Superbosses

[Qeo]

Ksi - Often a final boss IS the eldritch horror.

Amerk - "I think I see the problem people have. The final villain wants to conquer the world, so therefore he should be the hardest foe. Right?"

To me it's not about what he/she/it wants, it's because it's the final battle before the end.

"In fact, I find it more absurd that none of the kingdom's finest soldiers can do anything to the villain, but your hero who comes from the backwoods hills of a hick village and has never lifted a sword in his life can suddenly rise to the challenge and come out victorious. I find that to weaken a story far more than some optional Super Boss."

You make it sound as though he immediately fights the villain after leaving the town. He gains strength by going on a journey that none of those soldiers have gone on. He/she starts out weak and ends up like a superhero. I personally like that.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

If you don't like them, don't do them.

Saying things like "Having them at all ruins the story and I don't want them to exist" is basically saying: Not only do I not want to do them, I want to take them away from all the people who DO enjoy them.

Its an inherently selfish idea. If you don't like them, don't do them. The rest of us get our toys to play with, you get your toys to play with in the main story.

 

[Qeo]

If you don't like them, don't do them.

Saying things like "Having them at all ruins the story and I don't want them to exist" is basically saying: Not only do I not want to do them, I want to take them away from all the people who DO enjoy them.

Its an inherently selfish idea. If you don't like them, don't do them. The rest of us get our toys to play with, you get your toys to play with in the main story.

From a gameplay perspective, superbosses make sense.

Exploration is fun. Finding secrets is fun. Finding a secret boss is fun - but if that boss was just a regular or slightly hard boss it wouldn't really be as interesting finding it, would it?

If that secret boss is a superboss, you can get your ultimate challenge. It's for "hardcore" players instead of those who just want to get to the ending. And if the final boss was that difficult a lot of people wouldn't see that.

From a story perspective, it doesn't make sense. Imagine reading a book or watching a movie and you hear of some being far more powerful than the main villain but... it doesn't do anything. Of course, that being would serve absolutely no purpose in the story and at least in a game there's a challenging battle to be had.

But it annoys me just as much if it's in a game. When I play an RPG I get lost in its story, and knowing there's a superboss just takes me out of its world. It can be ignored but only to an extent, and it just weakens it for me.

Am I selfish for suggesting that not every rpg needs a superboss? I never said "No games should have superbosses because I don't like them.".

This thread seems to have a lot of superboss fans it seems, though I have seen others in similar threads on other sites who share my view,

Let's see... The only games I can think of that don't have superbosses is the suikoden series. Anyone know of any others?

 

[Ksi]

Except that it does make sense that there'd be more than just one super-powered being out there because when is there ever only one thing going wrong? It's up to the creator of that game to make the superboss make sense. Like with FF7 - that made complete sense. The planet had its own defense mechanism which was tripped when meteor was activated. They initially went after Sephiroth but could not get past the barrier, so then roamed the world instead, probably at a loss for what to do and trying to find other disturbances to the life stream - hence Midgar being attacked - to destroy.

FF8 had dat Weapon which was kept in a locked bunker underneath a deep sea research centre. It only woke when you went in and unlocked it, then straight away attacked. Makes sense to me that some time in the past the researches 'dug too deep' and uncovered a sleeping behemoth, only to lock it away in the hopes of it never reaching the surface.

FF6 had the dragons and Ultima Weapon - which again made sense in that the world was destroyed and these beings who had been sleeping were roused and headed to the world above to cause chaos now that they were free. They're practically showing all that is wrong with the world and a by-product of the destruction Kefka wreaked. Makes sense to me.

When creating a story you don't just stop at 20 years back with history. If you do it right there will be legends and myths telling of monsters that haunt the minds of men. Think of our own world - dragons, the Midgard Serpent, demons... and so many more great beings of chaos that, if this world were a fantasy game, would be made real. Monsters would be the animals around us. There would be an influx of superbosses - there are so many legends and myths throughout all the history of this earth. Kinda scary to think about, actually.

