@Tai_MT Final Fantasy VII: What is still confusing you?

[SLEEP]

I want to argue about two letters in a character's name. Endlessly.

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Oh well I am just gonna keep calling her Aeris since that seems to suit her much better.

 

[SLEEP]

Her name is エアリス yo u baka gaijin.

 

[Ksi]

Well to be honest Sephiroth design is kinda...generic. There have been plenty of villains in anime and mangat have done the silver/white long hair with black clothes look before. Sephiroth just made it uber popular. One  of the earliest that I can think of is the main viallain in DQIV.

Cloud dresses like a girl to get into Corneo's mansion. Corneo is a horndog who is only interested in sex with women. Although now you have to wonder even if you get the crappiest of the dress items Corneo still wants to hook up with a Cloud. Ew.

Depending on which dress and items you got either Tifa or Aeris end up with Corneo and Cloud heads to either the left or right rooms. The scene changes a little when you head in and start threatening, but not by much - just the characters reacting a little different to his advances.

One thing that a friend pointed out a while ago while we were discussing FF7 (might have been Nessy) was that Tifa didn't call Cloud out on his BS about what their childhood was like. Is there a reason behind that apart from having more important things to focus on at the time/thinking he misremembered?

Gotta say, though FF7 isn't one of my favourite games, it is one of my favourite stories and cast and world lore/locations. (Of course, I'm one of THOSE who ignore anything CC or DoC because "Stop it Square! Leave my precious teen memories alone and quit fricking with them!" ;.; )

I never gathered the whole Sephiroth was dead and a puppet-master thing, (because why would he fly away dropping a piece of Jenova?) but it does make sense in a twisted way. Most else I thought was pretty self-explanatory.

Oh, and about the death scene of Aeris - a lot of people have said that Cloud was the one who killed her by dumping her paralysed body in the lake because *gasp* lack of blood. Never mind blood in a cutscene being a lot different to blood on a floor in a zoomed-out office building. So, if you're one of those who thought that was true, just remember that the game was initially aimed at a G+8* rating so they wouldn't have included blood in such graphic detail. Also keep in mind what Nessy said about the whole Masamune kills 100% stabbees. And lastly, the amount of time between her burial and her stabbing isn't shown. It could have been hours. They could have attempted to save her only to have failed. They most definitely checked her over and ran a scan spell (and probably tried a few Heals, Potions, Phoenix Feathers and the like) before dumping her body in a lake... :/

Speaking of said death... I had a theory when I was younger that the Holy materia was actually connected to her during her prayer and that the removal of the materia while she was mentally connected to it in such a ritual was what really killed her, carrying her consciousness to the life stream with it (since she didn't get to 'withdraw' from it).

*(or so the printed version of my Platinum version booklet tells me. It had later had a M+15 sticker on the case over the top of the printed version, but peeling that off revealed it)

 

[deilin]

Sometimes names are changed "misspelled" on purpose so English speakers can have a better association with a character. This was a great uproar in the 90s, thanks to bad anime dubs.

One example is Sailor Moon's Sailor Pluto. Setsuna guarded the Holy Grail, which for English people means nothing. Change her name to Trista, feminine of Tristus, and now you have a proper association. (Though, when Pluto was first introduced, she was name Celia)

It was after many lawsuits that it was decided NOT to change names in translations unless absolutely needed.

 

[SLEEP]

The interesting thing about エアリス is that her name is actually "Aerith" in memory, until the character naming screen overrides it and sets it to Aeris. reliable source

FF7's translation is bad just because it's bad pretty much, i've heard speculation (it's just speculation, nothing solid/official/confirmed/worth posting) but the name "Aeris" may have actually been a mistake, like... just a genuine mistake. Or at least, a last minute change. And that's why it was retconned in later spinoff games. (As opposed to a lot of SNES FF characters who had their name changed on purpose and forever)

"This guys are sick" being the most memetic mistake, but FF7 has lots of bad English, terminology inconsistencies, unnatural sounding phrases, I mean I don't speak Japanese or anything but come on.

