Superbosses

[Julien Brightside]

Can you guys name any superbosses in any videogames that could be considered done right/well?

Please name something else than Final Fantasy.

 

[Mouser]

Can you guys name any superbosses in any videogames that could be considered done right/well?

Please name something else than Final Fantasy.

Xenosaga and the Erde Kaisers.

 

[Chaos Avian]

Etrian Odyssey 4 maybe?

 

[Lowell]

Etrian Odyssey was designed in a way that Super Bosses are expected in the game.

Not only do they fit within the games story (Post Game for the Dragons and some others, Elsewise they're simply FOE's that normally aren't required to beat the game but are often challenged by the player for their own personal reasons.)

 

[Zoltor]

Can you guys name any superbosses in any videogames that could be considered done right/well?

Please name something else than Final Fantasy.

The God Slime from Lufia 2

God from DW 7

As much as DQ 8 sucked, you have the final Dragovian trials last boss(he was epic, and one of the few things done right in that game, infact the Dravian trials is the only side quest in the game I really liked)

Off the top of my head, All 3 of these super bosses were done right, yet aren't in a FF game.

If you dive into the realm of Tactic/RPGs, there's basically countless amounts of well done super bosses(infact the Tactic/RPG genre has become pretty well known for super bosses).

 

[Vassim74]

Can you guys name any superbosses in any videogames that could be considered done right/well?

Please name something else than Final Fantasy.

IMO, the Star Ocean series (most notably the third game). Hell, the second game even has a private action (if an earlier one was triggered within a set time frame) that makes the final boss THE hardest boss in the entire game, and maybe perhaps even the entire series if you don't exploit the invincibility trick.

Anyway, I like superbosses because it provides an extra challenge.

 

[Mr. Detective]

The Golden Mage Knight in Tales Of Xillia.

Bass and Serenade in Mega Man Battle Network 3.

The Nine-Tails in Mega Man X Command Mission.

 

[Julien Brightside]

Let me expand on the question a bit.

Why do you think these superbosses are done right?

 

[Mouser]

LV 99 final boss boost... That is some crazy grinding right there.

I'm not asking for Superbosses to disappear, I'm just saying not every RPG needs one.

You're saying that having a superboss automatically makes a game "weaker", so you kind of are asking/suggesting that they not be included.

As for crazy grinding - getting to level 99 in a FF is nothing. They all have some high level grinding area for you to go to (dinosaur forest in FF VI - getting that great esper from the Brontosaurus or whatever it was). Try playing a stat-maxing game in Xenosaga 1 sometime. Or a complete sphere grid maxing game in FF X (which you pretty much have to do in the PAL version - sadly not available in US to beat Penance).

As to what made the Xenosaga 'superbosses' great? The Erde Kaiser's had their own storyline, both in the main plot and as a side quest. Xenosaga 2 made you continue the game after the game over in order to do the Dark Erde Kaiser fight and a couple of other things. The super Erde Kaiser in Xenosaga III is visible as soon as your character starts the game (after a short combat prologue). You can try to beat him all you want, but you can't win until you collect the three skills to break his shields, then the real fight begins. Xenosaga was also pretty unique in that the guy who is the 'antagonist' for most of the series and the one you're really going up against at the end is the Protector of the Universe - which is why he still helps you at the very, very end: you screwed up his plans, but he's still got his job to do... Xenosaga III also had a 'superboss' in the weapons development center (a good place for one, don't you think?)

Generally speaking, the final boss is for people who play the way you seem to enjoy: no grinding, just going through the game fighting what you have to and collecting what you can. Final Fantasy's have always had a very low bar for the end boss (see: VLL games in FF IV or V, the solo white mage for FF 1, and I know you can beat the end boss of X-2 at level 30 if you have the Dark Knight class and alchemist leveled).

Superbosses are for players who like the grind. who want to squeeze every ounce of potential power out of the game. The ones that level up on weaker opponents if it means their stats will rise more (Xenosaga I), or else doing things like maxing out every esper, or getting the ultimate weapons (Dark Cloud 2), or whatever.