 

[Qeo]

Except that it does make sense that there'd be more than just one super-powered being out there because when is there ever only one thing going wrong? It's up to the creator of that game to make the superboss make sense. Like with FF7 - that made complete sense. The planet had its own defense mechanism which was tripped when meteor was activated. They initially went after Sephiroth but could not get past the barrier, so then roamed the world instead, probably at a loss for what to do and trying to find other disturbances to the life stream - hence Midgar being attacked - to destroy.

FF8 had dat Weapon which was kept in a locked bunker underneath a deep sea research centre. It only woke when you went in and unlocked it, then straight away attacked. Makes sense to me that some time in the past the researches 'dug too deep' and uncovered a sleeping behemoth, only to lock it away in the hopes of it never reaching the surface.

FF6 had the dragons and Ultima Weapon - which again made sense in that the world was destroyed and these beings who had been sleeping were roused and headed to the world above to cause chaos now that they were free. They're practically showing all that is wrong with the world and a by-product of the destruction Kefka wreaked. Makes sense to me.

When creating a story you don't just stop at 20 years back with history. If you do it right there will be legends and myths telling of monsters that haunt the minds of men. Think of our own world - dragons, the Midgard Serpent, demons... and so many more great beings of chaos that, if this world were a fantasy game, would be made real. Monsters would be the animals around us. There would be an influx of superbosses - there are so many legends and myths throughout all the history of this earth. Kinda scary to think about, actually.

As I've said about the FF7 Weapons... I don't feel that robots made from the planet should be stronger than a god that can bring the sun to earth to kill you.

Of course, storywise Sephiroth can't REALLY do that otherwise he wouldn't be bothering with this meteor.

That's another thing that bothers me... http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

I don't think they're making the superbosses impressive enough. Stronger looking than your average boss battle, yes, but since you're dealing with gods and godesses by the end of final fantasy games, they're pretty lacking.

"When creating a story you don't just stop at 20 years back with history. If you do it right there will be legends and myths telling of monsters that haunt the minds of men. Think of our own world - dragons, the Midgard Serpent, demons... and so many more great beings of chaos that, if this world were a fantasy game, would be made real. Monsters would be the animals around us. There would be an influx of superbosses - there are so many legends and myths throughout all the history of this earth. Kinda scary to think about, actually."

If the world was like an RPG I'd kind of find it hard to believe there's a stronger force just chilling while something weaker than it is trying to destroy the planet it's living on.

Most superbosses aren't on another planet/dimension, they're on the same planet just hanging around while the villain tries to destroy everything.

 

[Ksi]

All in all Sephiroth was still a man - he could not gain perfection because he was, inherently, imperfect. Thus, while he had the disposition of a god at the end of the game, he did not, in fact, have the invulnerability and complete power of a god. Hence the end of game showdown between he and Cloud - the failure destroying that which was assumed untouchable.

Deeper meanings, yo~ ;p

Most superbosses probably don't feel the need to kill ****. They've had their powers for a long time and probably exercised them in the past - thus the legends. They probably are just sleeping until something disrupts their rest or someone comes to challenge them to prove themselves worthy. Some do go the destruction route, some are locked away, some just lie in wait - maybe those ones just have their own plans like with the Midgard serpent, waiting for Ragnorok. Who knows? Those greater beings most likely don't think like humans do. Hello hibernation. Why should the petty squabbles of men bother them? Until something happens that makes them take notice (FF6 and the breaking of the world or FF9 and being challenged by the heroes) they probably are content to slumber. I imagine watching humans gets boring after a few thousand years. Watch one reality TV show and you've basically seen them all. XD

 

[AcosmicDevi]

I like the idea of superbosses. There was one RPG I played where if you beat the superboss, it granted you one of its powers. In a couple of the Final Fantasy games, you are able to summon superbosses to your aid if you beat them.