This is my question: should the above exchange be my life motto because I think it should.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Yeah the translation of FFVII is really really mediocre.


I've said repeatedly that I don't really care if it gets a remake, but I wish it would get a decent enhanced port with a redone translation (similar to FFT:WotL).

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Meh to me the Lore of FF7 was powerful enough for me to ignore the spelling mistakes although I did notice it a few times but it never bothered me, there were some games with worse spelling errors and a few games I know today that still has spelling and grammar errors

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Its not the spelling and grammar errors that annoy me, it when details are easily missed because the translation makes them too oblique to notice.


FFT:WotL made a lot of details of the plot make more sense, due to the retranslation actually being well done.

 

[ShinGamix]

Ever since FF7 Squaresoft thought it was a great idea to have an unsavable female character in the story arc. Just like there is no way in any of the Chrono Triggers to actually save Schala? I <3 Schalla!

and was Aeris Pregnant at the time of him passing? She had spent a lot of alone time with Cloud? Checking the RPG tabloids for this answer...LOL!

Aeris, Chrono, Lucca, Lenne, and a slew of other RPG characters accidently get their name changed in translation?

but what interested me more in FF7 was Barret, Tifa, Vincent and Cid stories that weren't explored more (not in the spinoffs as I count them as spin offs and haven't played them at this time) in the game.

Who were Tifa's parents? How did Barret lose his arm? (That might have be stated in the game but come on the could have done a sidequest or something for it!) and what about Yuffie! I wanted to know a lot more about her.

but on the Caet Sith issue the reason he/it isn't a likable character in my opinion is that why do you really even need him in the game? I can't think of one part of the game that you really have to have it in the game and build a good sense of a story around it. but it had a lot of potential to be a truly awesome character. Also RedXIII meow mix anyone? Is he the griever medallion from FFVIII? btw could be close to it? They had hardly any effect on the game storyline.

but Sephiroth your freaking Super Nova was beyond epic but how did you get a camera so far in space with such a good picture..HAHA! 

What was the point of all these potential awesome characters for them just not to be explored? This is where FF6 gets it right. Every single character has some use and some backstory scenarios and uses in the games storyline. Even the bad guys and even the espars!! Final Fantasy 9 even does it and that's most likely why I like these games a lot more now that I think about it. FFVIII...oh FF8 I wanted to like it so much and was hoping it was like FF7..WRONG!

I suffered all the way through FF8 but the main storyline is dreadfully painful to me but the summons and the card game were greatly done. I am the only one who just likes the hell out of Moomba!!!

Final Fantasy VII did a great job on what Squaresoft was after at the time but lacked a lot of story potential for it's supporting cast of characters.

Oh and I think Final Fantasy Tactics for PS1 is one of the greatest games ever!! Sadly the DS games ditched every character and all the serious overtones of this game.

I need a sequel to this one and not an A2 spin on it either.

Red Chocobo Army !!! Choco Meteor FTW!!

 

[Uzuki]

Ever since FF7 Squaresoft thought it was a great idea to have an unsavable female character in the story arc. Just like there is no way in any of the Chrono Triggers to actually save Schala? I <3 Schalla!

and was Aeris Pregnant at the time of him passing? She had spent a lot of alone time with Cloud? Checking the RPG tabloids for this answer...LOL!

Aeris, Chrono, Lucca, Lenne, and a slew of other RPG characters accidently get their name changed in translation?

but what interested me more in FF7 was Barret, Tifa, Vincent and Cid stories that weren't explored more (not in the spinoffs as I count them as spin offs and haven't played them at this time) in the game.

