpg games have it, and since I'm a freakin' completist and I love real challenges, I cannot resist in adding one in every single one my games. 

The satisfaction that you can prove after defeating a super boss has no equals, adding it also makes the game less linear.

No superboss I have ever seen even get their own music, they just use the normal boss music... Doesn't really get you in the mood for fighting something that is supposedly more powerful than the final boss.

Penance from FFX has his own battle music, also some of the superbosses in the Wild Arms series (Boomerang Flash for example), or Sephiroth in KH, there are a lot of them with their own battle music.

 

[Chaos Avian]

Etrian Odyssey 1, 2, 3 and 4 have Super Bosses (oh god EO2 super bosses...) They get their own music and proceed to rape your face xD but anyway beating the dragon super bosses (at least in EO3 and 4), increases the level cap by 10 so beating all 3 means you can attain Lv99 rather than being capped at Lv70.

So yeah, super bosses are pretty cool, especially if you can add a story behind it. I guess Red from Pokemon G/S/C and HG/SS can be considered a Super Boss and beating him (at least in HG/SS) means you can choose one of the 3 Kanto starters from Oak, and also one of the Hoenn starters from Steven.

 

[zacheatscrackers]

Superbosses are AWESOME if done well, but if you just take a previous boss and up the stats a bit, that doesn't really mean much.

 

[kerbonklin]

I definitely support optional superbosses for all the reasons already discussed. It's a reward for grinding/getting the best gears/completionist and putting them (and the player) to the ultimate test.

 

[Qeo]

There seems to be a lot of talk of grinding in this topic... I won't rant about grinding here since that's nothing to do with this thread, but let's just say that's a point against superbosses for me.

I'm not really one who plays a game after the end credits. Stopping playing right there for me feels great, kind of like watching an awesome movie.

But if I were to load up my old save file and find some superboss who doesn't look that interesting or have his own battle theme [i know there's -some- that do] then beat him... it just feels empty. Even if it looked awesome and had its own great music, it's not going to feel the same as beating the final boss. There won't be an ending or credits.

Final bosses should be the ultimate challenge in my opinion

 

[Probotector 200X]

I loooove optional superbosses! Especially when you can fight them over and over again.

This is how feel about superbosses being stronger than the final boss. The final boss is typically the main antagonist, or summoned by the main antagonist, or something to that effect. That doesn't mean they have to be the strongest thing in the game at all. They are just the strongest obstacle you must overcome. Optional superbosses range from ancient sealed monsters that are more powerful, but sealed and ignored, thus irrelevant to the plot; to some random NPC who happens to be a superpowered opponent in battle.

Also, I love postgame content, because when I get near the end of an RPG story, I don't want to finish, because then I'll be done, and move on...I always put it off, but not if there's postgame content! That gets me to beat the game much quicker, because I know there's a little bonus afterwards, an extra challenge.

Optional superbosses should have their own unique battle theme, and they should give you something cool. It doesn't have to be useful, just cool or fun. Maybe even a secret character? I don't know. Most games seem to be one or the other. Like the optional superbosses have normal battle music, not even boss music, but they give you really cool stuff. Or they have their own theme song, but then just give you nothing or something bland, like a slightly stronger weapon with no special effects in a game where all equipment looks the same.

This is one of the things I make RPGs for. Something I never see done "just right", so, I figure I gotta try it myself.

 

[Qeo]

Superbosses that have the NORMAL battle music? Wow, that's even worse.

To me, the best way about going with superbosses is have some hidden superboss with a song just as awesome as the final boss or more awesome, and make it look just as cool or more so. But maybe after gaining a certain item in that battle, defeating the final boss again but quickly could allow you to face the "True final boss" - and defeating that could give you a secret ending.

That being said, I play RPG's for the story. I take it very seriously and get into it - while I do have optional bosses that can be difficult in my games they're not going to be as powerful as the final boss. In my first two games the final bosses can be defeated easily if you have done all the sidequests for the ultimate weapons [NO grinding, I max the level at 50 so my games aren't for grinding fetishists] but the final boss in the last game in the trilogy actually will require the ultimate weapons/armor.

 

[Dalph]

Rpgs without superbosses are boring and too straightforward, and what's the point of making superbosses optional if they aren't uber-powerful?

If you don't make them stronger than the final boss, the whole concept of adding them is pointless.

The final boss is the last challenge of the regular storyline (for normal players that wants only to follow the story), superbosses instead are for veterans and completist players that wants a real challenge.

FF games weren't the same as they are now without superbosses.