Having superbosses actually mimics real life. There is always going to be someone out there who is stronger and more powerful than the enemy you're chasing. But, as someone pointed out earlier, their motivations may be different than the final boss. In RPGs it's typically a "if you don't bother me, I won't bother you" type of deal. Unless you're required to fight superbosses, I don't see how they would take away from the story.

@Ksi - Great points and you just provided me with some inspiration with my game, which is always awesome.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Actually, the Final Fantasy VII Weapons make the most sense out of almost every one of the superbosses ever included in video games. The truth of the matter is that... they weren't that bright. they had a purpose, but they couldn't complete it because of the barrier. The only reason the barrier was taken down was due to a massive massive bit of human technology blasting a hole in it. (And keep in mind, that same gun also killed two of the Weapons (Sapphire Weapon at Junon, Diamond Weapon as it approached Midgar). I'm pretty sure if they could have shot it directly at Sephiroth, it would have taken him out, too, but he had human intelligence and didn't put his head in front of its barrel (Sapphire Weapon is a moron).

They aren't SMART. They aren't villains they are effectively large beasts with instincts that they can't fulfill who just attack whatever runs into them. They were trying to stop Sephiroth, but couldn't because they weren't smart enough, not because they weren't POWERFUL enough. Releasing Holy would probably make them unnecessary, so they would go inactive again, so in reality, fighting them isn't probably necessary in the story, because taking care of Sephiroth and releasing Holy gets rid of them anyway.

So story wise, the Weapons make TONS of sense.

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Actually, the Final Fantasy VII Weapons make the most sense out of almost every one of the superbosses ever included in video games. The truth of the matter is that... they weren't that bright. they had a purpose, but they couldn't complete it because of the barrier. The only reason the barrier was taken down was due to a massive massive bit of human technology blasting a hole in it. (And keep in mind, that same gun also killed two of the Weapons (Sapphire Weapon at Junon, Diamond Weapon as it approached Midgar). I'm pretty sure if they could have shot it directly at Sephiroth, it would have taken him out, too, but he had human intelligence and didn't put his head in front of its barrel (Sapphire Weapon is a moron).

They aren't SMART. They aren't villains they are effectively large beasts with instincts that they can't fulfill who just attack whatever runs into them. They were trying to stop Sephiroth, but couldn't because they weren't smart enough, not because they weren't POWERFUL enough. Releasing Holy would probably make them unnecessary, so they would go inactive again, so in reality, fighting them isn't probably necessary in the story, because taking care of Sephiroth and releasing Holy gets rid of them anyway.

So story wise, the Weapons make TONS of sense.

Well, if I was an ancient being sleeping for so many of years, I wouldn't know what the hell a cannon was either XD

Sapphire wasn't completely stupid, it just didn't know what the Junon cannon was and ergo was underestimating human weaponry.

Diamond however sensed the danger of the Sister Ray but by instinct it tried to stop it by firing back at it (even had a chance to  move out of the way) but it didn't move because it did not fully understand modern technologies functions.

I do agree solely that Weapons as Super Bosses had huge meaning in the story which was awesome, they even added the Final Weapon in Dirge of Cerberus which was called Omega Weapon (A weapon which acts as a Noah's Ark when the planet feels very threatened and thinks all existence aren't returning to the Lifestream.), I would prefer that games that has Super Bosses should have a back story behind the Super Bosses so they have their place in the game.

 

[amerk]

From a story perspective, it doesn't make sense. Imagine reading a book or watching a movie and you hear of some being far more powerful than the main villain but... it doesn't do anything. Of course, that being would serve absolutely no purpose in the story and at least in a game there's a challenging battle to be had.

Lord of the Rings - The Dark Lord Sauron is the primary antagonist. However, due to his current state, he couldn't do a whole lot other than to greatly influence everybody else around him. By strength alone, there were others who were much more powerful and threatened immediate defeat. However, Sauron still held much power with his magic and influence.