Who were Tifa's parents? How did Barret lose his arm? (That might have be stated in the game but come on the could have done a sidequest or something for it!) and what about Yuffie! I wanted to know a lot more about her.

but on the Caet Sith issue the reason he/it isn't a likable character in my opinion is that why do you really even need him in the game? I can't think of one part of the game that you really have to have it in the game and build a good sense of a story around it. but it had a lot of potential to be a truly awesome character. Also RedXIII meow mix anyone? Is he the griever medallion from FFVIII? btw could be close to it? They had hardly any effect on the game storyline.

but Sephiroth your freaking Super Nova was beyond epic but how did you get a camera so far in space with such a good picture..HAHA! 

What was the point of all these potential awesome characters for them just not to be explored? This is where FF6 gets it right. Every single character has some use and some backstory scenarios and uses in the games storyline. Even the bad guys and even the espars!! Final Fantasy 9 even does it and that's most likely why I like these games a lot more now that I think about it. FFVIII...oh FF8 I wanted to like it so much and was hoping it was like FF7..WRONG!

I suffered all the way through FF8 but the main storyline is dreadfully painful to me but the summons and the card game were greatly done. I am the only one who just likes the hell out of Moomba!!!

Final Fantasy VII did a great job on what Squaresoft was after at the time but lacked a lot of story potential for it's supporting cast of characters.

Oh and I think Final Fantasy Tactics for PS1 is one of the greatest games ever!! Sadly the DS games ditched every character and all the serious overtones of this game.

I need a sequel to this one and not an A2 spin on it either.

Red Chocobo Army !!! Choco Meteor FTW!!

Unless you're paying super close attention to the Cait Sith and Reeve transitions, you'll probably miss their connection to each other, because he never out right says it. Everyone else back story is pretty muched explained in the main plot and there are sidequests to delve deeper into them. Tifa's parents are mentioned, but never shown, Barret lost his arm trying to save his friend (This was in the main story plot, you literally can't miss it), once you get Cid you can go to Yuffie's homeland and learn why she's obsessed with money and materia, and Red XIII learned that his father was a brave warrior and so travels with the group to help save the planet (Another plot point you can't miss). Cait Sith was shoved in so the party could have a inside look into Shinra's plans without it seeming too awkward on how the party learns what they are up to.

And yes I am also mad that stopped the Ivalice Alliance story. After Yasumi Matsuno left, SE was really butthurt by that, then when Revent Wings bomb they dropped that series altogether. If I were you I would check out his other games like The Tactic Ogre series, Crimson Shroud, and Unsung story (although that one isn't out yet).

 

[hian]

The biggest issue FF7 had, was that many essential plot points that tie together the narrative are only afforded to players who explore, and not presented among the main path of the game.

To understand Cloud and Zack you need to backtrack to Shinra mansion in Nibelheim on the second or third disc to see the crisis core flashback.

To understand Professor Gast, Hojo, Vincent Aerith and Sephiroth you need to read all the research material in Shinra building, see all the movies on the computer in the snow village, and find Lucrecia(spelling?) after having gotten Vincent in your party.

Only by doing all these does the plot really tie together and make sense.

However, most people won't do this. Many people who played the game when it first came out, didn't even know how to get Vincent, and internet walkthroughs weren't all that ordinary yet.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the OP is wrong about Sephiroth though.

Sephiroth didn't die, he fell wounded into the mako stream which somehow carried him all the way to the north crater were he was preserved.

The Sephiroth you're chasing, is one of his clones(the black robed men) which he controls through the jenova cells.

It's the clone that breaks jenova free.

There are different views on this though.

Most places seem to say that Sephiroth survived crisis core, and that you're actually following the real Sephiroth. The FF7 wikia says that Sephiroth survived, but that you're actually followed jenova that's being controlled by Sephiroth.

The reason I think my interpretation is more likely, is based on what I remember of the north crater events, but I might be mistaken.

In north crater, I seem to remember a cut scene showing the real Sephiroth encased in a materia or crystal of some sort, and the reunion event where all his clones jump into the lifestream to be reunited with him.