The great thing about including superbosses is you've just expanded your game's potential audience to include both groups of players.

 

[aozgolo]

Todd Howard of Bethesda said one of his game design philosophies was "Let the player win", so you need to realize you will have players of varying skill levels and commitment to the game, some just want to experience the story and get through it, and that's fine, for those players you need to let them be able to beat (although not too easily) the final boss so they can finish the game. Final bosses in games are usually just the peak of a normal pace progression. If you look at superbosses however they are often a break in progression, You need to grind a lot to be ready, collect the best possible equipment, and of course do whatever it takes to unlock the boss, it deliberately halts the story, so they are perfect for people who enjoy the gameplay over the story. Superbosses allow the game designers to truly test the limit and fullest extent of the tactical elements of their battle system by giving you an extremely hard fight.

Personally I am all for them, they are optional and add a really cool goal for players who want to take advantage of the full game play.

However it is true that after beating the super boss, that the final boss is kinda weak by comparison. There are 2 options to this I can think of:

1) Use Dragon Quest VIII's version where you can't even fight the superbosses until after you beat the final boss. Of course this means still allowing the player to keep playing after the final boss is defeated. This isn't the same as a true final boss because even in Dragon Quest VIII the superbosses were still optional although they did unlock a "true secret ending".

2) Through some sort of story mechanic you simply make it where beating the superboss automatically makes the final boss harder (like Superboss Hard). You don't even have to explain it but this way you get all benefit of an optional superboss x2 without the negative aspect of making the final boss wimpier.

 

[Lars Ulrika]

 In fact, I find it more absurd that none of the kingdom's finest soldiers can do anything to the villain, but your hero who comes from the backwoods hills of a hick village and has never lifted a sword in his life can suddenly rise to the challenge and come out victorious. I find that to weaken a story far more than some optional Super Boss.

^

THIS. What kills me is not superbosses but more the "little boy who finds a sword and suddenly becomes able to fight monsters and become soon more powerful than any veteran in the whole world" syndrome. 

 

[Mouser]

RPG Maxim: The 'trash' monsters you meet in the third town will be stronger than the 'boss' you fought in the first town,

but no one in the first town ever thinks of asking people in the third town for help.

 

[Qeo]

Todd Howard of Bethesda said one of his game design philosophies was "Let the player win", so you need to realize you will have players of varying skill levels and commitment to the game, some just want to experience the story and get through it, and that's fine, for those players you need to let them be able to beat (although not too easily) the final boss so they can finish the game. Final bosses in games are usually just the peak of a normal pace progression. If you look at superbosses however they are often a break in progression, You need to grind a lot to be ready, collect the best possible equipment, and of course do whatever it takes to unlock the boss, it deliberately halts the story, so they are perfect for people who enjoy the gameplay over the story. Superbosses allow the game designers to truly test the limit and fullest extent of the tactical elements of their battle system by giving you an extremely hard fight.

Personally I am all for them, they are optional and add a really cool goal for players who want to take advantage of the full game play.

However it is true that after beating the super boss, that the final boss is kinda weak by comparison. There are 2 options to this I can think of:

1) Use Dragon Quest VIII's version where you can't even fight the superbosses until after you beat the final boss. Of course this means still allowing the player to keep playing after the final boss is defeated. This isn't the same as a true final boss because even in Dragon Quest VIII the superbosses were still optional although they did unlock a "true secret ending".

2) Through some sort of story mechanic you simply make it where beating the superboss automatically makes the final boss harder (like Superboss Hard). You don't even have to explain it but this way you get all benefit of an optional superboss x2 without the negative aspect of making the final boss wimpier.

I think that if you're going to make a superboss, those two are a good way to go.

While I like a challenge, I'm not into the idea of grinding. I don't want to bore myself to face the ultimate challenge, so I'd have more fun with a secret boss in some other genre like a mario or zelda game. In almost all non-RPG mario games the final boss is bowser, and in almost all zelda games the final boss is almost always ganon/ganondorf.