Star Wars: Return of the Jedi - Emperor Palpatine is the most powerful antagonist, and yet Luke could best Darth Vader but not take Palpatine down. He was defeated by repentent Darth Vader who lifted him up and tossed him into the power converter (or whatever it's called).

Dragonlance Series - It seems every series has a forbiddable opponent. Takhisis was probably one of the most powerful and destructive, but I'd hesitate to call her the most powerful.

Now given, most of these optional villains have a part to play in the story. However, the difference between a movie or book and a game is just that. One is game, the other is not. You can't have the hero in a movie go against optional bosses and quests just for fun, because it would drag on the movie and make it awkward. Likewise, you can't just eliminate the things that makes an rpg fun and expect it to be a movie, because then you'd have Final Fantasy XIII.

If you want to bash against Super Bosses for ruining the story, then you may as well remove chests in forests, or inns that heal wounds, or fighting slimes to gain gold, or entering houses without being asked, because none of that is realistic and would look silly in a movie or book. I mean, seriously, imagine reading something like this:

Erdrick, the Dragon Quest hero, entered the town and looked around. He was in pain, losing blood, and he only had a small handle of coins. He thought about visiting a hospital, but no, there was none to be found.

"Thy wounds are great, oh mighty hero. Does thou wish to spend a night at the inn?" A pretty maiden inquired.

"Yes, on your honor, allow me to sleep my wounds away!"

Like magic, a surge of great power rose within Erdrick. It could have been the plump pillow on which he lay his head, or it could have been the long restful night of sleep he received. Whatever it was, it instantly healed his wounds, cured his poison infliction, and gave him a second lot on life (or was it the third, or fourth?).

"Thank you, fine maiden!" Erdrick declared. "And to show my appreciation, I'm now going to raid your cupboards and cellar for potions, gold, and whatever else I can steal!"

 

[Qeo]

Lord of the Rings - The Dark Lord Sauron is the primary antagonist. However, due to his current state, he couldn't do a whole lot other than to greatly influence everybody else around him. By strength alone, there were others who were much more powerful and threatened immediate defeat. However, Sauron still held much power with his magic and influence.

Star Wars: Return of the Jedi - Emperor Palpatine is the most powerful antagonist, and yet Luke could best Darth Vader but not take Palpatine down. He was defeated by repentent Darth Vader who lifted him up and tossed him into the power converter (or whatever it's called).

Dragonlance Series - It seems every series has a forbiddable opponent. Takhisis was probably one of the most powerful and destructive, but I'd hesitate to call her the most powerful.

Now given, most of these optional villains have a part to play in the story. However, the difference between a movie or book and a game is just that. One is game, the other is not. You can't have the hero in a movie go against optional bosses and quests just for fun, because it would drag on the movie and make it awkward. Likewise, you can't just eliminate the things that makes an rpg fun and expect it to be a movie, because then you'd have Final Fantasy XIII.

If you want to bash against Super Bosses for ruining the story, then you may as well remove chests in forests, or inns that heal wounds, or fighting slimes to gain gold, or entering houses without being asked, because none of that is realistic and would look silly in a movie or book. I mean, seriously, imagine reading something like this:

Erdrick, the Dragon Quest hero, entered the town and looked around. He was in pain, losing blood, and he only had a small handle of coins. He thought about visiting a hospital, but no, there was none to be found.

"Thy wounds are great, oh mighty hero. Does thou wish to spend a night at the inn?" A pretty maiden inquired.

"Yes, on your honor, allow me to sleep my wounds away!"

Like magic, a surge of great power rose within Erdrick. It could have been the plump pillow on which he lay his head, or it could have been the long restful night of sleep he received. Whatever it was, it instantly healed his wounds, cured his poison infliction, and gave him a second lot on life (or was it the third, or fourth?).

"Thank you, fine maiden!" Erdrick declared. "And to show my appreciation, I'm now going to raid your cupboards and cellar for potions, gold, and whatever else I can steal!"