The reason I reject the FF7 wikia claim that the Sephiroth you're chasing is actually jenova is because 1) it's never stated in the dialogue and 2) the wikia is demonstrably wrong in regards to the scene where Aerith dies and you fight jenova death, which means that it isn't a credible source.

The wikia says that Sephiroth turns out to be jenova in that scene, but as I just played that scene I know that isn't the case. It also raises the question why jenova would change her form to look like Sephiroth anyway. It's a pointless gesture.

Regardless, I think it's safe to say that certain aspects of FF7's story is a bit unclear. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have so many contradictory views on what happens in the narrative. I do agree that the general gist of it is pretty straight forward. People who act as if FF7 is super-contrived, and oh-so-messy can't have been paying all that much attention in my opinion.

Edit :

The reason Tifa doesn't call out cloud is because 1) she doesn't remember the event all that clearly to begin with herself, probably due to the fact that she suffered major trauma from the event - her father got killed, and she got cut by Sephiroth.

2) and there is enough truth to the story to make it seem almost true.

Firstly, the only real hole in his story is that cloud's and zack's roles are reversed. Many of the details remain the same.

Also, Tifa never knew that Cloud never became a 1st class soldier, because cloud never told anyone because he was too ashamed.

Yet, now he is in avalanche, knows how to use materia, carries a huge sword and is really strong, so why would anyone doubt that he was a 1st class soldier? In light of that, his story almost makes sense.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Nope.


Sephiroth is dead. And that is not one of the clones, its Jenova itself. Both of these facts come from the Ultimania guide, which is a definitive source from Square, but there are parts of the game that if you pay attention to you will notice.


For instance, its mentioned in the game that the damage done to the containment unit Jenova escapes from is done from the INSIDE not the outside. There wasn't a clone that helped Jenova escape. She just left.


And why does it take the form of Sephiroth? Because Sephiroth is in control of Jenova. Its his will, so he appears how he likes.


Sephiroth is dead in the sense that his body is dead, it dissolved in the lifestream, but his strength of will allows him to refuse to be absorbed into the lifestream, and his connection with Jenova gives him a lot of influence outside of it as well. The body you see in the North Crater is his dead body being reformed in crystallized Mako by his will.


EDIT:


Also on the Tifa not calling Cloud out thing: She isn't entirely sure exactly what happened. She was seriously injured and remembers Cloud being there at that last minute before she passed out from her wounds, but isn't sure what was happening before, or how he knew all the things he knew even though she didn't remember him there.

 

[ShinGamix]

So if FF7  just has a bunch a weakened toned down Sephiroths I need a FF7 game where we can play the epic original Sephiroth!

and really they could have done more with the supporting castmember characters because they just almost seem added to the Cloud Sephiroth love story.

@Uziki And yes I am also mad that stopped the Ivalice Alliance story!!! Me too Really pissed off about it. and not FF12 either.

 

[Uzuki]

The biggest issue FF7 had, was that many essential plot points that tie together the narrative are only afforded to players who explore, and not presented among the main path of the game.

Well to be fair aren't all RPGs, especially JRPGs, like this. That's one of the reason why casual gamers don't play them, too much hard work to learn more about the characters and the world they're in. Sure it's easy to pick up a fighting or shooting game and go "Yeah! I'm beating up/shooting stuff!" and still be happy with what they have. Were as with RPGers we're playing an RPG for the story and characters. Most of the super good stuff in these games were found outside the main story and players who took the time to explore were reward for this with extra story development, extra bosses, or super weapons. Sure this was harder in the days before the internet and your parents didn't want to shelf out 20 bucks for the guidebook, but that's what made the find all the more special. When you took the time to explore and figure out how to unlock another portion to a sidequest and when you did figure it out, you felt good about it. That self-satisfactory feeling of knowing that you figured out a problem with little to no outside help. So yes, some of this stuff is hard to figure out and can be annoying too, but it's all in the fun and most of the time worth the effort to do it. 