 

[ThatMaestroGuy]

I never liked the concept of Super Bosses, myself. My first encounter with one was in Super Mario RPG (Culex), and though the battle was fierce, I still felt the final boss was more difficult (much to many others' disagreement). But I'm a tremendously story-driven player...so if I run into something that is MORE POWERFUL than the final boss of the game, the trouble-maker who has been dishing out all of this turmoil and conflict, the being my party has been trying to stop from the beginning of the game (or any great length of time in between), then I'm a little unhappy. More or less, I feel that if this Super Boss truly is as powerful as it is, if it really wanted to, it could absolutely wreck the final boss of the game, and I feel that is a poor choice in regards to the story already set in stone in the game world.

Just my two cents.

 

[kerbonklin]

But if you're blasting through the main storyline and end up finding/fighting an optional superboss, and then complain about the last boss being not as difficult, then why did you stray from the main storyline in the first place?  Because barely any game i've ever seen or played decided to shove an optional superboss or dungeon in the player's face while they followed the main story. They're usually just hidden somewhere and hinted by random NPCs. You kind of ruined it for yourself if you didn't want that kind of experience.

 

[ThatMaestroGuy]

But if you're blasting through the main storyline and end up finding/fighting an optional superboss, and then complain about the last boss being not as difficult, then why did you stray from the main storyline in the first place?  Because barely any game i've ever seen or played decided to shove an optional superboss or dungeon in the player's face while they followed the main story. They're usually just hidden somewhere and hinted by random NPCs. You kind of ruined it for yourself if you didn't want that kind of experience.

You misunderstand.

For example, as mentioned above with Super Mario RPG and its Super Boss, Culex, I didn't actively go looking for Culex. I accidentally ran into him after I beat the game because I knew there were still some things I probably missed...and because people had told me there was another boss in the game that was harder than its final boss. My gripe, again, is the very notion of including a being that is more powerful than the game's final boss, especially because they're usually just thrown in somewhere without much of a build-up in terms of an actual story. In Culex's case, he simply stated that he swung by, found his kind didn't belong in the world, and decided he wanted to leave...not before fighting the world's most powerful fighter(s).

Regardless, exploring the game's world for the heck of it, or "straying" as you put it, away from the main storyline doesn't excuse the fact that there is still something more powerful, deadly, and potentially world-changing out there, other than the game's final boss--players are likely to go exploring, anyway. It's what players do. Just because a player needs to go looking for the Super Boss doesn't mean it's okay for it to exist in the same realm...especially if it has a weak background story behind it that leaves much to be desired in terms of an explanation as to WHY this Super Boss is so powerful (MORE powerful than what your party has been campaigning against for the vast majority of the story) in the first place. Again, I'm very story-driven.

Do you see what I mean here? Where I'm going with this?

 

[amerk]

Why does it matter if a Super Boss is more powerful than the final villain or not? Sure, if you the Super Boss wanted to, they could rip the final villain with no problem at all. However, most Super Bosses don't give a rat's end of a monkey's ass what the primary villain is doing, so of course they're not going to go out and stop them; but neither are they going to protect them either.

For example, a Super Boss dragon hiding in an optional cave probably just wants to sleep. The player chooses this dungeon because of a super weapon, skill, item, etc., the dragon is probably guarding. That dragon isn't a threat to the final villain, and it wouldn't have been a threat to you had you chose not to go looting its cavern. In Culex's case, why would he care about what was going on in Bowser's Castle?

However, this does give me something to think about. What about a game where you can choose to fight the optional uber boss or not. If you don't, you play the normal game as is, and wind up facing off with a semi-difficult final villain. But if you do fight the super boss, you can get him to join your cause, and right before you fight the final villain, have him show up and stomp the villain in one quick swoop. Would gamer's feel cheated if that were to happen?

 

[Zoltor]

Why does it matter if a Super Boss is more powerful than the final villain or not? Sure, if you the Super Boss wanted to, they could rip the final villain with no problem at all. However, most Super Bosses don't give a rat's end of a monkey's ass what the primary villain is doing, so of course they're not going to go out and stop them; but neither are they going to protect them either.

For example, a Super Boss dragon hiding in an optional cave probably just wants to sleep. The player chooses this dungeon because of a super weapon, skill, item, etc., the dragon is probably guarding. That dragon isn't a threat to the final villain, and it wouldn't have been a threat to you had you chose not to go looting its cavern. In Culex's case, why would he care about what was going on in Bowser's Castle?

However, this does give me something to think about. What about a game where you can choose to fight the optional uber boss or not. If you don't, you play the normal game as is, and wind up facing off with a semi-difficult final villain. But if you do fight the super boss, you can get him to join your cause, and right before you fight the final villain, have him show up and stomp the villain in one quick swoop. Would gamer's feel cheated if that were to happen?