The treasure boxes in forests, sleeping to heal, gaining gold from slimes and going into houses and stealing everything doesn't break my suspension of disbelief like superbosses.

The worst ones are the ones you can easily run into accidentally before facing the final boss. FF7 is an example of this. Imagine getting your ass kicked by Emerald or Ruby weapon then going to face Sephiroth... You'd think if you can't even beat those guys there's no way you can beat Sephiroth, but you beat him and it's awkward and confusing.

I've been talking about FF7 and the weapons too much now, I think that'll be my last comment about that... hopefully.

 

[Milennin]

Golden Sun had Dullahan as its superboss. He wasn't required to beat, and was more powerful than the story's final boss. But if you did beat him you'd unlock the strongest Djinn summon in the game (Iris). I think the concept of a super boss works well in a regular RPG, but in an RPG Maker RPG not so much, as people are less often willing to spend time grinding in an amateur's game.

I intend on having some sort of superboss in my own game near the end, but I'll make sure it's beatable without having to grind. it'll just be more challenging than the regular content at that level. It might end up being stronger than the game's final boss, which works fine lore-wise.

 

[DoubleX]

I've an idea that might make fighting superbosses completely optional yet actually making sense and reinforcing the story.

An antagonist(also the final boss, I abbreviate it as F is powerful and has many minions. He aims to be as powerful as possible at all cost and he also wants to prove how powerful he is.He feels that the only way to prove is to firmly control the whole world and eliminate any opposition via raw power(such as total destruction). He and some of his minions creates an extremely powerful prototype(with mass production if it's successful) with the state of the art equipments, knowledge, abilities, AI(aiming to assist its user in order to make it as powerful as possible and it's still supposed to be controlled by its user) and some other technologies and he thought it's under his control, but it turns out that it's actually more powerful than him and he can't control it due to its overpowered AI(due to his arrogance and mistakes made in creating it). As it posed him a serious threat and he can't defeat it(or will be too badly injured and lose too many minions even it he can), he decides to halt the project and seal it temporarily, although still losing some minions in the progress. That prototype can't break the seal even though it's more powerful than the FB.

However, the FB insists that he can control that prototype eventually if he's powerful enough(or if he can finally write and finish a program that forces the AI of that prototype to obey its user), and if he can really control it, the world will be over instantly. Of course, the threat posed by the FB is still too large to be ignored even if he can't.

Knowing all these, the protagonists can either defeat the FB and let that prototype superboss to be sealed forever, or break the seal and defeat that prototype superboss, gaining extra power, information or other bonuses before facing the FB himself. Of course the seal has to be well hidden and the FB has to believe that no one can break the seal without him and he won't even check it before he decides to break it with himself(and it won't trigger an alarm if it's broken), or a plot hole will probably exist.

And if the protagonists break the seal but didn't defeat that prototype, it may defeat the FB itself but it may also become an even bigger fear than the FB, even though that prototype may not have such agendas.

Or if the protagonists managed to write and use a program to force the AI of that prototype to obey them(but they still need to fight it), causing it effectively under their control, they can even use it to fight the FB.

Maybe the protagonists can even break the seal and defeat that prototype after the defeating FB and probably also watching the end game credits, and players can treat this superboss as a post game bonus.

Now that prototype superboss is optional but more powerful than the FB and its battle is also more difficult than that of the FB, yet the existence of that prototype actually reinforces the story, by at least the below ways:

As the main objective of the protagonists is to neutralize the threat posed by the FB and defeating that prototype erases the current known worse case(the FB can finally control and release that prototype and the world is instantly over), defeating it is related to the main objective even though it's not the only way and it's supposed to be the optional and hardcore way(and that prototype may serve good or bad purposes later if it will ever be released by the others).