 

[Archeia]

Also on the Tifa not calling Cloud out thing: She isn't entirely sure exactly what happened. She was seriously injured and remembers Cloud being there at that last minute before she passed out from her wounds, but isn't sure what was happening before, or how he knew all the things he knew even though she didn't remember him there.

The entire sequence of Nibleheim past she didn't say anything. Including the time she was touring Zack and Sephiroth. A few weeks/months passed by since then -before- the entire Nibleheim attack. There's no way she's unsure about that. Even Sephiroth called her out on it in the Nibleheim sequence and used it against Cloud to fool him that Sephiroth can control memories of people who are also unaffected by Jenova cells.

 

[hian]

Nope.


Sephiroth is dead. And that is not one of the clones, its Jenova itself. Both of these facts come from the Ultimania guide, which is a definitive source from Square, but there are parts of the game that if you pay attention to you will notice.


For instance, its mentioned in the game that the damage done to the containment unit Jenova escapes from is done from the INSIDE not the outside. There wasn't a clone that helped Jenova escape. She just left.


And why does it take the form of Sephiroth? Because Sephiroth is in control of Jenova. Its his will, so he appears how he likes.


Sephiroth is dead in the sense that his body is dead, it dissolved in the lifestream, but his strength of will allows him to refuse to be absorbed into the lifestream, and his connection with Jenova gives him a lot of influence outside of it as well. The body you see in the North Crater is his dead body being reformed in crystallized Mako by his will.


EDIT:


Also on the Tifa not calling Cloud out thing: She isn't entirely sure exactly what happened. She was seriously injured and remembers Cloud being there at that last minute before she passed out from her wounds, but isn't sure what was happening before, or how he knew all the things he knew even though she didn't remember him there.

 
The Ultimania Omega guide was outsources by Square to StudioBentstuff, who while working under SE's blessing, didn't have anything specifically written out for the guide by Nojima, Nomura, or Kitase. Neither is there anything to say that it was proofread by any of them.


In many ways, a lot of info in the guide directly seems to contradict things said in interviews by the creators.


It was released long after the original game (2005), after SE had produced loads of silly spin-off products that conflict with the original game's narrative, and even ret-cons previously established canon.


Furthermore, the guide was never released in English, and only fan-translated by people who had no means to communicate with the original writers for clarity, which is why most of these translations contain very large analysis and translator's note sections.


As a person who speaks, reads and writes Japanese, I can tell you that most(if not all) if these translations takes pretty large creative liberties with the source material, which is already written pretty vaguely at times in order to facilitate as much of the Japanese fan community as possible - a good example is how the guide treats the romantic sub-text between Cloud, Tifa and Aerith to avoid any clear implications that would lead to certain fans thinking of themselves as being "right"(a very normal trend in almost all Japanese media that involves open romance settings).


The guide pretty much states that Cloud and Tifa admit their romantic feelings for eachother at the end of the game, but Nomura has stated in interviews that he doesn't really care all that much about the romantic sub-text, and doesn't really know to this day where he intended everything to go romantically speaking. He made it vague to allow players to think for themselves how they wanted to interpret Cloud's feelings.


In either case, I know most people won't agree with this, but I only regard the original, Japanese FF7 as canon, and everything else as essentially fan-fiction.


FF7 is FF7. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant, because it was all produced after the fact, after the original team behind the game was fractured, and done in interest of catering to fans, new demographics of fans that joined the franchise after Advent Children etc, and making sure that there would be room for more spin-off material.


No clear text in the game refers to the Sephiroth you're chasing as Jenova, and most clear text seems to heavily imply the opposite. Similarly, no clear in-game text states that Jenova broke out on her own.