So if the villain is stale and overused I really don't think I mind a superboss in it if it's well hidden. If It's in a zelda game like Majora's Mask I wouldn't be so happy, since I was interested in the villain and the story.

This thread is starting to look like a "post whatever you find unrealistic about rpg's" thing.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Grinding isn't always boring, though grinding in turn-based games tend to be boring...


Personally, I like grinding during the storyline part. I just seem to have grown fond of it. Grinding for an optional superend-game boss is a No-No for me... I was like: "I already finished the game, why do I need to still spend time grinding???"

 

[BigEd781]

Love them. Love side quests really, especially end game side quests. There are quite a few good RPG's out there that I don't play as often as others because of a lack of end game side quests. Gives me something to look forward to.

 

[Julien Brightside]

Ah, that reminds me.

I read an article where Prof. Oak was supposed to be the last boss of the pokemon games.

Like, you`d return from the tournament thingy and then you'd fight him to show him what you had learned. (he would have the starter not chosen by you or your rival.)

 

[Kaiju Master]

Can you guys name any superbosses in any videogames that could be considered done right/well?

Please name something else than Final Fantasy.

Lord Baal from the different inceptions of disgaea, currently trying to get to level 9999 with one of my characters in order to stand half a chance at beating him at level 4000.  He seems to get stronger each game.  In Hour of darkness, I needed a 4 member team of level 9999's to take him down in his basic form which was level 4000 and had to double the team size and buff them to beat him.

Any of the secondary stories final bosses in that series requires insane levels in order to win against them.

 

[West Mains]

Ah, that reminds me.

I read an article where Prof. Oak was supposed to be the last boss of the pokemon games.

Like, you`d return from the tournament thingy and then you'd fight him to show him what you had learned. (he would have the starter not chosen by you or your rival.)

Did we read the same Cracked article?

you can still fight him with the right glitches or cheats tho.

 

[whitesphere]

Ksi - Often a final boss IS the eldritch horror.

Amerk - "I think I see the problem people have. The final villain wants to conquer the world, so therefore he should be the hardest foe. Right?"

To me it's not about what he/she/it wants, it's because it's the final battle before the end.

"In fact, I find it more absurd that none of the kingdom's finest soldiers can do anything to the villain, but your hero who comes from the backwoods hills of a hick village and has never lifted a sword in his life can suddenly rise to the challenge and come out victorious. I find that to weaken a story far more than some optional Super Boss."

You make it sound as though he immediately fights the villain after leaving the town. He gains strength by going on a journey that none of those soldiers have gone on. He/she starts out weak and ends up like a superhero. I personally like that.

That is a variant of the well-beloved, classic hero's arc.  The hero often starts out with no power (i.e. Neo in the first Matrix), undergoes trials, tribulations and perhaps training.  After all of this effort, the hero truly is a hero.  The concept is at least a few thousand years old (the Odyssey by Homer).

It's just not as impressive to have the game's plot be "Highly trained master soldiers go and wipe out the Evil Overlord, using the equipment and skills they already have."    Granted, that can work well for a certain style of RPG, perhaps one which is more puzzle focused. But many RPG players like to be rewarded for their conflicts, by the characters growing stronger, etc.

As for Super Bosses?  As long as they work well within the plot --- so there's a good reason why they wouldn't have taken over the Final Boss, for example --- they make a good final challenge for the players who really want to grind for post-game content.

Dragon Quest IX does this very well.  Once you defeat the main plot, there are a huge variety of randomly generated dungeons.  At the bottom of each is a Boss.  As your party grows in strength, the Bosses get harder.  The harder dungeons have stronger opponents and give better loot.    And beating a dungeon's Boss gives you a map to the next dungeon.  So players who want to grind have a nearly limitless opportunity to do so.  And there is a good in-plot reason why these Bosses don't take over the final one.