If defeating that prototype yield bonuses like extremely powerful moves, items, equips or extremely useful information like a FB's weakness that prototype couldn't exploit itself but can be exploited by the protagonists, defeating that prototype makes defeating the FB easier. Or maybe taking the reverse path, right before that prototype is sealed, it might have secretly casted some hidden spells weakening the FB's power without even being realized by him(to reduce the chance for him to be powerful enough to control that prototype again), and defeating that prototype voids its spells casted to the FB, causing him to be more difficult to defeat. Of course defeating that prototype has to yield some other rewards in this case.

Or defeating that prototype yields some extra information about some details of the project behind it and these details is completely optional to the plot(of course they still have to conform to it). These details may be similar to easter eggs.

Also, that prototype superboss being stronger than the FB makes sense as it's like a super weapon that is created by its intended users and is intended to the more powerful than its users yet controlled by them. As long as the FB can indeed control that prototype, it'll be a part of that FB's power. But if the FB can't control it, it won't be a part of that FB's power and in this case, it'll be more powerful than the FB, making it a superboss.

I don't know if this idea makes enough sense or is possible to implement well enough to make superboss really reinforcing the story and I don't know if any famous RPG uses this or something similar or this has been ridiculously overdone, but that's my try on this topic

 

[Ksi]

Yeah, except the FF7 bosses make total sense in-game. :/ Sephiroth may have had god-like powers but he wasn't a God. He wasn't born a god, he had the mentality (and a broken one at that) of a human, and that in and of itself made him flawed. So, yes, they make freakin sense.

I love me some huge monsters to kill, and I've heard a ton of them in the history of fiction and games that are there but not the primary evil. Dragons who could defeat the evil if they weren't doing their own thing, monsters that scare evil the baddie so they're chained or put to sleep, creatures of nightmare that follow the evil because they like his/her style but you don't have to fight. Hell, what are summons but eldritch beings that grant their powers? You can't tell me they don't count - in some cases they level up with the player so that their 'users' don't get overwhelmed by their abilities (think FF6 - those powers are there but it takes time for the normal humans to learn to use them because they aren't strong enough to handle those abilities), in others they're all but impossible to defeat (hello whatever your name was on the mountain area in FFXII with well over 1 Million HP points, you bastard) and other times they won't join you until you prove your worth to them by doing deeds.

Hell, huge-ass monsters are pretty much a part of most good lore in game or fiction. So I like em. They show depth beyond "oh look, such baddie, much evil, very beat, wow" and make a world and story much, much more interesting.

For a non-FF example - Suikoden and the True Runes. Sure, they get used by people, but it is hinted at more than a few times that the runes themselves have their own personalities (hello Night Rune, you lovable bastard) and their own plans. That they use humans. And yet, you don't really ever get to fight them. You fight those who hold and wield them, yes, but the True Runes themselves are eternal and unbeatable. Beat their holder and they just move onto another. They don't care for human lives, they are neither good nor evil, but they are there - an omnipresent presence through-out all the games. The last enemies may wield them at times but they aren't the Runes.

And I freaking love that. I do wish there were superboss fights against some of them but I'll deal with the over-evolved monsters that are scattered around, the hidden people who want you to beat them in order for them to join and the war battles.

 

[West Mains]

I like them.

I don't subscribe to the idea that its bad to make your endboss look weak in comparison. I mean, the superboss could the most powerful thing in the known world, but it isn't the boss, because it's not the goal or the badguy, it's just a creature that happens to be more powerful than the others.

But I digress.

Mon the superbosses.

 

[Julien Brightside]

How about optional bosses that may not be "stronger" than the final boss but who are still hard to beat.

Example: In the second matrix movie, Neo is trapped in a program seperate from the matrix that is a train station. The owner of said station is a weakling, but in that room, he is a god.

Or what about a computer simulation where the creator switches the parameters to cheat. (I think there's a funny scene in Fable 3 where a bunch of wizards transport the character into a boardgame world.)

WHat if the hero is shrunk and has to face off a normal sized spider or scorpion?