In the original FF7, president Shinra is killed with the Masamune, which wouldn't have been there if the Sephiroth that killed him came from inside the Jenova container - unless we're to assume that the sword was kept inside the Shin-ra building and then retreived, or that Jenova can form her body into hard objects as well (both assumptions would be unfounded as there is no in-game text to support either).


If Sephiroth's body dissolved into the life-stream, why is his body shown intact in the North Crater? Your explanation for this, again, is never stated in-game canon, but is an analysis of events based on how you interpret what you know of the Ultimania Omega guide.


The "Sephiroth is Jenova" analysis simply doesn't fit into the original narrative as is, without forcing the player to deny the events that clearly don't fit with it, and demanding that the player rely on outside-game sources to "explain" how things supposedly hang together and make sense.


Looking just at FF7 in and of itself, and applying occam's razor, pretty much renders this analysis unlikely.


Your interpretation of events is even more problematic if this thread is trying to argue for the simplicity of the FF7 plot. You can't really argue how the FF7 plot makes all that much sense, if you need to read an outsourced guide made 8 years after the release of the game to understand what is actually going on.


Still, as I said, I could be very wrong. I don't think we'll ever know beyond a shadow of a doubt though, due to the fact that we will probably never see the three main producers and writers come together to clarify the plot, and because the IP is now owned by SE, who has shown time and time again that they're incapable of treating any Squaresoft IP with respect.


Side-note though, I think you're entitled to your opinion, and I think your prespective is far from the most unreasonable read of the narrative that one could do, compared to some of what's out there. I think you're overboard if you think it's an "objective fact", and that it's objective because English fan-translations of the Ultimania guide seems to agree with it.


I've seen many people voice the sentiment that the Ultimania is as canon as it gets, but there is something extremely worriesome with the idea that a guide created 8 years after the original narrative, that doesn't always match up, is supposed to be more canon than the narrative that it's supposed to be a guide to...

Well to be fair aren't all RPGs, especially JRPGs, like this. That's one of the reason why casual gamers don't play them, too much hard work to learn more about the characters and the world they're in. Sure it's easy to pick up a fighting or shooting game and go "Yeah! I'm beating up/shooting stuff!" and still be happy with what they have. Were as with RPGers we're playing an RPG for the story and characters. Most of the super good stuff in these games were found outside the main story and players who took the time to explore were reward for this with extra story development, extra bosses, or super weapons. Sure this was harder in the days before the internet and your parents didn't want to shelf out 20 bucks for the guidebook, but that's what made the find all the more special. When you took the time to explore and figure out how to unlock another portion to a sidequest and when you did figure it out, you felt good about it. That self-satisfactory feeling of knowing that you figured out a problem with little to no outside help. So yes, some of this stuff is hard to figure out and can be annoying too, but it's all in the fun and most of the time worth the effort to do it.

Except that this isn't true. FF has since it gained mainstream appeal(pretty much since the success of the first game in Japan), it has almost always been designed with a mainstream audience in mind. I guess it depends on what you mean by casual gamers, but in this context I think it's safe to say that you're talking about regular gamers, not people who mainly play Wind-runner and Puzzle dragons on their Smartphones.


I agree that rewarding players for exploring is both important and an entertaining aspect of a game, but there is a problem if you need to go out of your way to understand essential points in the narrative, which make the entire thing come together and make sense.


The plot-points I refered to aren't simply side-quests, they're intergral to being able to put together the plot of FF7 in such a way that it makes sense, which is probably the reason why so many people either didn't get the plot, or thought that the plot didn't make sense.


If you don't see the Crisis Core flashback, then the rearrangement sequence of Cloud's memories happens in a vacuum, and that seriously damages the plot. If you don't know the backstory about Gast, Hojo and Lucrecia, that really damages the character of Sephiroth and his story-arch.


If you don't know the details surrounding Jenova's ascent, and the ancients, that damages the entire basis for the plot.