Exactly, people are just acting weird in this thread.

Your last point is good or bad depending how you look at it. You can have the main story exactly the same, except the ending, and depending on what you do, you'll get the harder boss fight/better ending or you'll get the normal ending.

The trick is to make both ending good, but have the secret ending even better, which is a fine line to walk.

 

[Qeo]

I never liked the concept of Super Bosses, myself. My first encounter with one was in Super Mario RPG (Culex), and though the battle was fierce, I still felt the final boss was more difficult (much to many others' disagreement). But I'm a tremendously story-driven player...so if I run into something that is MORE POWERFUL than the final boss of the game, the trouble-maker who has been dishing out all of this turmoil and conflict, the being my party has been trying to stop from the beginning of the game (or any great length of time in between), then I'm a little unhappy. More or less, I feel that if this Super Boss truly is as powerful as it is, if it really wanted to, it could absolutely wreck the final boss of the game, and I feel that is a poor choice in regards to the story already set in stone in the game world.

Just my two cents.

Finally someone who agrees with me.

Wasn't expecting so many responses.

Amerk... It doesn't matter whether the optional boss wants to kill the final boss or not. It's the fact that there is something out there that is stronger than the final boss, which should be the most intimidating force in that games world by far. It weakens the story.

Zoltor... "People are just acting weird in this thread." Because I have a different opinion I'm acting weird?

 

[amerk]

Amerk... It doesn't matter whether the optional boss wants to kill the final boss or not. It's the fact that there is something out there that is stronger than the final boss, which should be the most intimidating force in that games world by far. It weakens the story.

Optional bosses (aka Super Bosses) = Optional Content.

Optional Content very seldom has anything to do with the story, and it's optional for a reason. You don't have to complete it.

I'm not sure what the deal is. If you feel it hurts the story, don't play through the optional content. It's not there for people who prefer linear storylines with little to no additional content. It's there for completionist and people like me who wish to feel like a bad ass when we complete the game.

I've heard a lot of absurd things in this community over the past several months:

People who don't like battles and think they should be removed from all rpg's.

People who don't think rpg;s should require a level up feature.

People who wish to punish gamers for saving.

People who think a person should be able to skip all battles and still be able to pummel the end boss.

People who feel story and cut scenes should be minimal.

And now: People who think Super Bosses should be removed because it might effect the story.

Seriously, these are rpg's. They are rpg's for a reason. They follow a certain mold of exploration, battle, leveling up, stat upgrades, combat (action or turn based), additional content, story, etc. Games like Final Fantasy (before 13), games like Dragon Quest, Lunar, Lufia, Breath of Fire, Wild Arms, and so on.

If people have a problem with these things, they're better off reading a book or watching a movie.

 

[Zoltor]

Finally someone who agrees with me.

Wasn't expecting so many responses.

Amerk... It doesn't matter whether the optional boss wants to kill the final boss or not. It's the fact that there is something out there that is stronger than the final boss, which should be the most intimidating force in that games world by far. It weakens the story.

Zoltor... "People are just acting weird in this thread." Because I have a different opinion I'm acting weird?

No, It's why the hell does it even matter one bit, that the final boss Isn't technically the strongest enemy in a game. Only an arrogant scumbag thinks there's only one guy out there, and because he's the one after you or whatnot, he must be the strongest.

Lmaio, It's like america acting like the world should bow down to them, and all people who take part in a terrorist act, "must be part of alkada." Give me a damn break, stop being full of your selves, and except just because you're focused on a certain enemy, it doesn't mean they're/they must be the strongest boss or enemy in the world.

PS. Lol that's a funny filter this forum has.

 

[Qeo]

No, It's why the hell does it even matter one bit, that the final boss Isn't technically the strongest enemy in a game. Only an arrogant scumbag thinks there's only one guy out there, and because he's the one after you or whatnot, he must be the strongest.

Lmaio, It's like america acting like the world should bow down to them, and all people who take part in a terrorist act, "must be part of alkada." Give me a damn break, stop being full of your selves, and except just because you're focused on a certain enemy, it doesn't mean they're/they must be the strongest boss or enemy in the world.

PS. Lol that's a funny filter this forum has.

If it doesn't matter to you, then fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But are you calling me an arrogant scumbag for mine?

"Lmaio, It's like america acting like the world should bow down to them, and all people who take part in a terrorist act, "must be part of alkada."

...What? No, it isn't like that at all. I'm full of myself for wanting to have a boss stronger than anything else to make the battle more dramatic and interesting?

I've already made myself clear enough and if you can't understand or try to have a respectful discussion then I can't help you.