In Golden Sun 1 you have to go through an arena without your equipment and have to rely on scraps you gather throughout the arena.

In Breath of FIre 2 at the wildcat restaurant you can put yourself at a severe disadvantage by going naked and switching your weapons with forks and knives.

 

[hian]

I don't think it makes sense to talk of story immersion and battle sequences in RPGs for the most part.

It's like I said in a different thread, these sequences, the item effects, skills and character levels etc are all abstraction used to make a game out of something that isn't.

It's just like chess in that sense. Chess developed as a strategic mock wargame, but it's been so abstracted it no longer makes sense at all. The reason this has happened, is because the game itself works better that way. The rules and the forms of the game make the game interesting, strategic and simple at the same time.

Similarly, FF battles are abstractions. When you see how action sequences are portrayed outside of battles, instory sequences, cut scenes, and in movies like advent children, it should be blatantly obvious that the contents creators and writers don't see fights as being turn based numerical calculation affairs.

Cloud is never really level 1 or level 99. He doesn't have HP and he doesn't stand in place waiting in place for a gauge to fill up before he attacks. These are all abstractions, made for the sake of the player, and due to technical limitations inherent to the medium and current technology.

To say that it's strange that bonus bosses are stronger than the final boss only makes sense if that's what the narrative explicitly states. In most games that's not the case. Nobody in FF7, as far as I know, say anything about the weapon's strengths comparatively to Sephiroth's.

It's all in the stats, but they are irrelevant.

We know they are because Zack mortally wounds Sephiroth when he, at the time, only had somewhere around 100-200 HP, and not enough attack power to even deal damage to Sephiroth at all.

Yet, Zack is shot to death by two soldier grunts, which we know only deal about 10-20 damage on average with their machineguns.

We know that the original Sephiroth had around 3500 HP and was considered the strongest soldier ever, yet nobody bats an eye when Cloud and co exceed this standard general on disk 2.

I could go on forever, and could do so for pretty much every game ever made, not just RPGs.

Action games like Metal Gear are ripe with gameplay vs narrative inconsistencies.

That's just the way it is, and probably the way it's always going to be as long as games and people are limited, and people want to enjoy things through abstractions.

People who find that problematic probably shouldn't be playing games, or strictly stick to simulation games.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

the problem is that people try to correlate games into our reality and explain them using our reality, when the game is free to use it's own reality...

 

[hian]

the problem is that people try to correlate games into our reality and explain them using our reality, when the game is free to use it's own reality...

Well, to be fair, there is truth to criticism that attack narrative inconsistencies in and of themselves.

A plot hole is a plot hole regardless of whether the narrative is based in the real world or not.

The problem as I see it has to do with people who selectively apply arguments that critique inconsistencies between narrative and gameplay, when the gameplay in more or less all cases we could examine, are abstractions that are in place because of necessity or for the sake of making gameplay for interesting.

After all, we are talking about games here. Gameplay is important. If you're going to harp on about gameplay mechanics conflicting with the narrative, then at least do so consistently and honestly, right?

Yet, you don't see people going "well, since FF characters obviously have infinite pocket space, why don't they just carry with them airships and chocobos in their pockets?" etc.

For the people raising this criticism, it's essentially just arbitrary hating, that most likely just comes from a general dislike of whatever game they're talking about, because if they play and enjoy any RPG at all, chances are they're suspending disbelief and indulging the very thing they supposedly oppose in other titles that they for whatever reason like more.

 

[Kaelan]

Instead of having end-game or post-game dungeons and bosses, I'd rather have a NG+ on significantly higher difficulty (and with possibly new mechanics), like Dark Souls or the EX Hard Mode of Valkyria Chronicles.

It feels more consistent and meaningful to me - you don't end up with situations like mentioned in the OP: you beat the optional boss, get the best weapon, but because you've already beaten the boss you actually have no use for it as you're obviously stronger than everything else in the game already. With NG+ you don't have that problem.