It's still possible to understand the plot if you pay close attention to the dialogue, but if they had made these scenes obligatory instead of optional, the game would probably have been more favourably recieved in later years than it has.


Even if they did this, there is nothing to say that they couldn't have made some other additional optional content in either case. I mean, FF8 had 4 disks. It's not like they didn't have more space to work with.

The entire sequence of Nibleheim past she didn't say anything. Including the time she was touring Zack and Sephiroth. A few weeks/months passed by since then -before- the entire Nibleheim attack. There's no way she's unsure about that. Even Sephiroth called her out on it in the Nibleheim sequence and used it against Cloud to fool him that Sephiroth can control memories of people who are also unaffected by Jenova cells.

Actually, several years has passed in the game since the Nibelheim incident til the point where Cloud relates the story of what happens. The Nibelheim incident is supposed to have taken course over a period of about 3-4 days.


And yes, as I said in my last post, it's quite possible to be unsure about events that only occured over the course of a couple of days, when those events ended with your home-town being burned down, your father killed, and then you getting cut down by a giant katana which nearly kills you.


Post-traumatic stress alone could scramble Tifa's brain beyond repair in any reasonable universe.


Also, consider the fact that Tifa didn't know Zack, has spent the last months with Cloud who now wears Zack's clothes, carries his sword, knows most of what happens in the Nibelheim incident as if he was there (he was, but not as a 1st class soldier), and now he is strong to the point that his 1st class soldier story makes sense, which means that Tifa has no reason to think that Cloud was there as a Shinra Guard rather than as a 1st Class soldier.


All this added together makes it reasonable to assume that Tifa herself might be doubting her own memories, thinking for instance that the Zack she met, was actually just Cloud, and that she's just confused about the haircolour, or something to that effect, due to PTSD or due to her wounds.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Also, remember, Tifa DOES remember Cloud being there. But only at the very end. After Sephiroth injured her, and Zack propped her up to the side to go face Sephiroth in the reactor, she remember Cloud showing up at the last minute. In her memories, he was there at the last minute. And he KNOWS, he knows all the little details of what happened that no one should know unless he was there.


She knew that there was something wrong, but there is way more wrong than just her memories and his not lining up. According to her memories he shouldn't even KNOW any of what happened.


As for the Ultimania Guide's canon status, I would say anything it states that doesn't contradict the game itself somehow should be canon. It may have been written 8 years later, but I would bet they had access to a lot of info we didn't, such as design notes and storyboards and such.


Also, the thing you are chasing being Jenova makes 100% more sense than it being one of the Sephiroth clones. You never in the entire game see any of the clones able to take an alternate form, where as Jenova is directly stated in game to be a shapeshifter (by Ifalna), as well as it leaving behind pieces of itself for you to fight every time you encounter it.


Also, ZERO in the death scene contradicts that that is Jenova (I just watched it). At the very end of the scene, it flies up and drops another piece of itself, which you fight. Actually it strongly SUPPORTS the idea. As it starts as "Sephiroth" and says "Because Cloud. You are..." *boss fight* then JENOVA says after the fight, "Beacause [sic], you are... a puppet." (Also, you fight Jenova-LIFE in that part, not Jenova-DEATH)


(Also, I would say that FFVII is not the worst offender in the "you really have to explore to understand it" camp. FFX-2 is REALLY bad about that. So many scenes in that game are optional and a lot of stuff doesn't make sense unless you see some of them).

 

[hian]

Also, remember, Tifa DOES remember Cloud being there. But only at the very end. After Sephiroth injured her, and Zack propped her up to the side to go face Sephiroth in the reactor, she remember Cloud showing up at the last minute. In her memories, he was there at the last minute. And he KNOWS, he knows all the little details of what happened that no one should know unless he was there.


She knew that there was something wrong, but there is way more wrong than just her memories and his not lining up. According to her memories he shouldn't even KNOW any of what happened.

Exactly.

As for the Ultimania Guide's canon status, I would say anything it states that doesn't contradict the game itself somehow should be canon. It may have been written 8 years later, but I would bet they had access to a lot of info we didn't, such as design notes and storyboards and such.

Of course they did, but a lot of issues also has to do with the translation work. The parts of the Ultimania guide used for the Jenova is Sephiroth part, are three paragraphs from two pages, one refering to the actual Shinra-building event, one to the event in North crater where you fight Jenova death, and one refering to when Aerith is killed by Sephiroth. Neither of these scenes, state that Sephiroth is actual just a morphed Jenova in the original Japanese text I.E the guide is paraphrasing with creative Liberty.

Also, the thing you are chasing being Jenova makes 100% more sense than it being one of the Sephiroth clones. You never in the entire game see any of the clones able to take an alternate form, where as Jenova is directly stated in game to be a shapeshifter (by Ifalna), as well as it leaving behind pieces of itself for you to fight every time you encounter it.

Actually, you never know what all Spehiroth's clones usually look like, because the majority of them are cloaked.


Secondly, if you're going to og by post FF7 material, like the Ultimania guide, you'll probably have to accept Advent Children as canon too, but Advent Children clearly shows a Sephiroth clone morphing into Sephiroth through an infusion of Jenova cells.


I'd be curious to know where Ifalna actually says that Jenova is a shape-shifter though? I have a faint feeling that this is true, but I can't remember where, and Ifalna has preciously little dialogue in that game as it is.


Your last point is moot though, as if it was the case that a clone broke Jenova free, the clone would be carrying Jenova with him.

Also, ZERO in the death scene contradicts that that is Jenova (I just watched it). At the very end of the scene, it flies up and drops another piece of itself, which you fight. Actually it strongly SUPPORTS the idea. As it starts as "Sephiroth" and says "Because Cloud. You are..." *boss fight* then JENOVA says after the fight, "Beacause [sic], you are... a puppet." (Also, you fight Jenova-LIFE in that part, not Jenova-DEATH)

I miswrote in that post - I was actually thinking of the scene in North crater when you fight Jenova Death, not Aerith's Death scene.


These two scenes both have a lot going for your theory - but non of them are explicit and still don't explain how Masamune got into Shin-ra building, or really why Sephiroth actually is in North Crater with his body intact.


The scene where Jenova Completes Sephiroth's sentence can easily be explained by the fact that Jenova and Sephiroth are linked through the infusion, and that Jenova is the one you fought, so she's there to complete the sentence. In other Words, Sephiroth speaks first, then he drops off Jenova, who speaks second line.


If Jenova is being controlled by Sephiroth in either case, there is no point in making this distinction as if they are two sepperate beings, since Jenova would in either case be speaking with Sephiroth's voice.


To me, this distinction in dialogue seems to indicate that the Jenova you fight, and the Sephiroth that flies off are indeed sepperate entities.


However, I reviewed the Jenova Death scene, and it seems to support your theory the most, as Sephiroth comes jumping down, and then you transition to the battle, and suddenly it's Jenova.


If anything, I think that regardless of which theory one subscribes to, some of the narrative is broken for it. But, how many FF games have a perfectly consistent narrative? Non that I know of.

(Also, I would say that FFVII is not the worst offender in the "you really have to explore to understand it" camp. FFX-2 is REALLY bad about that. So many scenes in that game are optional and a lot of stuff doesn't make sense unless you see some of them).

True. Another offender is Metal Gear Peace Walker.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Its said in one of the videos with Gast, talking about he origin of JENOVA. She mentions that it came in the form of dead mothers, dead brothers.


Also, we have no reason to believe that the Sephiroth clones can shapeshift, as Yazoo, Laz, and Kadaj are not Sephiroth clones at all. And we do know what at least one Sephiroth clone looks like: Cloud. He looks like himself. There is nothing to suggest that any of the others look like anything other than what they looked like before being experimented on.